Well, as Don has pointed out before, the value of "proving" afterlife existence (other than the relief it would bring to countless millions of people whose loved ones have died) is quite simple: Proof would give credibility to this whole subject and would open the floodgates to serious researchers.

Just one example: If the public knew that retrievals were real and that they were an important service for we humans to do, there would far more folks doing them.

I don't think it's especially productive to say, as Dude and others do, that no proof is needed. Maybe not for him, but not all of us have had his experiences.

Note for Bruce- The fact that I'm told something by a deceased person that I would have no other way of knowing, and then I find out that what I was told turns out to be true......that does not constitute evidence of afterlife survival.

The reason is simple- there first needs to be an ironclad "firewall" that ensures 100% that I didn't already know the information and had long since forgotten it before my contact with a deceased person occurs.

I've been to your workshop, and have heard attendees report that they were told thus and so by someone they claim they contacted.

The thing is, neither you nor we can be totally assured that what they were told was not something they had already known but had forgotten.  They can say they didn't know, and may be totally sincere in that conviction, but that doesn't rule out the possibility that the information was stored in their subconscious long before the workshop.

Wanting proof is not something we should apologize for.  After all, the Wright Brothers wanted proof that a machine could fly.  They could tell anyone who would listen that it can, but until that day at Kitty Hawk, most would not have listened.



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Roger,

I understand your point that even "verified information" may not mean proof of an afterlife.  Explanations such as "ESP" "mindreading" and the like are always brought up.  You say you would want a firewall to know that any information gleaned was not forgotten and then remembered.

Ah, if it were only that simple.  The fact is, that we are, at our most basic level manifestations of unique points of consciousness.  At times, it appears that we may access information that is known to the universe, but that we, as earthly individuals would have no way of knowing.  Cayce called this th akashic records.  Jung wrote of a collective unconsciousness.  In Monroe/Moen speak, there may be a hall of records or information center in Focus 27.

So how do we know if an ADC is an ADC or our own consciousness accessing this vast knowledge base?  How do we know whether a medium is speaking to our departed loved one, or accessing the information without true communication via ESP or another method of information gathering?  Where is the ultimate proof?  Some would say "we just know" when its real.  A subjective experience. 

That isn't very satisfying, is it?  Yet our conscious awareness must by its very nature be subjective.  Objective reality seems to consist of a physical plane where the rules are agreed upon by a multitude of individual points of consciousness.  These appear to us as unbreakable laws while we live (gravity, laws of physics, etc.).  Our rational minds like to make these laws immutable, yet we always seem to find exceptions that bend the rules.  Although we may cite certain laws in physical space as objective, we find that our own experience is always subjective. 

Take Don's dream,  for example, in which he wrote of having a lucid conversation with a person (perhaps a deceased friend or colleague- I don't recall exactly) at an outdoor cafe, and touching their chest to see if they were real.  On awakening, he knew it was just a dream.  Yet during his dream, for all intents and purposes, to his conscious mind it was his present reality. 

I put it to you that no one can ever pass your test of infallibility for afterlife communications.  One can always conjure up other plausible explanations.  What seems clear, beyond doubt, is that those who experience direct communications from loved ones appear profoundly affected and changed by the experience.  They feel the proof, apart from the confirmatory evidence.  And nothing can convince them that it wasn't authentic. 


Matthew

Quote:

Yes exactly. It's called the psi uncertainty principle. I think spontaneous psi experiences are meant to wake us up to the possibility that there is more than what we experience in the physical world. I don't think there will ever be concrete, without a shadow of doubt, scientific textbook type of proof of the existence of an afterlife. As mentioned, it can only be experienced and interpreted subjectively. We are consciousness. Everything else are metaphors used to explain experience based mostly on culture and belief.

Kathy

Snoopydoo--- this is what I saw-howver, not in my house:
A tall  bureau, mans dresser, mahogany or very dark like mahogany in color. I think 5 drawers. On the top was a folded paper with the word READ on it.   Perhaps someone on the blog did put that paper there and hoped for one of us to "see" it.  I don't know which house I'm in. ---

Now how do I prove it?  Maybe someone here place such a paper on their dresser??? cat

I do not consider Psychology a science. I would say it is an Art. There are no laws of Psychology that hold true for everyone and everything. I'm not saying it isn't helpful. It is therapy in the same way drawing a picture can be therapeutic. When you are dealing with the subjective realms it is an art, but there is an art to physics too, and certainly there can be a science to art but that art I find to be rather dull and predictable.

Just to let everybody know, I do often have dreams where I am fully able to read names and maps, etc. So, wouldn't someone OBE be able to read too?

Hello Snoopydoo.

  I just read this whole topic for the first time today. I can understand, being science minded myself, your need for concrete proof that oobe and afterlife exploration is genuine and real. However, I have learned that deductive reasoning through adequate research can be conclusive enough without direct evidence and personal experience being necessary for acceptance. I consider personal experience being the proverbial icing on the cake. I haven't yet achieved a full blown, self controlled oobe yet, but I'm patiently working on it.

  Over the years (I'm 49 now), I have studied many religions, philosophies, the occult, metaphysical, new age, ufology, paranormal experiences by many authors, and modern physics discoveries confirming multiple dimensions.

   I own and have read all of Robert Monroe's books and Bruce Moen's books. I've read many posts on this website since it was first formed. Most of what I have studied has improved my understanding of the big picture, which encompasses the physical worlds (C1), the focus levels, the higher planes, the lower planes, the animal and vegetable kingdoms, and probably more that I forgot to mention.

  My personal experiences are very subjective and could possibly be reasoned away as just imagination. Combined with the knowledge obtained from many outside sources, however, this gives me an unshakeable belief in what lies both within me and beyond this physical world, which is merely a Pitstop on the Road to Eternity.