Don/Berserk:

I believe that new agers do more to help this World than you think. What's really going to change this World is when enough people live according to love to an extent, where the World's vibrational rate will make it hard for negativity to exist. A lot of new agers might not be interested in scripture, but they are interested in love. There is also the matter of some people performing valuable spirit work that can't be known about in an outer way, but is known about at the spirit level of existence.  I figure a lot of new agers are the people who perform such work.

I believe it is great that your church provides the services it provides; however, it isn't the only way to provide service.

[Beau:] "He wanted covenant not an excuse to get the church's way in the world."
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Holy Communion expresses the New Covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and elsewhere.  Beyond that "covenant" is not a major theme in Jesus' teaching.

[Beau:] "I know as much as christianity as anybody.
and I don't think Jesus would have been one."
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Really?  You don't even seem to know tha basics!  You apparently don't even realize that Jesus Himself established the church:
"I tell you, you are Peter [whose name means "rock" in Aramaic] and on this rock I will built MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.  And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 16:17-19)."

Jesus established the church to spread His teachings: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I commanded you.  And surely I am with you always to the very end of the age (Matthew 28:16-20)."

Jesus established the criterion by which unbelievers could recognize true Christianity--the mutual love among Christians: "As I have loved you, you must love one another.  By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you love each other (John 13:24-25)."  We attract new members because local people are impressed by all the practical ways our members express their love for each other.

[Beau:] "The church (Not all but most) are money machines...Money Changers if you will...many of them do their good works ultimately to get their tax exemptions."
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Ministries to the poor and needy cost money.  Christians who love the poor gladly donate to express their love of God and humanity.  The essence of prejudice is to stereotype a whole race or organization on the basis of its worst exemplars. Your spiritual quest is worthless unless you grasp the significance of this insight.  By the way, we have two Sunday services.  The first one attracts pre-Christians; so we don't even take up an offering in that service!  Many churches ask uncommitted spiritual seekers NOT to feel obligated to donate money!

Good works have nothing to do with a church's tax exempt status.  It is tax exempt by virtue of its status as a religious organization.

[Beau:] "I'm just tired of Jesus and Church being synonymous. I don't think it's what he wanted...if he existed and I hope he did, but saying to me---"Oh yeah, Beau, he existed" isn't enough for me.
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Obviously, you don't know the case for Jesus' existence.  Are you even open-minded enough to care whether such proof is available?  I can provide such a demonstration from Jewish and archaeological sources and sources in direct contact with Jesus' disciples.  I can also expose you to the ancient version of Jesus' life circulated by His detractors!

Yours till the deserts freeze and the camels come skating home,

Don

Beau,

You are accountable for the plain meaning of your words and it is this meaning that I have taken seriously.  You made claims about what Jesus taught and what He believed and I have addressed your claims point by point.  It's OK with me that you choose to evade the issues you raise.  It's even intellectually respectable to reject the claim that Jesus performed miracles and rose from the dead, just as it is respectable to deny postmortem survival.  But you raised the issue of whether Jesus' very existence can be established and I engaged that claim.  Say what you mean and mean what you say.  I pressed you on the issues you raise because I wanted to see if you are capable of honest and open dialogue.  Such dialogue can require a lot of research and I don't like to argue for the sake of arguiing.  I am putting myself out for the atheist/ agnostic group that iinvited me because I determined that they are serious about learning new ways to handle vexing questions about the paranormal and the afterlife.

Don

It sounds like you would be interested in a thread on patterns of Jesus' words and deeds manifested in NDEs and the extent to which these patterns confirm or deviate from the Jesus of Scripture.  As I see it, atheist Howard Storm's book "My Descent into Death" has the richest "astral Jesus" material.  But the NDE that started the modern NDE movement (psychiatrist George Richie's NDE) is also useful.

Don

Beau,

Fair enough.  I initially came to this site because I was excited about mastering astral projection and performing retrievals.  I had perfomed a very emotionally powerful retrieval of an old girlfriend who committed suicide.  Then I learned to develop my skills in lucid dreaming and became convinced that my retrieval and my other OBEs were merely lucid dreams about OBEs with no relevance to spiritual realms.  In a lucid dream you know that you are dreaming in the dream and that insight makes everything incredibly real and well defined.  I learned that leading experts on lucid dreams dismiss OBEs as misunderstood lucid dreams.   So then I became obsessed with the question of whether retrievals and partnered astral exploration could provide convincing verifications. After hanging around this site for several years and reading all the reports on such experiences, I became convinced that none of thsee reports are genuine. The verifications are not what you would expect from the real thing and the deafening silence of unmet expectations seemed to refute such claims.  For this reason, I abandoned this site and will probably do so again once the novelty of my return and the lack of exciting new verifications fails to materialize here. Still, it is fun to create a lucid dream of floating up near the ceiling and looking down on your sleeping body, even if you later realize it isn't real!

Don

Beau:

Regarding retrievel verifications, different people have different roles to play in this game of life. I'm not surprised that Don didn't become involved with retrievels in a way he could confirm, because he seems to have a different role to play in life. If a person wants to open up to the World of spirit so he or she can help out, he or she needs to be willing to let go of the beliefs that prevent he or she from doing so. If a person comes to the conclusion that unless what they experience in the spirit World closely matches what the Bible says, something demonic must be in play, it is possible this person won't have the openess of spirit that will enable he or she to make contact with the spirit World in a way that is significant enough for he or she to help with retrievels.

When it comes to the retrievel work I do, I've helped all kinds of beings. I don't believe it is my place to judge them. If the light beings I work with figure a spirit needs help, that's good enough for me. Early on in the process I received some verifications that let me know that what I was experiencing was beyond my imagination. Once I became certain of the fact that I'm working with beings who represent the light, it became unnecessary for me to keep obtaining verifications. I've found that the light beings I work with aren't going to get me involved with something unless there is a reason to do so. It would be unreasonable and impracticle for me to expect them to repeatedly come up with information that can be verified.

I don't believe it is about satisfying the cynics with all kinds of empirical evidence. It is more of a matter of some people wanting to help so much, that they are willing to let go of their limiting ideas to an extent, so they can find out how things actually are.

You can't get an accurate reading of what it is like to make contact with spirit beings by reading a bunch of books and picking and choosing according to what matches up with your pre-existing beliefs. You have to be willing to put yourself on line, take a chance, have some faith that light beings will be there for you if you have good intentions, and give it a goooooooooooo.

recoverer, it rairly gets better put than how you have put it. What I experience retrieval wise is verified to me. I have no doubts about the authenticity. Don seems to have a  "need" for proof before he can believe in retrievals.
I have also had the opportunity to have my life touched personally by God. There is no doubt about the experience happening. Yet "proof"...there is none.  How do I prove it. I believe that some, like Don, are still on their search but have yet to find what they are looking for. I was fortunate enough to just open my heart, and he was there.