Conversation Board - Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife

DocM

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Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Mar 7^th, 2009 at 11:14pm

One issue I haven't seen raised here on the board is the notion of subsequent deaths in the spiritual planes. There is a text available online, which makes a great read entitled "A Wanderer in the Spirit Lands," which can be read, as a free e-book at:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/index.htm

I found it quite enjoyable. It is a dictated text given to a medium in the late 1800s - at least that is how it is presented to the reader. It certainly could be a work of fiction. It deals with the death of a somewhat hedonistic and materialistic man, his awakening on the other side, and rise from the lower realms of the afterlife to higher planes. In it, I found his tale of a "second death" particularly interesting and logical. If we travel in the astral planes in a vehicle created by consciousness, much as our physical bodies are vehicles, it makes sense that our earthly "deaths" may be the first in a series, as we change vehicles.

Below, is the passage in which Franchezzo describes his second death:

"I was now told that I had so far freed myself from the earth's attractions and overcome my desires for earthly things, that I was able to pass into the second sphere. The passing from the body of a lower sphere into that of a higher one is often, though not invariably, accomplished during a deep sleep which closely resembles the death-sleep of the spirit in leaving the earthly body. As a spirit grows more elevated, more etherealized, this change is accompanied by a greater degree of consciousness, till at last the passing from one high sphere to another is simply like changing one garb for another a little finer, discarding one spiritual envelope for a more ethereal one. Thus the soul passes onward, growing less and less earthly (or material) in its envelopment, till it passes beyond the limits of our earth spheres into those of the solar systems.

It happened, then, that upon my return from one of my visits to the earth, I felt overpowered by a strange unusual sense of drowsiness, which was more like paralysis of the brain than sleep.

I retired to my little room in the Twilight Land, and throwing myself upon my couch, sank at once into a profound dreamless slumber like unto the unconscious sleep of death.

In this state of unconsciousness I lay for about two weeks of earthly time, and during it my soul passed from the disfigured astral body and came forth like a newborn child, clothed in a brighter, purer spiritual envelope, which my efforts at overcoming the evil in myself had created for it. Only I was not born as an infant but as a full grown man, even as my experience and knowledge had been those of a mature spirit. There are some mortals whose knowledge of life is so limited, whose minds have been so little cultivated, and whose natures are so simple and childlike, that they are born into the spirit world as mere children, however many years of earth life they may have known, but it was not so with me, and in assuming my new condition I also possessed the development in age which my earth life had given me.

In a state of perfect unconsciousness my newborn soul was borne by the attendant spirit friends into the second sphere, where I lay sleeping my dreamless sleep till the time came for my awakening.

The discarded astral envelope I had left was by the power of attendant spirits dissolved into the elements of the earth plane, even as my earthly body left at my first death would decay into the earthly material from which it had been taken,--dust returning unto dust again, while the immortal soul passed on to a higher state.

Thus did I pass through my second death and awake to the resurrection of my higher self."

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Berserk2

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #1 - Mar 7^th, 2009 at 11:38pm

Matthew,

Three possibilities intrigue me about your question:

(1) If we define "death" as disconnection from a physical or etheric body (i. e. a vehicle of vitality), then perhaps the transition from a lower plane to a higher one requires "a wink out" phase to mark the transition to a new vehicle of vitality that is better suited to the new plane. This "wink-out" phase can be conceived as a type of death.

(2) We normally associate postmortem ascent from lower to higher planes with an elevation of the spirit's vibration frequency. But is this higher frequency already achieved through progress in the lower plane? If so, why don't those spirits automatically ascend to a higher plane without the assistance of helpers? Or does the spirit's progress in the lower plane merely create the potential for a new life in the higher plane? If so, the spirit's higher vibration might only be achieved through a kind of "new death" that permits the soul to identify with a new vehicle of vitality appropriate to the higher vibration of this new plane.

(3) Bruce Moen, Howard Storm's NDE, and the Bible all suggest the possibililty of soul extinction in the lower hells. But what does this extinction really mean? What kind of death is it? Perhaps the extinguished unit of consciousness is not destroyed, but rather recycled with no identity baggage to hold it accountable for its past. It may be recycled with a realistic chance to become a far more spiritual person, though not the same person that was extinguished.

Don

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DocM

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #2 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 12:45am

There was another text written during the early 1900s called "Letters from a Living Dead Man," written by what they used to call "automatic writing. In it, there is a section on soul statues, which I posted once here before. I post it again, because it addresses Don's question of soul extinction, and the power of human intent or will to impose a type of stasis like unto soul death. Bruce Moen described something similar to this in one of his explorations:

LETTER XXXIX

THE DOCTRINE OF DEATH

Many times during the months in which I have been here have I seen men and women lying in a state of unconsciousness more profound than the deepest sleep, their faces expressionless and uninteresting. At first, before I understood the nature of their sleep, I tried as an experiment to awaken one or two of them, and was not successful. In certain cases where my curiosity was aroused, I have returned later, day after day, and found them still lying in the same lethargy.
"Why," I asked myself, "should any man sleep like that—a sleep so deep that neither the spoken word nor the physical touch could arouse him?"
One day when the Teacher was with me we passed one of those unconscious men whom I had seen before, had watched, and had striven unsuccessfully to arouse.

"Who are these people who sleep like that?" I asked the Teacher; and he replied:
"They are those who in their earth life denied the immortality of the soul after death."
"How terrible!" I said. "And will they never awaken?"
"Yes, perhaps centuries, perhaps ages hence, when the irresistible law of rhythm shall draw them out of their sleep into incarnation. For the law of rebirth is one with the law of rhythm."
"Would it not be possible to awaken one of them, this man, for instance?"
"You have attempted it, have you not?" the Teacher inquired, with a keen look into my face.
"Yes," I admitted.
"And you failed?"
"Yes."
We looked at each other for a moment, then I said:
"Perhaps you, with your greater power and knowledge, could succeed where I have failed."
He made no answer. His silence fired my interest still farther, and I said eagerly:
"Will you not try? Will you not awaken this man?"
"You know not what you ask," he replied.

"But tell me this," I demanded: "could you awaken him?"
"Perhaps. But in order to counteract the law which holds him in sleep, the law of the spell he laid upon his own soul when he went out of life demanding unconsciousness and annihilation—in order to counteract that law, I should have to put in operation a law still stronger."
"And that is?" I asked.
"Will," he answered, "the potency of will."
"Could you?"
"As I said before—perhaps."
"And will you?"
"Again I say that you know not what you ask."
"Will you please explain?" I persisted, "for indeed this seems to me to be one of the most marvellous things which I have seen."
The face of the Teacher was very grave, as he answered:
"What good has this man done in the past that I should place myself between him and the law of cause and effect which he has willfully set in operation?"
"I do not know his past," I said.
"Then," the Teacher demanded, "will you tell me your reason for asking me to do this thing?"
"My reason?"

"Yes. Is it pity for this man’s unfortunate condition, or is it scientific curiosity on your own part?"
I should gladly been able to say that it was pity for the man’s sad state which moved me so; but one does not juggle with truth or with motives when speaking to such a Teacher, so I admitted that it was scientific curiosity.
"In that case," he said, "I am justified in using him as a demonstration of the power of the trained will."
"It will not harm him, will it?"
"On the contrary. And though he may suffer shock, it will probably be the means of so impressing his mind that never again, even in future lives on earth, can he believe himself, or teach others to believe, that death ends everything. As far as he is concerned, he does not deserve that I should waste upon him so great an amount of energy as will be necessary to arouse him from this sleep, this spell which he laid upon himself ages ago. But if I awaken him, it will be for your sake, ‘that you may believe.’"
I wish I could describe the scene which took place, so that you could see it with the eyes of your imagination. There lay the man at our feet, his face colourless and expressionless, and above him towered the splendid form of the Teacher, his face beautiful with power, his eyes brilliant with thought.

"Can you not see," asked the Teacher, "a faint light surrounding this seemingly lifeless figure?"
"Yes, but the light is very faint indeed."
"Nevertheless," said the Teacher, "that light is far less faint than is this weak soul’s hold upon the eternal truth. But where you see only a pale light around the recumbent form, I see in that light many pictures of the soul’s past. I see that he not only denied the immortality of the soul’s consciousness, but that he taught his doctrine of death to other men and made them even as himself. Truly he does not deserve that I should try to awaken him!"
"Yet you will do it?"
"Yes, I will do it."
I regret that I am not permitted to tell you by what form of words and by what acts my Teacher succeeded, after a mighty effort, in arousing that man from his self-imposed imitation of annihilation. I realised as never before—not only the personal power of the Teacher, but the irresistible power of a trained and directed will.
I thought of that scene recorded in the New Testament, where Jesus said to the dead man in the tomb, "Lazarus, come forth!"

"The soul of man is immortal," declared the Teacher, looking fixedly into the shrinking eyes of the awakened man and holding them by his will.
"The soul of man is immortal," he repeated. Then in a tone of command:
"Stand up!"
The man struggled to his feet. Though his body was light as a feather, as are all our bodies here, I could see that his slumbering energy was still almost too dormant to permit of that really slight exertion.
"You live," declared the Teacher. "You have passed through death, and you live. Do not dare to deny that you live. You cannot deny it."
"But I do not believe––" began the man, his stubborn materialism still challenging the truth of his own existence, his memory surviving the ordeal through which he had passed. This last surprised me more than anything else. But after a moment’s stupefaction I understood that it was the power of the Teacher’s mental picture of the astral records round this soul which had forced those memories to awaken.
"Sit down between us two," said the Teacher to the newly aroused man, "and let us reason together. You thought yourself a great reasoner, did you not, when you walked the earth as So-and-so?"

"I did."
"You see that you were mistaken in your reasoning," the Teacher went on, "for you certainly passed through death, and you are now alive."
"But where am I?" He looked about him in a bewildered way. "Where am I, and who are you?"
"You are in eternity," replied the Teacher, "where you always have been and always will be."
"And you?"
"I am one who knows the workings of the Law."
"What law?"
"The law of rhythm, which drives the soul into and out of gross matter, as it drives the tides of the ocean into flood and ebb, and the consciousness of man into sleeping and waking."
"And it was you who awakened me? Are you, then, this law of rhythm?"
The Teacher smiled.
"I am not the law," he said, "but I am bound by it, even as you, save as I am temporarily able to transcend it by my will—again, even as you."

I caught my breath at the profundity of this simple answer, but the man seemed not to observe its significance. Even as he! Why, this man by his misdirected will had been able temporarily to transcend the law of immortality, even as the Teacher by his wisely directed will transcended the mortal in himself! My soul sang within me at this glimpse of the godlike possibilities of the human mind.
"How long have I been asleep?" demanded the man
"In what year did you die?" the Teacher asked.
"In the year 1817."
"And the present year is known, according to the Christian calendar, as the year 1912. You have lain in a death-like sleep for ninety-five years."
"And was it really you who awakened me?"
"Yes."
"Why did you do it?"
"Because it suited my good pleasure," was the Teacher’s rather stern reply. "It was not because you deserved to be awakened."
"And how long would I have slept if you had not aroused me?"

"I cannot say. Probably until those who had started even with you had left you far behind on the road of evolving life. Perhaps for centuries, perhaps for ages."
"You have taken a responsibility upon yourself," said the man.
"You do not need to remind me of that," replied the Teacher. "I weighed in my own mind the full responsibility and decided to assume it for a purpose of my own. For will is free."
"Yet you overpowered my will."
"I did; but by my own more potent will, more potent because wisely directed and backed by a greater energy."
"And what are you going to do with me?"
"I am going to assume the responsibility of your training."
"My training?"
"Yes."
"And you will make things easy for me?"
"On the contrary, I shall make things very hard for you; but you cannot escape my teaching."
"Shall you instruct me personally?"
"Personally in the sense that I will place you under the instruction of an advanced pupil of my own."
"Who? This man here?" he pointed to me.
"No. He is better occupied. I will take you to your teacher presently."

"And what will he show me?"
"The panorama of immortality. And when you have learned the lesson so that you can never forget nor escape it, you will have to go back to the earth and teach it to others; you will have to convert as many men to the truth of immortality as you have in the past deluded and misled by your false doctrines of materialism and death."
"And what if I refuse? You have said that will is free."
"Do you refuse?"
"No, but what if I had?"
"Then, instead of growing and developing under the law of action and reaction, which in the East they call karma, you would have been its victim."
"I do not understand you."
"He is indeed a wise man," said the Teacher, "who understands the law of karma, which is also the law of cause and effect. But come. I will now take you to your new instructor."
Then, leaving me alone, the Teacher and his charge disappeared into the grey distance.
I remained there a long time, pondering what I had seen and heard."

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DocM

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #3 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 12:51am

One could also wonder, if progression in spiritual planes requires casting off vehicles of previous planes (in the forms of deaths), how is it that some people die in the physical plane and go to focus 23, while others go to focus 27? One answer might be, that the earth plane allows people of many different spiritual maturities to interact in physical bodies. Physical death is common to all, but the spiritual destination after death of the body or vehicle can be very different for different people. I w ould venture to guess that is one of the facts that makes the earth plane unique compared to other planes of spiritual existence.

However, this suggests that the death of the vehicle alone does not imply spiritual progress. Some die tragic deaths due to drugs, alcohol or violence. Some are self absorbed, selfish, others innocent victims. So clearly the loss of the body (physical death) does not at all imply or guarantee spiritual advancement on earth.

M

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gordon phinn

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #4 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 11:52am

Thanks for all the useful and pertinent quotes re second death etc., DocM. There are many more scattered throughout the psychic communication literature; perhaps the easiest to access is Jane Sherwood's "Post-Mortem Journal", which has a great deal of useful information, including a description of one person's "second death".
There aren't nearly so many references in the contemporary literature, dominated as it is by mediums like John Edwards and James Van Praagh, but of course they relate almost entirely to the first "arrival" levels of the afterlife, where folks learn that they are safe and happy, and the adjustment to paradise-like environments is their biggest challenge.
I have a strong intuition that the second death can be, if you've done some spiritual work before passing, very simple and over in seconds, and I strongly suspect if you immediately move to focus 27 after passing, that you are already in what the old texts would have called "the mental body", ie the body one assumed after the second death.

Unfortunately, Monroe and all the folks influenced by his work, do not use these old categories, and one is left with such informed guesswork.

gordon phinn

DocM wrote on Mar 8^th, 2009 at 12:51am:

One could also wonder, if progression in spiritual planes requires casting off vehicles of previous planes (in the forms of deaths), how is it that some people die in the physical plane and go to focus 23, while others go to focus 27? One answer might be, that the earth plane allows people of many different spiritual maturities to interact in physical bodies. Physical death is common to all, but the spiritual destination after death of the body or vehicle can be very different for different people. I w ould venture to guess that is one of the facts that makes the earth plane unique compared to other planes of spiritual existence.

However, this suggests that the death of the vehicle alone does not imply spiritual progress. Some die tragic deaths due to drugs, alcohol or violence. Some are self absorbed, selfish, others innocent victims. So clearly the loss of the body (physical death) does not at all imply or guarantee spiritual advancement on earth.

M

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gordon phinn

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #5 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 12:02pm

Don, you ask about "soul extinction" in the lower realms; I have covered this in my second book and it is also referenced in several of the classic theosophical texts by Charles Leadbeater and A.P. Sinnett, sometimes under the rubric of "lost souls".

Usually through complete abandonment to crass, cruel and immoral behaviour and a surrender to what we think of as evil motivations, that person finds themselves after death in one or other of the hell realms and well and truly stuck there.
If there is no sign of striving towards redemption the "spark of divinity" is withdrawn by the Higher Self and the then soulless entity is allowed to disintegrate into basic units of matter, often rock or dust.
This process can sometime take centuries, although in those hell realms there really is no time.

gordon phinn

Berserk2 wrote on Mar 7^th, 2009 at 11:38pm:

Matthew,

Three possibilities intrigue me about your question:

(1) If we define "death" as disconnection from a physical or etheric body (i. e. a vehicle of vitality), then perhaps the transition from a lower plane to a higher one requires "a wink out" phase to mark the transition to a new vehicle of vitality that is better suited to the new plane. This "wink-out" phase can be conceived as a type of death.

(2) We normally associate postmortem ascent from lower to higher planes with an elevation of the spirit's vibration frequency. But is this higher frequency already achieved through progress in the lower plane? If so, why don't those spirits automatically ascend to a higher plane without the assistance of helpers? Or does the spirit's progress in the lower plane merely create the potential for a new life in the higher plane? If so, the spirit's higher vibration might only be achieved through a kind of "new death" that permits the soul to identify with a new vehicle of vitality appropriate to the higher vibration of this new plane.

(3) Bruce Moen, Howard Storm's NDE, and the Bible all suggest the possibililty of soul extinction in the lower hells. But what does this extinction really mean? What kind of death is it? Perhaps the extinguished unit of consciousness is not destroyed, but rather recycled with no identity baggage to hold it accountable for its past. It may be recycled with a realistic chance to become a far more spiritual person, though not the same person that was extinguished.

Don

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Cricket

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #6 - Mar 8^th, 2009 at 12:13pm

However, this suggests that the death of the vehicle alone does not imply spiritual progress.

To further belabor a metaphor...

Through life you drive many cars - in theory, each time you buy a new one, you've had more driving experience, and are a better, safer, smarter driver. However, in practice...not necessarily.

I've known a lot of people who don't drive one whit better than they did when they started - some are even worse, they've gotten cocky, and assume time spent equals learning, which it doesn't. If they had to take a practical driving test, they wouldn't test any better than they did when they first started.

On the other hand, some folks get very, very good at it with time, but still like to drive, and will continue buying cars as long as they still enjoy it.

What's that sound? Oh, yeah - a metaphor screaming in pain as it gets stretched way beyond it's limits... Grin

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betson Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 3445 SE USA Gender:	Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife Reply #7 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 11:39am Hi, those are interesting! Does anyone recall any retrievals reported to Bruce or Monroe that were done from the realm of these sleepers? I wonder if we have access to them ?? The Wanderer in spirit lands made his transitions while he more briefly slept, so that transition doesn't seem too worrisome. Betson
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Beau

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #8 - Mar 9^th, 2009 at 4:49pm

I like the idea of wiping the drive clean and starting over if you're just too nasty. Makes sense to me, but no one ever told me that a soul CAN'T die, just that that's not the plan. My dad always said, when he was asking me to use my common sense, "you can't burn a soul" and I get that, but I can see how a belief system can burn you real good.

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recoverer

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #9 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 2:58pm

Regarding people getting stuck in an unconscious state due to their lack of belief in the afterlife, not too long ago I had this experience:

I lay in bed awake. For a little while I experienced the viewpoints of a lady. I don't remember the specific details, but they were basically nihilistic. I did so in a manner where I didn't disagree with her way of thinking. After this exchange of information came to an end, I saw her. The feeling I experienced when I saw her stunned me. Her energy felt real dark. I believe this is because her nihilistic way of thinking caused her to be seperated from the light. Next, as is often done with stuck spirits, her spirit was run through my energy field. This energy field includes light energy that is run through me. Stuck spirits get cleansed this way so they can move to a higher level. It is really intense when this happens. The energy moves from my lower chakras to my higher chakras with a lot of force. This experience can be strange because I experience both the cleansing light energy and the cleansed negative energy at the same time.

One evening I saw an image of a famous man who many would consider evil sitting at a desk (he shall remain nameless). The expression on his face wasn't pleasant. His spirit was ran through my energy field. About a week later I had a dream where a person who was wrong about someting wouldn't admit to another person that he did something wrong. Then the later person saved the life of the former person. Because of this, the former person was willing to to admit that he was wrong. The dream came to an end, and while awake, me and the person/spirit I helped cleanse looked from the same vantage point back at the dream. I then received a message that this spirit had become a part of the light. I figure that if this spirit could be helped, then perhaps just about any spirit can be helped. The trick is to cleanse away the negative thought patterns that prevent it from ascending. If a spirit gets too bogged down by negative thought patterns, it might have a difficult time getting to the point where it can make the decision to ascend without help.

Back to the nihilistic issue. One evening I had a dream where I walked over a road that was on top of a bunch of people who believed in nihilistic eastern teachings. That is, teachings that deny the existence of an eternal soul. There are people who believe that when your body dies your awareness merges back with pure awareness and you no longer exist. Perhaps people who believe in such a way get stuck for however long.

Another issue that comes up is what happens to people who commit suicide? One evening I heard a voice say" "A girl who commited suicide," and then her spirit was run through my energy field.

I'm not suggesting that these spirits don't go through a period of being stuck for a while. The famous evil man died a number of years ago.

If anybody is interested in helping out in this way, help is needed. One thing that enables me to feel safe about doing so, is my spirit connection to Christ.

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Beau

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #10 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 3:56pm

So Albert, when you cleanse someone are you actually the filter for the process? What is happening there. I have read a few of your posts about what you do, but I am still a little mystified by the description. I could understand if you were leading said people to a process that would cleanse them, but I'm not sure I understand how you are the instrument for the process. I'm not setting you up or anything, I am genuinely curious about how this works for you.

YOurs,
Bo

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recoverer

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #11 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 4:14pm

Beau:

My energetic system has been worked on to an extent where a lot of spirit energy can be ran through me, and this energy does the cleansing. It is guided by an intelligence beyond my own intelligence. I just lay there and experience what takes place. Occasionally I'll get a message about what spirit is being helped, usually I don't. Some of these spirits are spirits that attached themselves to people and need to be placed someplace else. This someplace else isn't necessarily a higher realm.

In a way, I figure it's like having healing energy channeled through a person. Sometimes higher level beings use people with developed energetic systems to assist them with what they need to do.

You know, I used to have a lot of fear when it comes to negative minded spirits. A number of things have helped me overcome this fear. I figure I'm about 99% free. One percent is left over because I can be stubborn at times. Perhaps the fact of how I am able to help shows that I should be 100% free. Even if a person is free of fear, I believe it is really important for this person to use his or her discernment when he or she interacts with spirits.

Beau wrote on Mar 10^th, 2009 at 3:56pm:

So Albert, when you cleanse someone are you actually the filter for the process? What is happening there. I have read a few of your posts about what you do, but I am still a little mystified by the description. I could understand if you were leading said people to a process that would cleanse them, but I'm not sure I understand how you are the instrument for the process. I'm not setting you up or anything, I am genuinely curious about how this works for you.

YOurs,
Bo

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« Last Edit: Mar 10^th, 2009 at 8:03pm by recoverer »

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betson

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Re: Subsequent Deaths in the Afterlife
Reply #12 - Mar 10^th, 2009 at 5:59pm

Note to Newbies etc:

The above is Recoverer's own approach to helping 'on the other side of the veil.' It isn't the same as Bruce Moen's retrieval technique which is more frequently discussed and reported on this website.

Learning any method to get involved in the afterlife can lead to further developements. When we offer PUL, it is used in whatever way it's needed, apparently.

Bets

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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