Conversation Board - Why incarnate into poverty?

Neil Gordon

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Why incarnate into poverty?
Mar 26^th, 2009 at 12:24am

Why would the majority of the population of this planet (somewhere around 7 billion) choose to incarnate into abject poverty, starvation and hopelessness?

Nice life experience, that.

Has someone who can OBE asked that question? Looked into it?

What about those souls (of the 7 billion, in poverty) who die and get trapped in focus 23? Who's been rescuing them?

http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

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I Am Dude Super Member Offline Posts: 1462 Gender:	Re: Why incarnate into poverty? Reply #1 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 2:39am To gain experience and learn lessons that only those situations provide, the purpose being greater spiritual growth.
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seeking_answers Full Member Offline Posts: 111	Re: Why incarnate into poverty? Reply #2 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 2:44am but in future times to come wat lessons can one learn...look at the negative energies around....humanity is going for a toss..
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Neil Gordon Junior Member Offline Posts: 57 Gender:	Re: Why incarnate into poverty? Reply #3 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 6:36am The majority of conciousness that ever visited this planet would theoretically be stuck in focus 23 for eternity. Nice one.
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moonsandjunes Ex Member	Re: Why incarnate into poverty? Reply #4 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 7:04am It is true that this life is not 'fair' for so many. It is painful to suffer, and it is also painful to watch others suffer. What can we learn from this?
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Neil Gordon

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #5 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 7:11am

I Am Dude wrote on Mar 26^th, 2009 at 2:39am:

To gain experience and learn lessons that only those situations provide, the purpose being greater spiritual growth.

Hi OutOfBodyDude,

If life is a school, I'd like to see it with my own two (non-physical) eyes.

At the moment I believe we're either trapped in a spiritual prison (dumping ground) or one of the lower astral hells.

Just looking for answers,

Neil

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DocM

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #6 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 8:21am

First off, spirituality, and moving toward love of God and love of others has little to do with what we associate with the ego on earth (wealth, good looks, winning awards, etc.) That is not to say that the two are incompatible. It is your true deepest thoughts that get converted by the common subconscious mind into your reality. Born into poverty, there are those who rise up and out of it. Others don't. What separates the two groups? Their mind, their true deepest thoughts.

Money is not evil, neither is wealth, yet if you believe that they are deep down, you will likely either not be wealthy, or suffer as a result of your thoughts. In contrast, those who believe that our natural state is that of abundance, when the thought and intent slips deep down, usually find themselves at some point in those surroundings.

I don't believe we choose poverty or wealth before incarnating. Perhaps friends and family who love each other incarnate together. Perhaps we are meant to see, through living life, how our deepest thoughts and intentions translate into the real world. We are meant to learn the power of intention, the joy of focusing it on being a loving person, and the misery associated with egocentric selfishness.

You can learn these lessons in wealth and abundance or in abject poverty. Only when you have seen for yourself how your deep beliefs and intentions create circumstance in your life (I call it affecting probabilities), can you appreciate this.

Matthew

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I Am Dude

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #7 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 11:44am

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but in future times to come wat lessons can one learn...look at the negative energies around....humanity is going for a toss..

Generally speaking, the lesson one learns through encountering negativity is how to overcome it by realizing one's own true power and finding one's inner self's infinite source of strength and love. I have learned these things through personal experience, although I was not born in horribly negative conditions. Rather, my negative thought patterns created those negative circumstances in my past.

I disagree with Matthew when he says we do not choose poverty or wealth before incarnating. I strongly believe we have a choice in all aspects of our existence, regardless of our conscious ability to realize this. I believe we are each born with our own general "theme" to experience and learn different things suited to our own personal spiritual quest. I doubt we are just tossed somewhere on earth blindly. He is right that we choose who we incarnate with, but our free will doesnt end there!!! It is true, our deepest thoughts and intentions translate into the real world, and that is how most of our lives are created... and therefore, our deepest thoughts and intentions are translated into the real world before we manifest ourselves upon it, and so we basically think ourselves into existence here on earth by our higher self. We experience what we need to experience. This is decided before we incarnate.

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The majority of conciousness that ever visited this planet would theoretically be stuck in focus 23 for eternity.

I disagree. In fact, explorers are saying that less and less inhabitants are occupying these lower belief system territories as we approach the future. Also, since it is the nature of our consciousness to explore and grow, it's safe to say that staying anywhere for eternity is basically impossible. I would say only a small minority of individuals become stuck in the lower bsts.

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recoverer

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #8 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 5:49pm

Out of body Dude wrote: "I disagree with Matthew when he says we do not choose poverty or wealth before incarnating. I strongly believe we have a choice in all aspects of our existence, regardless of our conscious ability to realize this. I believe we are each born with our own general "theme" to experience and learn different things suited to our own personal spiritual quest. I doubt we are just tossed somewhere on earth blindly. He is right that we choose who we incarnate with, but our free will doesnt end there!!! It is true, our deepest thoughts and intentions translate into the real world, and that is how most of our lives are created... and therefore, our deepest thoughts and intentions are translated into the real world before we manifest ourselves upon it, and so we basically think ourselves into existence here on earth by our higher self. We experience what we need to experience. This is decided before we incarnate."

Recoverer responds: "I believe that a lot of negative incarnations are produced in this World not because the spirit World wants them, but because people keep producing them. Consider all of the kids that are molested, beaten and neglected by their parents and other people. I doubt that their souls require such lessons, it is just that as I wrote, we keep producing such lifetimes.

Here's another example. I saw a show where all these little kids are forced into prostition (a far east country, I can't remember which). An American family mortgaged everything, moved to this country, and helped some of these girls escape. Years later they are still traumatized. I really doubt that such experiences are required.

What about kids who are raised by satanists? It is awful what these kids have to go through. I won't mention the details. I find it hard to believe that such experiences are needed.

When a father starts beating on his little kid, it is more about him than what his child or any other child needs.

Certainly our souls are smart enough to find ways to grow that don't require the above stated negativity. If we keep producing such life times, what choice does the spirit World have? Should they find a way where they make it so a bunch of mothers can't have children? Should they make it so animals can't produce livestock that will be grown is harsh and cruel conditions? Should that Sodom and Gomorah thing happen again?"

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I Am Dude

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #9 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 7:53pm

Quote:

I believe that a lot of negative incarnations are produced in this World not because the spirit World wants them, but because people keep producing them.

Your right, Recoverer. And this is what I am saying as well. My point is that we have the choice and freewill to have any type of experience we want, and going along with what you are saying, these may not be ideal experiences, but produced from negative thought patterns and false beliefs- which is how they are chosen-from our belief systems and thought patterns.

Perhaps these experiences aren't required, but they are brought into one's existence usually through one's thoughts and beliefs- but some situations are also chosen in ahead of time, from what I understand. For example, maybe those children who are molested were themselves molesters in their previous life, and need to be on the other side of the coin to learn from their past mistakes.

There is a reason for everything.

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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.

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recoverer

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #10 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 8:13pm

Dude:

I guess it would be a matter of how reincarnation works, if at all. Going by the messages I've received and my figuring, something like a disk/oversoul sends out incarnations, and the probe that would be experiencing karma would be experiencing karma that was created by another probe. It would be taking one on the chin for the sake of the rest of the disk. Are their exceptions? Going by the messages I received, no. Of course, other people have been presented with differing information. I wonder if they looked into it in the same manner I looked into it. I really tried to find out if each probe incarnates just once, and unless I interpreted the symbolic visual message I received wrong, each probe incarnates just once.

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DocM

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #11 - Mar 26^th, 2009 at 9:37pm

While I seldom speak in absolutes, I must say Dude, that we will agree to disagree on this issue. I think you are way off on believing that we choose so much of our specific circumstance before birth; it would negate our experience here on earth - in some ways interfering with free will. My guidance tells me otherwise.

I'm still on the fence about the nature and frequency of reincarnation. Many times, when people are convinced that they remember a past life, they may simply be immersing themselves in a memory stored in our shared subconscious, and "feel" like it was their own experience. And the simplistic notion that if someone rapes and murders in one life, they are destined to be raped and murdered in the next life is not supported by reported NDEs or other experiences - but perpetuated by certain religious systems who believe in reincarnation.

That being said, assuming we do reincarnate cycle after cycle (a proposition I would dispute, as I believe many of us become guides, helpers, and continue ascending in spirit rather than return to the earth plane on a "karmic wheel"), it makes more sense that we could choose to congregate with loved ones back on earth rather than that we choose many specific circumstances prior to birth.

The only way an incarnated spiritual being can learn and experience on the physical plane is to exercise free will, and eventually create his/her own reality on earth. As we trace our beliefs and their trail to our subconscious and then the creation of real events in the physical world, we learn about our divine creative potential. It would be anathema to this "game of life" to stack the deck and choose all or most of our circumstances before we've actually lived. And, in fact, I would argue that those types of manipulations are deliberately not even possible - it defeats the purpose of the earth plane.

There is example after example of those born into poverty coming up with an idea of abudance/wealth and pulling themselves out of that situation by accessing their intent and creative power. This could not occur if some cosmic pre-destination were set into play before birth. We are born with complete free will, and if we believe in abundance, good health and success, we are entitled to it, whether in the physical world, or in the afterlife.

Matthew

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I Am Dude

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #12 - Mar 27^th, 2009 at 1:53am

Quote:

I think you are way off on believing that we choose so much of our specific circumstance before birth

I don't believe this. I believe that we choose our initial circumstances, perhaps up until the time when we are developed enough to begin making real world choices for ourselves. I believe that perhaps some circumstances are set up ahead of time in our later lives... and being that every day brings about thousands, if not millions of different possible circumstances to be encounter, this is not much at all. You are way off in believing that I believed what you thought I believed.

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ultra

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #13 - Mar 27^th, 2009 at 8:22am

Hi Neil,

Without even getting into the slippery slopes of reincarnation, karma, free will vs Gods Will, etc., I can offer that in my limited experience, I have observed many kinds of "abject poverty", many kinds of "starvation", and much misguided and ignorantly concieved "hopefulness" and "helpfulness".

Human beings don't even have to look that far beyond themselves to see this poverty let alone go to another neighborhood or continent.

I can surmise like others have, that your comments are related somewhat to a material orientation, and that is certainly a valid concern, but in my view this is the last place to look (at least exclusively) for either causes or solutions, even though they seem to originate there.

Most, if not all legitimate spiritual paths address the monumental issue of the endless recyclings of ignorance being blindly and ineffectively applied to attempt a solution to the results of Ignorance and the multifarious (even infinite?) ways it manifests on the physical plane.

Unless and until each person seriously addresses this issue of "poverty", "starvation", and "hopelessness" on an individual basis, the world will continue to manifest it on a collective basis.

Just my view.

Best regards,

- u

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"What the soul sees and has experienced, that it knows; the rest is appearance, prejudice and opinion."

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DocM

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Re: Why incarnate into poverty?
Reply #14 - Mar 27^th, 2009 at 8:37am

Sorry, Dude, my mistake. In fairness, I simply responded to your saying: "I disagree with Matthew when he says we do not choose poverty or wealth before incarnating. I strongly believe we have a choice in all aspects of our existence, regardless of our conscious ability to realize this."

That is why I felt we were so far apart in our thoughts. Seems like we may not be after all.

Peace

Matthew

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