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My struggle with understanding good and evil (Read 19045 times)

Rondele

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #30 - Jan 1^st, 2009 at 2:38pm

Alan says: <<If someone broke into your home, raped your wife and daughters before killing them "before your eyes" and then deliberately left you alive so that you could dwell on the horror for the rest of your life. Would you just dismiss this as the work of basically good but mistaken persons.>>

Hi Alan and Happy New Year!

Well, those who follow Seth would say that the wife and daughters had a pre-incarnation agreement with the killer before any of them was born. This agreement provided for the wife and daughters to volunteer as victims so that their necessary karma could be fulfilled.

The killer, of course, was merely helping them fulfill their karmic debt.

In this scheme, the killer shouldn't really be viewed as the bad guy at all. Perhaps the husband should actually thank him for honoring his wife and daughter's request and for setting them free from their karmic debt.

Just another example of the sheer insanity promulgated by so-called highly evolved entities such as Seth. Or more accurately, the twisted mind of Jane Roberts.

R

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Alan McDougall

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #31 - Jan 1^st, 2009 at 2:56pm

Beau, and the others,

Quote:

Alan I think you have certainly hit on what, for me anyway, is what the whole discussion is really about. I respectfully disagree that evil is the root of all fear as I believe fear came before evil. Believe me, I wish I saw it your way, Alan, for it is a much easier position to defend. I have given it a lot of thought over the years and while I haven't changed my mind you have given me pause to rethink my position several times and I thank you for that. Logic in this instance does not bear great fruit for me, I guess. Thank you again for the thread as I have enjoyed it immensely.

What was there to fear before anything bad of evil came into existence?

When God created our world he was pleased and said it was good. To me if it were Gods intention to create a perfect universe and a perfect world full of perfect humans, history speaks loudly that he made a colossal mistake.

So we are left with the enigma, how could an Infinite intelligence of infinite perfection create some much less than perfect? Which should perfectly obvious to we humans and definitely to an Almighty God

If we can take the position , that our souls and minds are eternal and infinite, but not perfect, and that as we are all part and parcel of God , that would explain our imperfect reality. We being the imperfect aspect of God

So we a micro entity within the greater macro being we call God, should know that all existence is evolving and ever striving together towards perfect, perfection

Fear is really a useless emotion , remember President Roosevelt's saying , "We have nothing to fear bur fear itself'"

Who then in the far distance brought fear into the world???.

Or is the concept of good and evil only a human created emotion?

Alan]

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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Lucy Super Member Offline Posts: 1158 C1	Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil Reply #32 - Jan 1^st, 2009 at 3:54pm Always remember people in attack mode are there calling for love. ACIM
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Lucy

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #33 - Jan 1^st, 2009 at 4:05pm

Quote:

Or is the concept of good and evil only a human created emotion?

Alan
I am personally intrigued by the interpretation of the Prodigal Son story a la Gary Renard and would, if only for the sake of argument, say yes to this.

I also have experiences that make me question all these things and am old enough to understand what a difference there can be between what I think i believe and what I experience emotionally. Sometimes it is difficult to rectify the two. I think that is one of the problems here.

I also acknowledge that I have not...or at least not yet but not sure I want the lessons that would help me learn...I have not yet learned to generate enough PUL so that I can remedy pain with a blast of PUL and "burn" my enemies in its fire. Perhaps they would rise like Phoenix from the ashes, reborn in love, no longer to threaten me. After all, what exactly does it mean to share PUL with someone?

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Beau

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #34 - Jan 1^st, 2009 at 8:51pm

Alan,
If one does not fear something, then why would evil ever pervade? The evil done to one of us by another is done to rectify a fear. To say fear happens as a result of evil seems ass backwards to me. Why is someone evil? I promise you it will always come back to a deep held fear. That is why people do horrendous things, many in the name of "good", because they fear the opposite without understanding it. Maybe it is not your (not you personally) wish to understand the "enemy". There is certainly a purpose to that, but I feel in the end you are cheating yourself of a great growth opportunity. It's just an opinion of course and we all have one. Are you saying that there are just some real jerks out there and there is no reason for what they do other than to be horrid? I just don't agree with that. I think we always have the opportunity of examination and when we delve deeper we may find a greater truth in our selves and others. And to be clear, I don't think Good and Evil are emotions at all. I think they are labels to help people focus their emotions, whatever they may be. I think those labels are necessary here, but I don't believe the entire spiritual universe is dualistic. I don't think PUL is good or bad, it just is what it is...energy, pure or at least as pure as we can devise currently (no pun intended) And fear was brought into the world by people whose egos got the better of them and they imagined that perhaps one day they would not be provided for in their garden. All was cool at first then people got to thinking outside the PUL because they had some semblance of free will. I don't have the answers obviously, but I know when something isn't making sense to me. I guess we must disagree on this one, but there are many other areas to chat about and I hope we get to do that in the future.

Yours,
Beau

All the world's a stage...whose stage?--that is the question!...or is it the answer...Who is on first.

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Alan McDougall

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #35 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 5:30am

Beau,

Reading your post, it seems to me we must abandon the concepts of both Good and Evil as these are just personal perception.

In other words it was good for Hitler to murder all those innocent people in his death camps (of course from his perspective)

So being the Good person he perceived himself to be, he was just elimination a subhuman segment of humanity for the greater good of all.

If we say evil is just an illusion , equally we must apply this to good, why not?

You are right when you state that the entire spiritual universe is not dualistic, there are realms in it where only good and love prevail and realms where only darkness and despair prevail . I know this as I have observed both realities in a NDE.

Of course where there is PUL and everyone is a perfect altruist then there is nothing to fear, but such a state of being is unfortunately not out earthly reality.

We are all on a journey toward higher and greater things or on a journey downward toward lower realms of existence.

God does not judge us, we judge ourselves and our final destiny lays firmly in the palms of the hands of each of us

Alan

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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Alan McDougall

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #36 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 5:51am

Lucy,

ACIM STATEMENT SAYS

Edited:

The story of the wasteful son, demonstrates a Son who chooses to leave his rich and abundant life because he thinks he can do better on his own. The son always knows his way home and can return whenever he chooses. The Father is constant and waiting for his Son to return with open arms and celebration. Being cut off from his Source, the son experiences lack and want for the first time. The Father didn't banish him from Paradise and he is not responsible for the son's experience of being apart from him. It reminds us of the story of the temptation to seek the knowledge of good (and not expecting the experience of evil) in the Garden of Eden. The most important point of the story is the contrast between what the Son came to believe was true about himself and what the Father knows to be true.

The Father is not wrathful or the slightest bit interested in punishing His Son. The metaphor is God's Love rushes to meet his Son, knowing his son is forever innocent because He IS His Son...and nothing can ever change that fact...the Son is the extension of the perfection of God forever

.

Well Lucy, if the son in this chapter is us then it reads correct, but if it is a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ, it is false as the Divine Jesus would never had embraced the wrongs and depravity of life.

Jesus is the very embodiment of truth and had no need to find it.

And if we are God then God is imperfect and evolving towards perfection.

I concede, however, that my knowledge relating to the ACIM is very limited indeed

Alan

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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Beau

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #37 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 10:29am

Alan,
I found much common ground for us in your reply #35. We see many things in a similar fashion. What do you feel about the fact that Hitler was most certainly mentally ill, bi polar at the least. If his brain, or antenna was impaired doesn't that negate his ability to reason out his absurd agenda? I pose this only because you had said that Hitler sees himself as good...It may be that his paranoid delusion left him no other choice.

I just wondered where such an ordeal as that would place him in the eyes of the universe. I think when we suffer from a illness of the mind the ego fills in where the message breaks down and thus we venture out into unreasonable realms. The fear of getting the message wrong or not following through is greater than the ability to reason the universal logistics of such an action.

I have experienced paranoid delusion and I have to say that it was not an evil to me as much as it was misinterpretation because my synapses were firing too fast for my human mind to comprehend the entirety and albeit simplicity of the message/vision.

One could argue that the message was of an evil nature, but I don't think so--I think I misunderstood it. I was not trying to wipe out a nation of people btw...just pretty confused

If there is a place that is completely good, then there is definitely a place that is completely bad, I think. It just seems to me that if we originated from one pure source then we go back to that or rather evolve back to it, but it could be that once good and evil split the perfect balance we are forced to evolve very differently. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to these posts, Alan. I am new here and I don't have much experience with this type of board, but it has been a great experience.

Yours,
Beau

All the world's a stage...whose stage?--that is the question!...or is it the answer...Who is on first.

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Lucy

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #38 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:22pm

Alan

I believe the Prodigal Son in this context refers to all of us collectively, that have not returned to the knowledge that we are God. I think the Jesus Christ part is the part that did experience the separation but then also experienced the return, the Prodigal Son that returned home.

If Jesus the Christ didn't experience the separation, then there would be no way to lead the rest of us back.

The idea was that the separation we created then led to the idea of good and evil.

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Alan McDougall

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #39 - Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 1:25pm

Rondele,

Hi Rondele and may the coming year be full of hope peace, joy, health happiness and love

Your Quote is in exact accord with mine

[

quote]
Alan says: <<If someone broke into your home, raped your wife and daughters before killing them "before your eyes" and then deliberately left you alive so that you could dwell on the horror for the rest of your life. Would you just dismiss this as the work of basically good but mistaken persons.>>

Hi Alan and Happy New Year!

Well, those who follow Seth would say that the wife and daughters had a pre-incarnation agreement with the killer before any of them was born. This agreement provided for the wife and daughters to volunteer as victims so that their necessary karma could be fulfilled.

The killer, of course, was merely helping them fulfill their karmic debt.

In this scheme, the killer shouldn't really be viewed as the bad guy at all. Perhaps the husband should actually thank him for honoring his wife and daughter's request and for setting them free from their karmic debt.

Just another example of the sheer insanity promulgated by so-called highly evolved entities such as Seth. Or more accurately, the twisted mind of Jane Roberts. [/quote]

« Last Edit: Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 3:50am by Alan McDougall »

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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I Am Dude

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #40 - Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 2:55am

Quote:

Alan says: <<If someone broke into your home, raped your wife and daughters before killing them "before your eyes" and then deliberately left you alive so that you could dwell on the horror for the rest of your life. Would you just dismiss this as the work of basically good but mistaken persons.>>

Well, those who follow Seth would say that the wife and daughters had a pre-incarnation agreement with the killer before any of them was born. This agreement provided for the wife and daughters to volunteer as victims so that their necessary karma could be fulfilled.

The killer, of course, was merely helping them fulfill their karmic debt.

In this scheme, the killer shouldn't really be viewed as the bad guy at all. Perhaps the husband should actually thank him for honoring his wife and daughter's request and for setting them free from their karmic debt.

Just another example of the sheer insanity promulgated by so-called highly evolved entities such as Seth. Or more accurately, the twisted mind of Jane Roberts.

Rondele

What you have said is pure misinformation. I don't care if you disagree with what Seth believes, but make sure you have your facts straights before you make judgements. Seth rarely speaks of karma at all. He says it is simply a beleif system that is not a natural law, but a human construction. Not once has he mentioned karmic debt as being a reality. Rather, Seth would most likely say that the family attracted the event into their lives through their thoughts and beliefs. There could be several contributing factors in the manifestation of a horrid event such as this, all of them basically originating from false belief systems, fear, and the law of attraction. Read The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events, this will offer insightful ideas regarding the nature of events such as this.

But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.

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Alan McDougall

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #41 - Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 4:06am

Lucy,

Your quote
Quote:

I believe the Prodigal Son in this context refers to all of us collectively, that have not returned to the knowledge that we are God. I think the Jesus Christ part is the part that did experience the separation but then also experienced the return, the Prodigal Son that returned home.

If Jesus the Christ didn't experience the separation, then there would be no way to lead the rest of us back.

The idea was that the separation we created then led to the idea of good and evil.

Lucy,

Remember there were two sons in the story of the Prodigal Son, One left and misused his inheritance, the other remained with the father and continued to obey him.

Humanity collectively are the son that left the father and squandered all his inheritance.

The Son that was with the Father always was Jesus, yes God the Father sent him on a mission and he did experience the awful reality of separation from God.

But Jesus unlike the prodigal son never embraced evil and got as low as eating with the pigs (depravity)

Although separate and tempted like us (Prodigal son) he never even once submitted to evil. All his life he remained pure and undefiled much unlike his rebellious brother or us if you like

Alan

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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Alan McDougall

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Re: My struggle with understanding good and evil
Reply #42 - Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 6:51am

Poetry from the Finale

The world is poor

Her fortune is buried in the sky

And all her treasure maps

Are of the earth

Authentic Messiahs cannot cease

Their meditations on vast human hurt

To heed the pain of nails

Damnation, senseless

Killers! Oh, for a fee

Cassandra, if the worlds on fire

We must save a cup of ashes for

The seed.

Hell’s logic consists in

Preventing murdering by

Murdering the murderer

Heavens logic greets every

Murderer with grace

Dying when the time comes

With beatific face.

A God too large to walk in

Human shoes

Has outgrown hope of

Human use

And heavy skeptics weighted down

With doubt

Can never rise to

God’s about

A humanist in chocking sea

Called for help presently

Received in full intensity

“You must swim, if you would be.

Self –reliance makes one free

“That’s nice”

He said and floated easily

   And died I misery

Evil finds a ready home

Where beauty is despised

And ugliness enthroned

Prayer is most real when

we refuse to say “Amen”

We most love heaven when

We will not end our

Conversations quickly

Who found their “Amens

Close at hand

Come to the court of God

Having eyes unwashed with

Dreams and you will see

Nothing

Death is the confirmation of

The believer’s creed

For the skeptics it is discovery

Immense and too late

The first sound sleep we get

   On earth

We must be roused on realm away.

Light is never given

While we fear the dark.

Materiality a blessing all its own.

Spirit -Demons play in fire

Hoping for cremation.

In terror of their immortality

      They envy dying humanity

From the Finale

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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