Good replies to the thread, Beau and Cat.

Beau, I respectfully disagree with you (and OOBDude in one of his posts).   Good and Evil are not just a matter of perspective, for this kind of reasoning negates the notion of PUL/Love as the driving force in the universe.  I noted this in my previous post.  If, as spiritual explorers have found, that PUL is our reason for being, this sets up the definition of Good and Evil, as either one who expresses love for others/God or one who takes the opposite course (evil) and acts/thinks unlovingly.  This is not to say that a person can't choose to act good in some instances and evil in others; we can, and for this reason, every person is quite complex.  I have found these definitions (of good and evil) to hold up under the scrutiny of both logic, and my own spiritual experience. 

This is why, I can't abide by moral relativism - the "everyone has their own point of view, so every point of view can be good or evil," idea just doesn't hold water.  I said that the terrorists blowing up innocent civilians know, deep down what they are doing is wrong.  Some may disagree with this.  It is not that they intellectually were not indoctrinated into this cult of death - they were.  Rationally, they could tell you about the 72 virgins awaiting them in heaven, and why they needed to strike terror into others as well as hurt, maim and kill.  But deep down, on a nonverbal level, their  soul knows that it is wrong - an abomination - an evil.  No amount of teaching by the Imams, or quoting of scripture will change what you and I know deep down inside to be loving or unloving.

That being said, the notion of predestination, and of cosmic justice mentioned in this thread is a different kettle of fish.  Bad things happen to good people.  Loving people may suffer horribly in a seemingly randomn manner.  Why?  Where is the justice, as Alan mentioned?

I don't think that God and the universe mete out justice in this manner.      As I noted in my last post, I think that many awful problems and issues in C1 (the physical plane) simply exist due to multiple factors, risks, and probabilities which interact in our lives.  While I am open to the idea that our higher selves may choose some of our circumstances in the physical world, I believe much is left up to these variables, because the risks or chance we agree to participate in C1 makes life worthwhile. 

My two cents,

Matthew

Here are my thoughts about Doc/Matthew's 911 terrorist statement. THOSE MEN WERE NOT MOTIVATED BY THEIR HIGHER SELVES WHEN THEY DID WHAT THEY DID! A HIGHER SELF WOULD NEVER MOTIVATE A PERSON TO DO SUCH A THING! So much for moral relativism.

P.S. I understand that Doc wasn't defending them.

Doc

I agree, although everyone has a different perception of what good and evil/right and wrong are, there is an underlying force from which these are based on, which is love and understanding.  It seems that the more you live according to your innerself/love, the more accurate your perception is of what is good and what is evil.  This doesn't change the fact that everyone will have different perceptions of these "forces", however, but I do agree that at a core level it is simply love and lack of love/fear. 

As for the terrorists, it is true, at a deeper level their higher selves know that what they are doing goes against love and is destructive.  However, discussing the ego consciousness, at the C1 level these terrorists probably believe they are just in their actions.  I remember a few years ago when I had a distorted view of right and wrong, I justified actions which were out of line with my innerself and love, and so my perspective of good and evil was skewed.  I saw things as "good" then which I now know are "evil."  Of course, my higher self was aware of this, but back then my physically focused self was not. 

Recoverer

If you live according to love then you must know the difference between right and wrong, simply because examples of people living according to fear/lack of love are so numerous, one would obviously see the difference, for he is choosing one over the other to begin with.  This is basically saying that one can live according to love and be unaware of it, unaware of choosing love over fear/lack of love.  Ish don't think so.  Love is the basis for "right" action. 

I just reread your statement... living according to love DOESNT mean that you CANT know the difference between right and wrong... in otherwords, you said living according to love DOES mean that you CAN know the difference between right and wrong.  I'm guessing you did not mean this.  If you did then I guess you can disregard my previous statement.

I see.  I guess I misunderstood your initial statement.  I thought you were saying that it is possible for someone who lives according to love to not know the difference between right and wrong.  If they live according to love then they must know what is right and what is wrong, for they are choosing right.  I agree that the intellect plays a factor.

Matthew, I may have given the wrong impression. I believe there is indeed Good and Evil afoot here in this dualistic world. My point was that the evil is fear based and fear is an invention that comes from a lack of trust of the source. PUL overcomes this fear. Of that I have no doubt. Trying to define good and evil as it applies to other cultures is a tedious topic. A belief system is a powerful thing. Do they know that what they do is based on fear based mentalities...I'm not sure they do. Fear can be a very deceptive thing to decipher. I'm not a moral relativist, but I do believe there is usually less than meets the eyes, ears, etc. Meaning that PUL can be distorted in its description to seem fear based...loving out of fear. That's not at all my opinion, I'm just saying that perspective is something that has to be accounted for here in our C1. Further down the line I'm not sure about. I don't know how we get to the perfect balance, but I don't think it's from labeling Good and Evil for anyone but ourselves. I can't make someone unafraid, but I can share my experiences and hope they strike a chord. Surely to me it seems there is true evil in this world, but I've never met anyone that I thought was truly evil thru and thru. I have met plenty of people, even myself, who operate from a fear mentality. They don't do it because they want to be horrible--they do what they do because they are afraid to do what's right--often because they believe that the right thing, because it is easier or more difficult is the wrong move. All I'm saying is I think it's a slippery slope. I don't want a mortal deciding what's good and evil for me--maybe I'm the fear based mentality. Great posts everyone.

Beau

Happy New Year Everyone!!! Woo Hoo! I agree with you, Alan, that Earth is a paradise lost. But I think it was lost because irrational fears gave over to "evil ways". The survival aspects of fear are not irrational at all and it is built into us, but judgment of others is a learned behavior that results when those fears get out of hand. When the ego becomes afraid that it won't have enough of something. Yes people do horrible things and it is very difficult to talk to someone who has been a victim of a terrible crime about fear being the root of all evil. I would only suggest a book called "Starseed Transmissions", by Ken Carey. It's not for everyone but over the years I've gotten something out of what he was saying. I'm not a disciple of his or anything but his treatise on irrational fear was pretty good. It's a great discussion and I thank everyone for their input.

Yours,
Beau

Alan I think you have certainly hit on what, for me anyway, is what the whole discussion is really about. I respectfully disagree that evil is the root of all fear as I believe fear came before evil. Believe me, I wish I saw it your way, Alan, for it is a much easier position to defend. I have given it a lot of thought over the years and while I haven't changed my mind you have given me pause to rethink my position several times and I thank you for that. Logic in this instance does not bear great fruit for me, I guess. Thank you again for the thread as I have enjoyed it immensely.

Cricket,
I'm like you (in most situations). My brain kicks in and tries to logically deduce what is the best course of action. Should I consider if someone else might be killed also. If so, I would gladly give up my life if it would save another being. Then I would think, "what does this person want--- really want?" I would also think that my family would be okay without me, I have insurance to cover the house when I die. I have some life insurance policies to help pay off any debts.  All this would go through my mind while being "held captive".
After the situation was over, I too would register what happened and what could happen.

No one knows what you as a human being will do in case of an emergency or negitive situation. If you happen to be dreadfully ill that day, you may be too lathargic to respond in any way other than placid. The same holds true with good vs. evil.  As I stated --- the persons whom I had been a busy body to thought of me as evil. I thougt of me as being helpful and good. Perhaps on a day where I wasn't Miss Goody Two Shoes, and I had a series of bad events take place, that same remark from Miss Busy Body may have been viscious and more destructive with an "I don't gave a damn if I hurt you" attitude.
It is a state of mind in the thoughts of the beholder. I may comprehend what society considers "evil" --- out of the ordinary action. When the Crusaders murdered millions of innocent people in the name of Christ, or tortured thousands during the Inquisition, you can't convience me that this action was all good in the name of God. Unless a person has very severe brain damage, that being knows the difference between Good and Evil and only s/he is accountable for her/his actions. An excellent example: I am carnivores. Does this bother me? Sometimes yes. Most of the time, because of the acception of the society I chose to be born into, I don't give it a second thought. Is it evil to slaughter a living animal? Most of us would say no--- because they give us necessary nurishment. We make excuses to exonerate our actions. It is generally accepted, so we accept it as good. I worked with a woman who was an animal rights activist. She was appalled that I was wearing leather shoes. I explained to her that I am allergic to man-made material and had to wear leather.  Was she "good" or was I "good"?? In my mind, I justified the use of an animal skin because of a medical condition. Evil is a state of mind in the thoughts of the beholder.

Thank you all for being my Afterlife Knowledge family. May you all have a prosperous,  fulfilling and happy 2009.
Carol Ann