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Volume I: Voyages Into The Unknown ... (Read 1454 times)
Ronny
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Volume I: Voyages Into The Unknown ...
Nov 5th, 2008 at 4:29pm
 
I just finished reading the first volume of Moen's four books.

I have some questions and hope some of you can answer them for me. Thanks in advance.

The theme of the book is Moen's attempts to verify his other consciousness experiences with hard data and experiences from the physical world. He was helped tremendously by a pioneer traveler, Rebecca.

How does one know for certain that Moen did not use other possible unknown skills to be able to experience other consciousness and confuse that unknown skill with his "learned" skill from the Monroe Institute? Perhaps there might be a confound going on? One such skill could be mind-reading. Could Moen have mind-read thoughts  that living persons have already about the deceased people, hence whatever Moen reported was not actual communication with the departed people, but mere memories and thoughts of people who are alive?

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spooky2
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Re: Volume I: Voyages Into The Unknown ...
Reply #1 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 9:47pm
 
Yes, this is a possibility. The considerations you have are leading to the core of how our reality in itself is established. For this kind of questions we will principally never get an answer which can be "prooved" in a usual, material-physical way, as all those "proofs" would be in themselves of the nature of reality we want to have a proof for.
    So, what is left is to get an overview of what possibilities there are; and different people will allow different things to be called a "possibility". When we consider informations we've gathered during a retrieval experience to be actually gained by telepathy from still living people, we have as well to believe in the consequences of that: That is telepathy, and although a somewhat common term, the consequences are immense. No less the consequences when we consider the retrieval informations would stem from a kind of universal database; we then had virtually access to all informations we look for, and maybe we actually have access to this database all the time, constitueing our reality to a large degree. Or you simply go with the possibility that it's a deceased person, now nonphysical, who gave you the infos. What seems more likely to you? The decision you make is indicating what belief system you have; but watch out that your belief system is not containing contradictions, or it would crash sooner or later and you have to rebuild it. Well, those things happen.

Spooky
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"I'm going where the pavement turns to sand"&&Neil Young, "Thrasher"
 
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Bruce Moen
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Re: Volume I: Voyages Into The Unknown ...
Reply #2 - Nov 10th, 2008 at 1:21pm
 
Ronny,

Ronny wrote on Nov 5th, 2008 at 4:29pm:
How does one know for certain that Moen did not use other possible unknown skills to be able to experience other consciousness and confuse that unknown skill with his "learned" skill from the Monroe Institute? Perhaps there might be a confound going on?  


The first thing for me to say is that in my opinion only the information you gather from your own direct experience should be cause for you to change your beliefs about the afterlife. In the prologue to the book I said "my experience, however, has convinced me that any ordinary human being with curiosity can learn to explore human existence beyond death."  My over 10 years experience teaching others (many of whom have had zero previous experience, and have professed zero innate talent) since writing that statement have served to reinforce it.

One of my primary purposes in writing Voyages into the Unknown was to point out that all of us have "other possible unknown skills to be able to experience other consciousness." In my opinion the skills from the Monroe Institute are not so much something that I learned there as they were something I realized I had all along.

Ronny wrote on Nov 5th, 2008 at 4:29pm:
One such skill could be mind-reading. Could Moen have mind-read thoughts  that living persons have already about the deceased people, hence whatever Moen reported was not actual communication with the departed people, but mere memories and thoughts of people who are alive?  

This same "mind reading" explanation has been proposed in the past. One might think it would be difficult to rule out this possibility, and indeed there may be cases in which this is actually going on. However, there are several cases which do rule out this possibility. These cases involve information obtained from the deceased that was unknown to any other physically living human being. In one case a large sum of money was hidden in a place that was easily accessible. Specifically, it was in a large envelope, taped to the bottom of a cash drawer, of the cash register the deceased and his wife had used in their restaurant business while he was physically alive. This cash register was on display, out in the open, in the home the deceased man had lived in with his wife. His wife, now a widow, and continued to live in the home after his death. If she or anyone else had known where her deceased husband hid the money she or that person could have easily taken a and no one else would've ever known. But, several years after his death the deceased man was contacted and he gave the information about the money's whereabouts. He also asked that the person you received this information not inform his wife but instead inform his daughter. It turned out the envelope contained a long letter to his daughter explaining many important things to her, and the cash. There have been a number of similar cases that rule out of his mind reading explanation. As with any sort of investigation I feel it's important to continue gathering more data to get a clearer overall picture a whatever the truth really is.

Bruce
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recoverer
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Re: Volume I: Voyages Into The Unknown ...
Reply #3 - Nov 10th, 2008 at 1:41pm
 
I've found that spiritual experiences can play out in a way that are just as substantial as this physical World. Is our experience of this physical World the result of mind reading?
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Alfred
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Re: Volume I: Voyages Into The Unknown ...
Reply #4 - Nov 10th, 2008 at 11:10pm
 
Quote:
by: recoverer today at 1:41pm
I've found that spiritual experiences can play out in a way that are just as substantial as this physical World. Is our experience of this physical World the result of mind reading?


Hallo Recoverer, and All,
According to Tom Campbell in his MBT trilogy, our physical world (one of many PMRs) is effectively just that - a construct of non-physical consciousness, a sort of virtual reality with its own rule-set (physics), where individuated consciousnesses (us, and other sentient beings) can interact in a constrained system (physical bodies, physical environment) so as to improve their "quality" of being. All this is in accord with the ideas of Monroe, Bruce Moen and others, including some traditional teachings, of the Earth system (PMR) as a school or training lab (or assault course, in many cases!).

Alfred
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Vicky
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Re: Volume I: Voyages Into The Unknown ...
Reply #5 - Nov 11th, 2008 at 1:49am
 
Hi Ronny,

I hope you will continue reading the rest of Bruce's books.  I'm assuming you will, since you are here posting.  You probably have enough interest that you'll continue with the rest of Bruce's story.  That's what his books are, his story to tell.  It's a guideline for people to follow who want to discover for themselves what is true and what they want to believe.  If Bruce only had one experience in his life to go on, then he himself would not likely believe what he believes now and teaches.  It took many experiences to learn from before his belief system became what it is.  And that's what we all have to go through individually.    

The thing about verifyable information is, you may not always be able to find proof that is satisfactory to other people, and that's ok.  You may have an experience that doesn't give you any solid, verifyable real-world proof at all, and that's ok too.  As long as you have some proof in one or some of your experiences, enough that it changes or opens up your belief system enough that you can have experiences that prove to YOU that what you are experiencing is real, then that's all that matters.  You will learn to trust your own awareness.  That's why it is important for each individual to seek out and verify (to his own satisfaction) his own experiences.  The more you learn to trust your own conscious awareness, the farther you will progress in your skills and experiences.  

Proof to the individual is what it takes to open up your own perception and unblock your beliefs.  So when Bruce talks about his experiences and tells his story, it is because he has already gotten to the point where he fully believes and trusts his own perception and experiences.  And you will find yourself at that point one day as well, if you continue to search and learn from your experiences.  

If you notice, Bruce's first book really shows how he struggled believing if any of this was real or not.  That demonstration in his first book really made him seem very credible in what he was writing about.  And then as his books progress, he does away with that and just dives right into telling it like it is...just telling his experiences as if he couldn't care less if anyone believed them or not.  Because the truth was, at that point HE believed in them and that was all that mattered.  I think that's why he teaches us to find our own truth from our own experiences.  His sharing his own stories is just a guideline for anyone who is interested in the same thing to follow his example and have their own direct experience and come up with their own conclusions.  

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