Hawkeye:

Is pulling weeds or mowing one's lawn, the same as killing one's pet? Should a man who has pit bulls fight be able to use a: "You mow your lawn defense?

How about when we scratch ourselves and kill skin cells? Is that the same as killing a person?

The reason people and animals are able to feel pain, is because they have nervous systems that allow them to do so.

The reasons people and animals are able to experience fear, is because their bodies release chemicals that cause them to experience fear.

Fear is related to the fight or flight response. Plants don't have this response because they can't run or fight. If a burgler breaks into your house, you can be certain that your dog will respond rather than your house plant.

I believe it is rather obvious that plant bodies were designed to provide a different kind of life experience than animal bodies.

Sometimes our common sense does know better, than a detailed philosophical answer.

How is a person "ever" going to figure out the right thing to do, if he or she comes up with rationalizations, justifications and denials for everything.



hawkeye wrote on Jan 29^th, 2009 at 8:49pm:

  Hi Joe, i found your comments about me being too focused on the physical quite funny, and from many perspectives!  Especially in regards to me practicing vegetarianism out of ethical reasons. 

   Like Albert i was curious about your referencing to me as aka and AKA, and not by my name Justin, and truth be told i wasn't quite convinced by your explanation BUT that's another story, and as my generation or really the one after says "whatev".   

   I wish you the highest spiritual good, whatever your true feelings and thoughts towards me, or towards Yeshua, or Albert for that matter.

  It's kind of silly to argue about Yeshua, and its not something I think he appreciates, so i will stop here. 

No Justin, aka really meant aka. (Not the "aho" that I had used in the past during another conversation between us.) For me it really is just being lazy. I commend you for taking a stand with your vegetarianism along with Albert. You should always do what you feel is right. Just because I believe all things equal, and it would seem that both Albert and yourself believe differently is no problem. We would make pretty boring conversation if we all thought along the same lines. As my beliefs allow for even the worst of our humanity into heaven when they are forgiven by themselves and/or by the Creator, some here can't have it within their realities. As I don't know I don't really know why you practice vegetarianism. I am sure they are very valid. I have no problems with or ill feelings towards you, Albert, or Yeshua. I don't understand where would come from. What the real justification for the thought, only you would know. Some time back I had mentioned I didn't like men with red hair. You took quite an offence to the statement. You thought I was Joe Eagle or someone like that I recall, also. Both of us have something or some reason for the rub. Perhaps a past life thing.
I just recalled a story. There was this girl I know who is into David Ike. Big time. Pushing the whole reptilian agenda thing and all. She knew I was off to TMI for a week and upon my return really wanted me to listen to David tapes and seminar. When I explained to her my thinking, she just couldn't get it, and then she told me how desperately she wanted to put her brain into my head. I got quite the giggle out of it. Thought "No thanks, I am happy with my brain".
I wish the All of you the highest of spiritual wellness right back aka. If I have offended you, I know your beliefs couldn't allow you to hold it against me. That wouldn't be very Yeshua like.
Joe

 Hi Joe,

 Thanks for the further explanation, and yes your past derogatory references to me is part of why i thought perhaps there was another reason for you call me aka.  Thought maybe it was a snide little personal joke designed to poke another for a reaction.  I will say that on at least a few occasions, i did not get a very sincere vibe from you.

  Re: vegetarianism, i do not personally care if you become a vegetarian, nor am i trying to convert you.   I never wanted this to become a discussion about vegetarianism to begin with.

 You wrote earlier re: Recoverer, Quote:


 I was trying to make a roundabout point that if Albert didn't think all Beings were essentially equal, One, and if he didn't respect other beings besides Yeshua, then I doubt he would be a vegetarian.  He is a vegetarian out of respect, consideration, and concern for animals and the intense physical pain and emotional fear they often go through to become a persons meal.  

 I asked you what about you, do you walk the walk more purely, or more talk the talk.  

 As i explained to you before, you are right, all energy, all consciousnesses are connected and essentially One and equal in that sense.  

 Yet, there are obvious differences in physical, and otherwise, between say plants, animals, and humans.  Within that comparison, both many animals (particularly foul and especially any mammals), are like humans in that they can experience intense pain and emotional fear.  

 Plants do not, they are just no designed that way.  It is simple compassion, simple decency, simple respect for the concern for other beings different, yet connected to and similar to humans, to NOT contribute to the torture and killing of animals unless one absolutely NEEDS TO IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.   Most people i know in this day and age, do not need to contribute to the torture and killing of animals to survive.  

  What I and Albert are talking about, is simple common sense relating to having compassion for another beings acute suffering both physically and emotionally.  Plants just aren't built that way, their consciousness and bodies are different, though they are connected and One with All, just as All life is.  

 These reasons in relation to animals, are the same reasons I wouldn't torture or kill a human for food.   Would you?  I wouldn't think so.   Why, if animals, plants, and humans are exactly alike?    

 With that said, if one feels they must eat meat, then ideally, ethically, they would benefit from getting meat from animals raised and slaughtered in the most humane ways possible.  Or animals hunted with little awareness of same, and quickly killed.  

 I've gotten guidance that in the days to come, i may need to occasionally hunt and eat flesh in order to survive, and if it becomes that much of a necessity than i suppose i would have to do it occasionally.   But, i would never ever again contribute to the corrupt, totally inhumane, torturous mainstream meat and dairy world.  

  Those who do and don't think twice about it, well it indicates something about them and their "Heart openness" or rather lack thereof.  It indicates that they care more for shallow, hedonistic material pleasures than another being who feels acute physical pain and emotional fear like themsevles.  

 To not contribute at all to this monster machine of conventionally raised "food", takes at first some discipline and self sacrifice.  It is far easier to stay in ones negative and nonconstructive ways.  It is easy to make excuses, to rationalize, in order to not commence with self change.  It is easy to put the little self above others.   Hence collective human tendencies, and why the world and many people in same is so imbalanced and lacking in real love.  

 Perhaps this is why I have sensed and met many more older Souls, a much higher percentage who are vegetarian or vegan in lifestyle, than i have in the carnivore world.  And often, in the carnivore world, many of the older Souls i've met, tended to eat very little meat compared to the average Westerner and especially American.

 Another benefit of going meatless beyond the compassion to animals issue, is that you are not contributing to the pollution of the Planet and thus to the ill health of ALL WITHIN IT.   Giant "livestock" agribusiness is responsible for a lot of pollution that goes on.

 With all the above said, it would be hard for most people who are say living in the climate and ways of the traditional Eskimos to go completely meatless, for meat is one of the only foods around, and also more heat producing than most veggie foods.   Yet, theoretically it could be doable.  
I recently watched a weather channel show about a man who lives in the far north of Alaska, wherein it regularly drops to 50 below not even considering the wind chill.   He, even in the long, dark winter, only wears a t-shirt, some pants, and gloves for his hands.  An example of "mind over matter".   Such will power and belief, could also alter the seeming physical need for "meat" in ones diet as well.  

 I'm not black and white about this, or any subject.  I see the relativity in all situations.  

 As ever, actions speak much louder than typed words.  There is nothing else i could say or outline about this particularly topic, so i am done.   Be a conventional meat eater, a more ethical meat eater, be a vegetarian, be a vegan, i could personally not care that much about it one way or another, but your arguments lack plain common sense and logic, but speak much more of the need or wanting to believe something out of attachment NOT "Love" and "heart openness" which you so threw in Alberts face earlier.  

I never try to talk my friends and relatives into becoming vegetarians.  However, if the subject comes up.

There have been a couple of times when I tried to share the story behind veal to people, but they "really" didn't want to hear what I had to say. They chose to remain ignorant about the matter.

Robert, Would I be welcome into this church you speak of? You can see my tolerance level. I wish you good luck and God speed. You would serve your community well.
Joe

Justin,
"To me, this does not mean that one necessarily allows themselves to become a doormat.  There are times to say "no", there are times to walk away, there are times to defend or speak up about principles, but ever its the intent, the motivation, etc behind an action which makes it growth producing or limiting for a person."

Your thoughts sound healthy.

The bible quote says bend over backwards to me, the sort of thing an oppressor would love. Played a computer game yesterday called Fable 2. A dark character in the game hit me three times, and he wanted me to say 'thank you' after each hit. He stated it was because he wanted to teach me to be obedient, and not to question his will.

"Do you defend/resist more for your own negative tendencies and feelings (like revenge), or for higher principles and the good of the All.  Things like this are important to consider, and each situation can be different in the call of what kind of reaction is best for both oneself and the collective."

What's the good of the All?

"He showed that there is no such thing as a "victim" for a fully Source attuned consciousness. He had the ability to easily wither those who "attacked", lied about, tried to manipulate, tortured, and viciously murdered him and for what, because he spoke the truth (sometimes critically) and loved others."

Story-lines designed for the listener/reader to sympathize with the blood drenched character of the story. Manipulation of the feelings. Another story includes planes and towers.

"Instead of withering, he looked past these ill intentioned and spiteful actions and feelings towards his little self, loved them just as much as he loved those who agreed with and treated him well, and he said even while being strung up "forgive them Father for they know not what they do."  He realized that spiritually, they were as children and didn't yet know better."

As I child I once said that god wasn't home when I didn't see the funeral car outside the church. I didn't know any better. 'Let all the children come to me, do not stop them'.

"We see a somewhat similar, though less extreme and dramatic example, in the Tibetan Monks and how they are dealing with the Chinese gov. and their mistreating of the Tibetans. Is this weakness, is compassion/love weak, or is it really the strongest stuff around?"

I was in Dharamsala about 10 years ago and listened to a Tibetan monk tell about his exp. It was more extreme than any religious story I've heard.

"What would you advocate, them buying up arms and attacking the Chinese in return?"

That's your projection. I don't know what they should do, all the individuals have to find that out for themselves.
   
"Perhaps you would, but are you as spiritually attuned as a human can become?"

I'm not a human, but having a human experience. That's good attunement in my book, and yet I've got far to go. Right back at you; are you as spiritually attuned as you can become?

"Say theoretically Jesus really did live as a historical person, and the N.T. while skewed somewhat, is overall true, would you say that you are more aware and consciousness expanded than he was?"

Am I, as an incarnation, one piece of the whole self, more advanced than an astral construct? Yes.