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My struggle with understanding good and evil (Read 19406 times)
Alan McDougall
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My struggle with understanding good and evil
Dec 25th, 2008 at 2:19pm
 
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This is an essay I wrote long ago trying to reconcile evil with ta God of purity , love  and goodness.

All This is my own peculation and any views would be most appreciated


Origin of Evil.

Here are my conclusions on the origin of EVIL:

ALAN MCDOUGALL
..

I cannot comprehend the view that a perfect, good; loving god of pure light could ever conceive the concept of evil in his totally pure and holy mind.

Evil is totally opposite to gods absolute goodness, completely alien to his innate intrinsic nature and essence. All evil is a monstrous abomination to God. God is perfect and would, therefore, not permit the concept of evil to originate or exist in his perfect holy mind or in his presence of pure light.

How then could god create a being  with the "potential" for the utter evil that we see all around us on planet earth and in the universe? (Lucifer, eve, Adam, some of mankind)? Lucifer was perfect when created! Adam was innocent!

How could a perfect being like Lucifer become corrupt? I like to use the analogy of the perfect motor car .a perfect motor car would simply last forever in its original perfect condition. Except less than one condition "outside destructive interference".

The very same result would be with a perfect being such as Lucifer! (Who told him he was beautiful? certainly not God!) God would never write into his book of existence the concept or possibility of a malignant thing such as evil.

Evil must, therefore, have originated outside of his perfect self and mind! What possible use could evil be to god?

-God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all - present) and omniscient (all - knowing) he is however not "everything" god is "light" and in him is no "darkness whatsoever!" ,

Therefore, "darkness" must be an external something separate from Himself.


I know from experience, that the source of EVIL and its origin is from some external eternal monster that lurks remote from god in the primeval darkness of the deep (Gen 1:1). I call this place the "void"(hell). I am convinced that the ‘(‘VOID’) is HELL by a terrifying personal experience during a near death episode.

I was shown an evil monster of almost infinite intelligence lurks in the deepest darkness of the void (hell), while there. It is this eternal monster that I believe tempted Lucifer, resulting in his downfall and his metamorphosis into Satan or the Devil.

This monster is the complete opposite to god and dwells in utmost darkness deep, and very remote from god. I know this is true as I was shown this Malignant Monstrous Beast by an intelligence I took for God, while in the Void (HELL).

I was told that it is God’s eternal enemy and the reason for evil and its origin and perpetuation. This thing might be almost as mighty as God is himself! (Light against darkness). It seemed to be some type of antigod? There is an Anti-Christ-why not an Anti-God, Maybe they are one and the same evil being?

If we do not accept my explanation, then one must go to the Bible and read Isaiah 45; 7 were GOD says" I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the lord do all these things. This verse could be a very definite and clear indication of the origin of evil; namely evil originating from god himself and god having two natures.

Him being both good and evil. The scripture clearly states that GOD created Evil, like it or not.

On what basis do I justify the chapter before the previous one that went off my point a bit? It is justified on the basis of my own personal terrible confrontation with this evil monster that lurks deep in the "Void” or hell. (Three times during brought on by near death episodes). This "void" monster is worshiped by Satan and I am convinced is the ultimate source and origin of all evil.

Satan did not confront me during one of my near death experiences, but by something almost infinitely worse! Satan is the prince of darkness, not the king of Evil! This thing is god’s eternal enemy and has a diabolic almost infinite evil dark intelligence and power.

I experienced that God due to his innate perfection is forced to  (darkness) and remove it forever from his being.


I felt this judgment more as an emotional separation from God, with feelings of utter darkness, desolation, despair, and fear terror, horror and everlasting dark cold hopelessness, the Void. Where  totally depraved dark evil beings , have to eternally exist, somewhere far together, forever, separate and remote from god’s love and could never enter his light. (Darkness cannot penetrate the light!).

Because of their utter evil depravity and darkness, totally Evil and Depraved beings would never enter Gods light and would be forgotten by God in their own Evil Depraved Perversions forever in the Void” A terrible thought". When I was so very ill, I communicated with intelligence, who revealed these things to me? I got the impression that God would someday rescue persons of much lesser evil, who had some light (goodness) in them. From the lesser upper regions of the Void into His eternal blessed light. (Out of the eternal darkness).

Let me assure the reader that there is no love, joy peace or light in the Void. As some writers suggested in the June 6 2003 newsletter. (Only utmost hopeless desolation and everlasting despair.)

There is Good and Evil throughout the Universe. I know this from personal experience! The battle is from Eternal past but God will destroy the Beast of the Abysses,

Note carefully- God is not Oxymoron!
And
God does not have two natures!
God is love!
GOD IS GOOD

Alan
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alchemist
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #1 - Dec 26th, 2008 at 5:21pm
 
"God created evil".

I believe that's true. Perhaps the reason was so that we can see what the alternatives to 'good' are.

Without anything to compare it to (no context, comparison) 'good' is easy to take for granted. Kind of like the fish that lives in water, 'doesn't know what it doesn't know' (I love that phrase!) that there are non-water environments...

I believe life is not about how many bad things happen in our lives, but rather about how we face, deal and overcome adversity / challenges.

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #2 - Dec 26th, 2008 at 10:50pm
 
alchemist wrote on Dec 26th, 2008 at 5:21pm:
"God created evil".


'We' are God so we did create the illusion of evil. Wink






Quote:
I believe life is not about how many bad things happen in our lives, but rather about how we face, deal and overcome adversity / challenges.


Free will = learning experience = why we are here.



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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #3 - Dec 27th, 2008 at 5:43am
 
I believe the idea of good and evil is for the most part looked at in the wrong context, and I must say I disagree with basically the entire essay.  

Many will say that God is responsible for all good things and the devil is responsible for all bad things, but IMO this is false.  Many hide behind this idea, for it relieves them of most personal responsibility for the events in their lives.. they find it easier to blame an outside source.  Many people are so disconnected from their inner reality and consumed in false belief that their lives indeed seem out of their own personal control.  We are not puppets in a cosmic play directed by God and Lucifer.  We create every aspect of our lives, from the inside out, regardless of our awareness of the fact.  

When we look at these "evil" acts in the world, what we are really seeing is the result of false beliefs, the lack of love, fear, the closing off of the connection to the inner self-the source of our being, and the fanatical approach to the actualization of one's ideals.  

A large problem is that our society is taught to believe that the human race is naturally evil, that we are "born with sin".  Most of our societies institutions are based on the premise that human nature is unreliable, untrustworthy.  There are also mass misrepresentations of the nature of good and the means of achieving ideals.  So we have people who believe they are naturally evil, who don't trust their own human nature, while simultaneously trying to attain goals and ideals which may seem unattainable through ordinary means due to a lack of self-trust and self-worth and other false belief, and therefore take fanatical action, and the ideals they seek to fulfill are seen to justify the means, whether or not the means are "good" or "evil".  War comes to mind as an example.  Most "evil" deeds are usually not done for "evil" purposes at all.

God/All That Is embraces all of its creations, and therefore all of our creations, whether they are "good" or "bad."  We encounter "evil" to the extent that we focus on it, just as we attract positivity into our lives the same way.  Personal experience has taught me this.  

Good and evil are not absolute.  They are a matter of perception.  They are dependent upon an individual's beliefs.  You may look at 9/11 and think, those terrorists are evil.  I imagine a large percentage of people hold this belief.  However, the true nature of the situation is not that these terrorists are naturally evil, but that the false beliefs they entertain distort their perception of reality to such a degree that their "evil" acts are seen as good, or at least are justifiable.  I am not saying that I condone destructive acts.  What I am saying is that there is much more to the situation than "it's the work of the devil."

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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #4 - Dec 27th, 2008 at 8:19am
 
Dude,
many thanks for encapsulating this argument so precisely and concisely.
I agree with you completely.
You Da Man!!  Grin Cheesy

Happy new year, y'all.

David.
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #5 - Dec 27th, 2008 at 1:59pm
 
Greetings,

I find myself agreeing with you all and not in a namby-pamby way!

What I see as good and evil has everything to do with energy patterns in tune with the energy of our planet/cosmos (good), and energy not in tune (evil).

When we emit PUL (sorry if that seems over-used) we are radiating outward in a considerate but high intensity way. That is "good,'' in every sense of the word.
But radiating outward doesn't make it good. Over-bearing or violent outlashing is the energy of hatred and destruction, for example.

Pulling energy inward, absorbing energy, toward us isn't good either, as in taking what is not ours, that has been created by others' effort (10 commandments talk of this.)

(I suspect that PUL invites energy in in a subtler way, so that such Love has a willing  exchange of give-n-take energies. )

We give these energies different names (evil, good, etc) and act out various roles in our excanges of such energies.
So the names you have mentionned in this thread all fit my little scenario. 
Thank you for letting me test my ideas with your responses!

bets
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #6 - Dec 27th, 2008 at 2:49pm
 
Thanks Dave, I tried my best.
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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Alan McDougall
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #7 - Dec 27th, 2008 at 10:21pm
 
OOOBD,

Quote:
  We are not puppets in a cosmic play directed by God and Lucifer.  We create every aspect of our lives, from the inside out, regardless of our awareness of the fact.


WE DO NOT CREATE EVERY ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES FROM THE INSIDE OUT REGARDLESS OF OUR AWARENESS OF THE FACT
.

That statement is not well thought out and absolutely false Tell that to my beloved sister Thelma a soul of beauty grace and light, who is now dying of liver cancer?

My sister has lived a life of love charity and altruistic given all her life, I by comparison have not, during my life I have had to over come, hate,  unforgiving and a life that I was not proud of.

Based on your statement , it should be me that should have cancer explain this please

Or tell it ti the millions and millions dying off poverty disease and hunger.

Tell it to the victims of the holocaust.


"THAT IS A CRUEL STATEMENT."


Of course we are not puppets , if there were only good , then we would not have a choice that is why there is both good and evil, so that we can choose,

We are free to choose whether to love God or our fellow humans just as we are free to hate.

Think again??

"By the way OOBD I know how you feel about me and it is not loving?"

Alan
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #8 - Dec 28th, 2008 at 2:50am
 
Alan

I did not intend for you to take my post personally, I was only expressing my beliefs about this topic.  

There could be several reasons why your sister manifested the cancer.  Now, this is only speculation, for I know nothing about her.  Often times psychological issues manifest as physical symptoms if left undealt with for long enough.  I have seen this happen many times to those around me, and even to myself.  Sometimes there is a blockage of energy, energy which is unexpressed in an individual, and that creative energy needs an outlet.  This energy will then manifest itself in another way, say as cancer, as a sign to warn the individual that there are deeper issues which need to be fixed.  

It is also possible to manifest an illness by concentrating on it, perhaps by living in fear of catching a disease and mentally obsessing over it, for example.  This has also happened to me.  For a short period of time I became worried about getting cancer.  After a few days of playing with this thought pattern, I began experiencing slight aches in the area I concentrated on.  I caught on to what was happening, lost the idea that I would get cancer and regained my trust in my natural state of health, and the symptoms totally disappeared.  

Cancer may also be manifested as an excuse to die and move on to the next level.  Some people are simply ready for the transition, whether they believe life has no meaning and cannot express themselves in any way due to false belief, or they have gained all they needed from this experience.

Of course there are also physical aspects to this problem, such as diet and genetics, but since the physical is manifested through the spiritual, these are basically all issues of a mental/spiritual nature anyway.

The idea is that we choose the early conditions of our lives for various reasons, and so those born in suffering countries have chosen this, again for their own personal reasons.  I am sure that the holocaust victims have by now realized that Hitler was not a truly evil man, but instead held false beliefs and had a distorted view of the world, and was trying to accomplish his goal of making a perfect world, which is certainly a noble cause, but his approach to the manifestation of this ideal was completely fanatical and the means did not justify the purpose.

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But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
 
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #9 - Dec 29th, 2008 at 1:50pm
 
OOBD,

I agree that in some cases what you state could be true, and I know that cancer feeds on fear..

But this does not apply to my sister of any of the other persons or factors I mentioned in my previous post.

As for that essay of mine it was written years ago trying to reconcile a omi-all good God with the existence of evil, I wrote it when researching this most vexing of subjects and came across the Zoroastrian religion what believed in two apposing forces in creation, a god of evil and a god of light, with the god of light just a little stronger and more powerful.

At the time it made some sense to me , as all my religious friend kept telling me God had everything absolutely in his control and of course if we look at the horrors of human history this is blatantly wrong

I have moved on since then , and believe evil is  just a choice made by humans and so just is goodness and love,

In my opinion (present opinion) God cannot be equated to man , God simply is "THAT WHICH IS THAT"

GOD IS THE INSCRUTABLE ABSOLUTE

Alan
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #10 - Dec 29th, 2008 at 2:21pm
 
Alan:

First of all, when it comes to what you wrote about Zorastianism, Zoroaster didn't teach people about an evil being. He taught that there is divine will, and the various things that get in the way of divine will. Zorastrian teachers who came along later added the evil being concept.

Regarding Lucifer, if you consider the manner from a historical perspective, a fallen angel named Lucifer never existed. Lucifer is a fallen king of Babylonia, a physical person, a king of Tyrus. A man named Jerome made some mistakes when he translated the name "Lucifer." Attached are some articles if you're interested.

http://www.israelofgod.org/SatanIs14Ez28.htm
The above article takes a while to make its point.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml





Regarding evil, I figure the creative aspect of our being is neutral. A part of life is learning to make use of our creative aspect of being in a wise and loving way.  It isn't a matter of God purposely creating evil, or some evil being such as satan being responsible. It is a matter of allowing the creative aspect of being to have enough freedom to be functional. Along the way, each of us gets to decide what kind of being we want to be. A being who lives according to love, or a being who lives according to whatever. Just as a loving parent allows a child to become the kind of person it wants to become, a loving God allows his children to become the kind of souls they want to become.  A lot of positive guidance is available in order to help them find their way. Apparently a few get lost for however long.

Here's another article about Lucifer.  I don't know if you'll be able to get the site to come up, so I posted the words.

Taunt of the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:4b-21)
Is 14:4b “Look how the oppressor has met his end!
Hostility has ceased!
14:5The Lord has broken the club of the wicked,
the scepter of rulers.
14:6It furiously struck down nations
with unceasing blows.
It angrily ruled over nations,
oppressing them without restraint.
14:7The whole earth rests and is quiet;
they break into song.
14:8The evergreens also rejoice over your demise,
as do the cedars of Lebanon, singing,
‘Since you fell asleep,
no woodsman comes up to chop us down!’
14:9Sheol below is stirred up about you,
ready to meet you when you arrive.
It rouses the spirits of the dead for you,
all the former leaders of the earth;
it makes all the former kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
14:10All of them respond to you, saying:
‘You’ve also become weak like us!
You’ve become just like us!
14:11Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol,
as well as the sound of your stringed instruments.
You lie on a bed of maggots,
with a blanket of worms over you.
14:12Look how you have fallen from the sky,
O shining one, son of the dawn!
You’ve been cut down to the ground,
O conqueror of the nations!
14:13You said to yourself,
“I will climb up to the sky.
Above the stars of El
I will set up my throne.
I will rule on the mountain of assembly
on the remote slopes of Zaphon.
14:14I will climb up to the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High!”
14:15But you were brought down to Sheol,
to the remote slopes of the pit.
14:16Those who see you stare at you,
they look at you carefully, thinking:
“Is this the man who shook the earth,
the one who made kingdoms tremble?
14:17Is this the one who made the world like a desert,
who ruined its cities,
and refused to free his prisoners so they could return home?”’
14:18As for all the kings of the nations,
all of them lie down in splendor,
each in his own tomb.
14:19But you have been thrown out of your grave
like a shoot that is thrown away.
You lie among the slain,
among those who have been slashed by the sword,
among those headed for the stones of the pit,
as if you were a mangled corpse.
14:20You will not be buried with them,
because you destroyed your land
and killed your people.
The offspring of the wicked will never be mentioned again.
14:21Prepare to execute his sons for what their ancestors have done.
They must not rise up and take possession of the earth,
or fill the surface of the world with cities.”

This passage is an imaginative poem.  Its content is a taunt.   Just as the trees didn't literally "get down and party" when the king of Babylon died (14:, we shouldn't read the description of Sheol as a theological treatise on the afterlife.

The passage is clearly about the literal Babylon (14:4a, 22) and her human king (14:16).  As the epitome of evil, the language used to describe the arrogance of the king of Babylon here is used by Paul to describe an eschatological "man of lawlessness" in 2 Th 2:4 (cf. Isa 14:13-14).  But Paul is not interpeting this passage in Isaiah as referring to him, but rather using the language as a sort of cliche; at most, he is treating the king of Babylon as a type of the man of lawlessness.

Historically, it has been a common practice to spiritualize this entire passage to be about Satan rather than the human king of Babylon.  This misinterpretation is behind much popular mythology about Satan.  The reference in 14:11 to his string instruments (which in context would not refer to the king's personal instruments, but the instruments of the musicians at his court -- compare with David playing the harp at Saul's court) is behind the myth of Satan originally being the chief musician of heaven until he attempted to rebel and take over.  Whatever the actual details of Satan's fall from heaven, this passage is not about that.

The above scripture and commentary comes from this site.

http://www.jeff-jackson.com/new/religion/eschatology/Isaiah13-14.html

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Alan McDougall
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #11 - Dec 29th, 2008 at 3:10pm
 
Recoverer,

Alan:

Quote:
First Zoroaster didn't teach people about an evil being. He taught that there is divine will, and the various things that get in the way of divine will. Zorastrian teachers who came along later added the evil being concept.st of all, when it comes to what you wrote about Zorastianism,


Yes maybe Zoroaster did not believe what i stated in my previous post, but that is a definite belief of one of the off shoots of the Zoroastrian religious just like the many different Christian sects

Respectfully Recoverer, I know the bible like the back of my hand and can quote huge parts of it without having to open the book.

In Ezekiel 28/29 there is the chosen cherub that was  perfect in all his ways, who walked on the fiery stones until evil was found in him. Many believe this is a reference to Satan of the Devil

But according to no less an authority than Jesus, The Devil was a liar from the beginning and there is no truth in him. So whoever this Devil is I must agree with you that it cannot be Lucifer of the Cherub of Ezekiel.

Oh!! while I think about this topic , Jesus once said to his followers "I saw the day that Satan fell like lightening"


That is why  created my hypothetical eternal enemy of God in my essay, which I no is wrong , but I gave it a bash

Alan
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #12 - Dec 30th, 2008 at 2:29am
 
I think that much misery comes from ascribing a sense of comic justice to happenings in the universe that are due to either complex interactions in the physical world or random fluctuations of energy and probabilities.  Cancer, as awful a disease as it is, is not a divine punishment.  The notion that those who are healthy and live many years are being rewarded by a divine deity is based on a misunderstanding of factors involved in physical life. 

I also happen to be against ideas expressed on this forum that we have a tremendous amount of control over all of the specific aspects of what happens to use in the physical world.  A popular New Age dictum is that we choose our own circumstances down to the last detail, either before we are born, or while incarnate.  While the law of attraction in the physical world has been shown to apply in a general sense (that we attract toward us what our innermost thoughts are), it has been my experience that this works in terms of changing probabilities - not in terms of choosing specific circumstances (i.e. - a person's higher self choosing their specific disease such as cancer). 

In animal models, cancer is a multifactorial disease.  There are genetic  predispositions, carcinogens such as nitrites in foods or cancer causing chemicals in cigarettes and the envirnoment.  In these animal models, several "hits" need to be combined to result in the manifestation of cancer.  Can a person's fears, wants or desires factor in to this?  Of course, but the many interactions that ultimately lead to the illness are quite complex.

From my perspective there is a notion of good and evil in the spiritual and physical world, and these terms are truly defined on actions based on acting out of love or acting unlovingly.  Evil, when seen in this light is defined as the thought and action that leads away from love of other people and love of God.  It is a conscious choice that people make on a daily basis. Good and evil are thus real, but based on  free will and the choice of a conscious entity.

Moral relativism is a way of thinking which states that there is no good or evil, only experience (and that no experience is more good or evil than any other.  I do not believe in moral relativism (in fact, I loathe it).  It is the ultimate concession in being politically correct or "PC," as it factors love out of the equation. 

This is why it is so wrong to say that good and evil don't exist, that it is all a matter of perception.  The 9/11 terrorists, for example may have believed that they were acting toward their beliefs in Jihad (and for them a form of good).  The mistake in this thinking, however is that good, as defined above (acting from the love of others and of the creator) is diametrically oposed to killing people to inflict terror.  Thus we see that good and evil are NOT all a matter of your point of view.  You can't say "my religion tells me that by blowing you up I am acting lovingly" because on a deep level, even the terrorist knows this to be false.

There is a great intelligence to creation.  We see it, and feel it all around us.  Spiritual explorers come back from NDEs in awe of the notion of love and how it is expressed on so many levels.  Love or PUL  becomes the driving force of life, and thus sets up the underlying nature of good or evil.  To say terms such as "there is no good, no evil, only experience," is to miss out on the love of the universe. 

Matthew

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #13 - Dec 30th, 2008 at 10:34am
 
I would say that ultimately there is balance and that balance can be perceived as good or evil depending on what perspective you observe it from. This world is dualistic so here we will perceive two opposites, but the universe is one thing and so somewhere in the great grand scheme of things those two must become one or one gives over to the other. Since evil is fear based it would seem to me that evil eventually gives up or stays in one place. I disagree that the terrorists know they are wrong. They've had plenty of crap dumped on them. I am not justifying their actions by any means but I'm sure they have no trouble justifying them. Forget the last 6000 years and just take a look at the history of the middle east and western relations since 1935. I know no one here needs a history lesson, I'm just saying the "good" and the "evil" have innocent blood on their hands and so it will be as long as there is good and evil...good will not win out here without some serious help, but maybe that's not the point. Maybe we're here to pick teams>a silly metaphor I know in a very enlightening conversation. Unlike the public school system one does not graduate this plane in one cycle at practically any cost.

These are all great posts thank you very much.
Yours,
Beau
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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #14 - Dec 30th, 2008 at 2:25pm
 
I agree with Matthew said.
When I was being brought up Catholic, my God was a vengeful, fearful God. I had to watch each action, spoken word and thought for fear of punishment from God. I could never understand how my God would send innocent children to their death and then now allow them into heaven because they weren't baptized. Why would god punish me if I ate meat on Friday? Or send me to hell if I didn't attend church services every Saturday? I never like "confession". That always turned me off--- telling a man on the other side of a screen what I was truely sorry for and god would forgive me through him.  My god was not a loving god at all. I questioned my "religion" all the time. For that, I am a better person and spirit!  If my god can't accept all who will accept him --- then I don't want to go there. There must be some hope for anyone I may consider truely evil (IE: Gen. George Custer)  I can not answer for someone else's actions. I must answer for only my "self".  During my life I have been called Miss Know-it-all, Busy body, nosey, loud mouth, big mouth. You get my jest.  I always asked god why he gave me such a hyper personality.  I had no instructions from my parents on how to control my thoughts and words. I had no encouragement to meditate or seek out an elder who could give me wisdom without condemnation. My childhood was misrable and fearful. Each time I said anythig to anyone, I would become distressed because I just knew that someone somewhere would report it back to my parents or teachers and I would be punished. Then I would have to go to confession and tell a stranger that I was sorry (that I got hurt ) because of what I said and then I would get a punishment again from the priest in the form of contrision. Of course the persone I talked about would be completely devestated, so they had to make sure that I paid for what I said.

Where was my God then, to comfort me and tell me that there was a genteler way of handing the truth to someone? As I got older, I went through a divorce. My husband brought home a vineral disease to me and my parents blamed me, saying I must be doing something wrong in my marraige. ----Wow--- that really blew my mind!! I was angry at God for giving me the disease and also for the dislocated shoulder that my first husband also gave me. And this was the man that my parents (good Catholics) and the Church said I should stay with. Well, I divorced the church and my husband!  Heaven forbid, I won't be accepted into the Catholic Heaven now!!!

What is good and evil?  It is a state of mind in the thoughts of the beholder.--- cat
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The three things you can never take back:
The spoken word.
The unkind thought.
The misused hour.
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