Hi all. This is a subject that often gets overlooked.

Most spiritual paths/traditions start with a code of conduct for living in the everyday world, and then move on to teach an alternative way of looking at things which shows how our naturally conditioned perception of reality is often based at best on a misinterpretation of causes and consequences (why things happen the way they do)  - usually the result of the application of dog eat dog adversarial thinking, as opposed to love.

The bit that's often missed in this latter part is that the thinking/theory  that shows why this is the case is only one side (and the minor one) of the issue. What matters much more is the use of meditation, study, contemplation, prayer, and assistance of the Holy Spirit in real life situations (especially in relationships) to initially understand, then try out and experience the teaching, and ultimately to intuitively just 'know and do' what's right. Guidance and insight with time come on stream.

This latter entails calming the thinking mind, opening to the possibility that there's other ways to see things as well as in accordance with our conditioning, and in absence of mental noise starting increasingly to hear the still small voice of our intuitive/empathetic/heart/knowing side - you could say Spirit.

The result is personal transformation - our view (how we see ourselves and the world, and how we relate to both) changes, we become much less belief and much more reality or true seeing driven, and we start increasingly to live through love. We progress from realising after thought what we should do, to through conscious effort getting ourselves to do it, to it's becoming our natural unthinking response.

We ultimately as a result of extra normal experience come to see the illusory nature of self, of body and mind, and of this world, and of ego driven conventional dog eat dog behaviours as the route to ending suffering - more and more we see that reality is far greater than we perceived, that all is one, and that love (wisely applied) is always the solution.

Why this piece? I guess that my sense is that not so many make the transition from intellectual  discussion of spiritual topics to working the spiritual path of personal transformation. I'd just like to put the issue on the table for comment.

It's akin to the difference between talking theoretically from the couch about your favourite sport, and with the help of a coach doing self work to improve your performance as a player. (except that this is the game of life, so you play it 100% of the time, even when you are learning!)

Self work involves continuous self study and evaluation of our actions and motives to gain insight, and great bravery ('warriorship') to apply in life what seems from teaching to make sense, but goes against our conditioning.

It's not the easiest step to take. Many spiritual books do a great job of setting out the 'why' but don't get down to the specific practicalities, and talk the happy happy high level side instead. Many spiritual groups teach meditation, but don't have experienced teachers able to work one to one with students on personal transformation. Buddhism repeatedly talks about the role of the teacher, but the practicality of most Western Buddhist groups is that experienced teachers are not usually easily accessible.

We're all ready to blather and theorise, but far less ready to get down to the hard work of personal change and transformation.

We're all different, and have our own issues. We're anyway at differing stages on the path, and may need to work anything from quite obvious conventional behavioural issues, to very subtle aspects of working with mind and view.

Those of us that work alone end up relying on reading and life experience for personal insight, and this is a hard road in that it's so difficult to see ourselves and our behaviours in perspective. (fish can't say very much about water - it's always just been there )

One advantage of e.g. ACIM is that while it pitches quite a subtle non-dual message it's set up to cover this ground, and to assist those working alone - to deliver teaching (the text), to deliver experience of applying the teaching (the workbook), and to train teachers. (the teachers manual).

We commonly think that the way we are is fixed, but actually mind is incredibly malleable....

Over to you guys....

Vajra and Alysia:

It's funny how you two like ACIM and I don't.  It might have some good things to say, but I just can't accept the idea that God has nothing to do with this World. My higher self/spirit guidance has helped me quite a bit, and steared me away from ACIM.

What precisely is non-duality? I used to be into Advaita Vedanta and Chan Buddhism so I understand what it usually means.  But can the creative and awareness aspects of ourselves really be seperate from each other?  How are we supposed to learn what the creative part of ourselves is about, if we never figure out what it's about?  Should a kid measure the value of his life by how nursery school goes, or should he or she see what the rest of life is about before concluding that life is a big mistake that God has nothing to do with?

Here are links about Mkultra and and then about how it relates to ACIM. I believe all three of us are interested in serving the light. Yet we have different viewpoints when it comes to ACIM. In the interest of serving the light, perhaps we should get to the bottom of what ACIM is all about.

Regarding Groeschel, Mark Cuneo speaks about him in his book "American Exorcism" and going by what he said, it doesn't seem like Groeschel is overly quick to demonize people. I'm not saying Helen Schuchman was effected by demons, but it is very possible that Groeschel can be trusted when he states that Helen was in a negative state of mind during her later years.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mkultra&aq=f&oq=

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread286946/pg


A COURSE IN MIRACLES - A CIA MANIPULATION DEVICE?
www.hometown.aol.com...

from Tal Levesque's Research Services: June 11, 2007

(QUOTE)

‘Creating a mythos’ to control people.

Program of psychological warfare (PSYOP) or ‘Mind War’.

* Using FALSE information to manipulate and control people.

A Course in Miracles (also referred to as ACIM or "the Course"),[originally published in 1975] is a book considered by its students to be their "spiritual path".

According to Dr. Helen Schucman and the Foundation for Inner Peace (FIP), Dr. Helen Schucman and

Dr. William Thetford "scribed" the book by means of a process coming from a divine source through a form of channeling which Schucman referred to as "inner dictation". Schucman described the divine source of her channeling as none other than the person of Jesus Christ.

Well.... Dr. William Thetford, headed the CIA's "Mind Control" MK-ULTRA SubProject 130: Personality Theory, while at Columbia University between 1971-1978.

Dr. Thetford’s Professional Bio, also available on the A Course in Miracles web site, makes reference to his involvement in a Personality Theory Research Project while Professor of Medical Psychology at Columbia University, but the information does not specifically cite this as a CIA MK- ULTRA SubProject.

ce399.typepad.com...

There is a connection between Unity Church, "A Course In Miracles", MK-ULTRA Artichoke Subproject 130 ; Scientology ; the UFO Myth and the Stanford Research Institute.

"A Course in Miracles" was a CIA manipulation device.

It was an experiment orchestrated by the CIA/US government.

Many were DAMAGED by it.

It was implemented Bill Thetford (an agent of the CIA) at Columbia University.

Search for info on Thetford and MKUltra (the government's well-documented mind-control program) to find more.

The agenda, according to those interested in this sphere of investigation, is to inflitrate and dilute the American left with New Age ideas and inward-focussed, anti-rational religious movements.
*****************************************




The Making of 'A Course in Miracles'



Excerpt from : www.beliefnet.com...

William Thetford, also a Columbia professor, was a mysterious character, and "probably the most sinister person I ever met," the priest recalled. Only after he retired from teaching did Thetford's Columbia colleagues (who knew him best as a rare-books expert) discover that all during the years they worked with him, the man had been employed as an agent of the CIA--one who was, among other things, present at the first fission experiment conducted by physicists assigned to the Manhattan Project. Thetford also was "the most religious atheist I have ever known," Groeschel recalled, and conceived a great enthusiasm for A Course in Miracles, personally arranging for its publication. Schucman was embarrassed, Groeschel remembered, and confided to the priest her fear that the book would create a cult, which of course it did.

Groeschel initially read the Course as "religious poetry," but grew steadily more negative in his assessment of it as the years passed and sales of the three volumes passed into the millions of copies. From his point of view, A Course in Miracles served to undermine authentic Christianity more effectively than just about any other work he could recall, and while he was inclined to reject the position of St. John of the Cross that "these things are diabolical unless proven otherwise," doubts had crept in over the years. Most troubling to him by far was the "black hole of rage and depression that Schucman fell into during the last two years of her life," the priest explained. She had become frightening to be with, Groeschel recalled, spewing psychotic hatred not only for A Course in Miracles but "for all things spiritual." When he sat at Schucman's bedside as she lay dying, "she cursed, in the coarsest barroom language you could imagine, `that book, that goddamn book.' She said it was the worst thing that ever happened to her. I mean, she raised the hair on the back of my neck. It was truly terrible to witness."

(END OF QUOTE)

Alysia:

As you know, I prayed to God and Christ a number of times and asked if ACIM comes from Christ, and on each occasion was told "no."

Perhaps I interpreted the messages I received incorrectly.

-One time I asked and was shown four pages from the course that were highlighted in a manner to show that a lot of errors can be found.

-One time a copy of the book was brought within my vision, and the name was rubbed out so it no longer said "A course in miracles."

-One time one of the books that translates the course was thrown to the ground.

-One time the book started to move into my vision, it faded back into the darkness, and a copy of the Holy Bible came clearly into view. I took this to mean that Bible is more accurate when it comes to representing the words of Jesus than ACIM.

-One time I had a dream where I was with the spiritual group I used to belong with, and at the end of the dream a man shook me vigorously and asked, "Why did you do it, why did you do it, why did you allow yourself to be brainwashed again?" He was speaking of ACIM and it did have a brainwashing effect at the time.

-I've had two other dreams that represented ACIM in unpositive ways.

-One time I was told, "Drop it, it makes the ego bigger."

-I've also received a few other messages that didn't represent the course in a positive way.

I figure the course has some good things to say. Why else would good loving people like it? However, because its source is questionable, it is possible that it is erroneous at times. If a person believes it comes from Christ, he or she might consider it to be infallible.

To me, the course seems to be a mixture of Freudian psychology, Christian Science and Vedanta.  William Tetford's parents were regular members of Christian science.  This explains how he learned about such principles.  Because he was an atheist and into mind control projects for the CIA, it is easy to see how he could be a person who would have no problem with misrepresenting Christ. I'm not certain,  but I believe that I once read that Helen Schuchman also had exposure to Christian Science. As psychologists, it is obvious where the Freudian influences came from.

Perhaps it would be better for a person to pray to Christ and ask him if ACIM comes from him, before he or she concludes that the Course does. If a person believes that Helen Schuchman could make contact with Christ, then why wouldn't such a person believe that he or she can make contact with Christ?  If a person wants instruction from Christ, then why not make contact with him directly? If it is possible to make contact with the holy spirit, then why wouldn't it be possible to make contact with Christ? Why not allow Christ the opportunity to directly let you know what he is about, rather than rely on a book?

Alysia:

Check with me about a billion lifetimes from now, and I still won't be ready for the course. I see that Gary Renard is getting to you.

I read over two hundred pages of the course before I realized how it was brainwashing me. Regarding the 365 day thing, I started to do it, but then the need to do so came to an end.  One time I was wondering about the course, and I was shown an image of a man. I recognized this man from magazine advertisement. I looked at his add and it spoke of a 365 day course of instruction he offers. I could tell this wasn't a confirmation for the course. I find it hard to believe that Christ would put together a one size fits all 365 day course that is largely made up of a bunch of afirmations. The spirit instruction I receive isn't composed of afirmations. It "isn't" presented in a manner that would suit everybody else. Each of us has unique needs. How could these needs be met by a one course fits all approach?

[quote author=recoverer link=1223067594/0#4 date=1223077446]Alysia:

As you know, I prayed to God and Christ a number of times and asked if ACIM comes from Christ, and on each occasion was told "no."

Perhaps I interpreted the messages I received incorrectly.
____
sometimes we can interpret incorrectly our symbols given. I have done that. later, thinking it over, I discovered I was wrong.
as I told you awhile back, you can learn what truth is from any number of paths, and get the same truth that comes from ACIM. the main point for any soul to get is the idea that we love our enemies.
that includes people who are on a different path than yours. even if you despise their path, they have a right to follow their path, so long as it does not cause injury to another, it's none of your business but to love them.
_____

-One time I asked and was shown four pages from the course that were highlighted in a manner to show that a lot of errors can be found.
____
u r the type of person has a large ego, goes looking for the contradictions. that is your path. whatever you look for, is easy to find. focus on the positive, it's just as easy to find the positives as the negatives.
______

-One time a copy of the book was brought within my vision, and the name was rubbed out so it no longer said "A course in miracles."
___
this I interpret in my own way, that you are the one elected to rub it out as best u can. since I am the one elected to spread this book, we now create something new together. u essentially are strengthening me, I've been called the queen of ACIM. u r trying to bring down the queen. sorry. it can't be done. lol. I love you for trying, it makes me stronger!
_____
-One time one of the books that translates the course was thrown to the ground.
___
Yes, but I'm connected to JC. he was thrown down to. I don't expect any better treatment than he got.
______

-One time the book started to move into my vision, it faded back into the darkness, and a copy of the Holy Bible came clearly into view. I took this to mean that Bible is more accurate when it comes to representing the words of Jesus than ACIM.
____
I don't believe the bible is accurate. things were rearranged to much as time went on. I could not find much about JC in it even. these are things we should do in our own meditation. as well the main admonition is to treat others as you would like to be treated.
anger is never justified according to ACIM. therefore I'm sorry I got angry at you. I know it's not justified.
JC forgave those who killed him, so I can forgive those who seek to prove me wrong also. It's easy after awhile, and gives me peace of mind to forgive.
_____

-One time I had a dream where I was with the spiritual group I used to belong with, and at the end of the dream a man shook me vigorously and asked, "Why did you do it, why did you do it, why did you allow yourself to be brainwashed again?" He was speaking of ACIM and it did have a brainwashing effect at the time.
____
well you're brainwashing yourself to seek out only the negative end of things like you do. singing the blues all the time, that's what you get, if you do what you've always done you get what you've always gotten.
the blues. it's your path. seek a miracle and get one of those. all you have to do is ask for help from the same god we all share, the Father who was in JC, who did the works.
talk to him yourself. he'd be willing to see you again.
_____

-I've had two other dreams that represented ACIM in unpositive ways.

-One time I was told, "Drop it, it makes the ego bigger."
_____
your ego is already pretty big. I mean I like it, I like what you've done, I can see your work. but ACIM tells you that the ego is vicious here. and my experience is that you are vicious to me, so that's why I say your ego is big. you don't care about me.
you don't show it. but at the same time I see higher purpose acting here, that your viciousness only makes me stronger to fight the lies about ACIM.  ACIM heals the separation between man and god.

it says we are dreaming here. as well, it is like a night mare some of the things that go on. if we heal the separation, we do it one by one, as a self study course. not through religion which is failing to enlighten the people. religion means the responsibility for change in society is falling on the minister. ACIM says the responsibility is on the individual for society's changes.
sounds democratic to me.
______

I figure the course has some good things to say. Why else would good loving people like it?
___
why would good loving people like it? maybe because it fell out of the sky into their hands when they were on their knees crying out god I can't go on! I'm a worthless bum taking up space in the world, please let me go home!  if u were down this far and a spirit came up to you, held your hand and said I love you, I am with you, we can heal together and follow the wisdom of love and loving, then u would know what it was that made that person good and loving.
____

However, because its source is questionable, it is possible that it is erroneous at times.
___
no, it is consistent. says the same thing over and over in different worlds, simply that god loves you. there is no error in it. the error is in our own minds.
_____

If a person believes it comes from Christ, he or she might consider it to be infallible.
_____
I know Christ. I believe that. I repeat, it IS infallible. but I will allow you your disbelief, as there's room enough for both of us on this board. however, to get it's message, of the content, rather than the form, you do not have to believe it is JC.
I think it also helps to call upon the HS for guidance how to understand the Course message, of forgiveness.
When I read it I didn't understand automatically. I asked for assistance and received it. I would be in the book several hours a day, taking only a few pages at a time. I was slow I thought.
but better to be slow and thorough than speedy and miss the point.
_____

To me, the course seems to be a mixture of Freudian psychology, Christian Science and Vedanta.
____
you can find snippets of truth through out any book whatsoever. JC liked Helen's belief system to work through, as she was trained in Freudian basis. He knew what he was doing to pick her. and Vedanta was a part of JC's early studies. He was a man like you and me.
_______

  William Tetford's parents were regular members of Christian science.  This explains how he learned about such principles.
____
Bill had nothing to do with the writing of ACIM. it is channelled thru Helen. Bill put the notes together and organized it. he was not allowed to add to it or subtract it or change it, indeed, Helen wanted to change it too, J told her he would leave her if she did that.
If you want the best teacher of ACIM go to Kenneth Wapnick. He stepped in later to help organize things. His only job is promoting and helping people understand it.
he too is under attack on occasion. all good loving folks come under attack; it's part of the program here, can't u tell?

________

Perhaps it would be better for a person to pray to Christ and ask him if ACIM comes from him, before he or she concludes that the Course does.
____
I did pray. and this is my answer. and this it remains. it is you now who has the questions, not I.
_____

If a person believes that Helen Schuchman could make contact with Christ, then why wouldn't such a person believe that he or she can make contact with Christ?
____
exactly. so do it. I believe that totally we can.
_____

If a person wants instruction from Christ, then why not make contact with him directly?
_____
what r u waiting for? I hope not my opinion.
____

If it is possible to make contact with the holy spirit, then why wouldn't it be possible to make contact with Christ?
_____
many people do, but they are not in their bodies, they have died.
I believe we can ask for this, but I think we have to believe first that it can be accomplished. I already have my contact. but cannot prove it.
_____

Why not allow Christ the opportunity to directly let you know what he is about, rather than rely on a book?
____
personally speaking, which is all any of us can do, a book was what I asked for from spirit as I was dying and sick of seminars.
and a book fell out of the sky. I was healed and you know the rest of the story. sort of. but you can never see inside my soul.
only god can see what's in there.

bless you, I know how you struggle. wish I could do more, share more, hold your hand, whatever.
somewhere inside of u is a sweet soul. I know this.

love, alysia

[quote author=recoverer link=1223067594/0#7 date=1223078881]Alysia said: "you will have to learn to forgive all those who hold a different belief system, or are a different culture or color of skin. you will have to release this world, from your addiction to coming back. That is what ascension means."

Recoverer responds: "Please forgive me for believing that ACIM doesn't come from Christ. Please forgive me for believing it is a travesty that he has been misrepresented by ACIM. "
_____

don't ask me to forgive you, ask him yourself.  we will end our conversation now and allow others to write their own posts.

it's wrong to hog up the board this way with ourselves. it's selfish.
I release you from any expectation I have for you to change your mind. I know you and I will be just fine to believe differently.

let it go dearie. don't beat your head into that wall again. it's not good for you. you are being watched over anyway. not by me.
take care.

Albert-

Interesting that you would mention Gary Renard, author of Disappearance of the Universe.

Renard is characterized as a fraud by none other than Greg Mackie who is with Circle of Atonement, which just happens to be the major ACIM website!!

See http://www.circleofa.org/articles/Entities.php

In attempting to maintain consistency with the original topic of the thread per vajra, instead wallowing through another "referendum" on any particular source:

In a very general and profound way, the conscious deliberate pursuit of spirituality is practical - perhaps even the ultimate form of practicality - although not only is this counterintuitive to conventional thinking, but it may take some considerable suffering and struggle to be able to see it that way. It may be during that intervening passage prior to the big reorientation in which everything is indeed merely theoretical from the latter more authentically spiritual point of view. For many or most, suffering is a necessary theoretical grounding (or negative form of practicality?) that leads to trying something else that is much more practical in the positive sense, although some few spontaneously go directly to the spiritual orientation from the outset.

I would simply define practical spirituality as 1) choosing a particular expedient, and then 2) working with, or on it.

What constitutes "work" would be subject to examination according to various definitions and standards, and this then may enter into the question as vajra points out, of genuine legitimate teachers being further expedients of practice by virtue of the fact that they are necessarily some amount/degree/number of steps ahead of the student within the chosen path, and therefore have the capacity to address the individual requirements of students who embody varying temperaments and standards of receptivity and relative capacity. In this regard the old saying might apply concerning being ready for the teacher to appear. Preparation does lead to opportunity of all kinds and yet, opportunity presents and is very often not recognized. Therefore it is considered fruitful to always continue working, refining, evolving, remaining open and alert whatever the current circumstance, definition or standard of practice. A sincere, unremitting aspiration and self-offering through practice will yield results eventually, including making appropriate contact with sources/teachers/guides if that is proscribed within one's path. If not, then one may continue working "solo", since God/Highest-Self is certainly available that way too.


some poems by Sri Chinmoy: Quote:

A theoretical spirituality might be characterized by mental/intellectual curiosity, pursuit of and exposure to sources of inspiration - facts, concepts, books, scriptures, etc.; verbalizing/discussing speculations or personal preferences that may not have been experienced or practiced - - even though all of those mentioned could be a precursor/precondition to choosing and enacting some practical application, and frequently are.

The classic progression seems to be inspiration, aspiration, realisation, revelation, manifestation - with each founded upon the previous, and in the real world they all become part of a dynamic multifaceted process in which various aspects may be in one phase or another simultaneously depending on focus of attention. Inspiration seems most associated with the theoretical aspect in this discussion, because it deals with exposure to options leading towards recognition of orientation, or to continuation of progress using any means within a chosen path that as yet exists only as potential within the process but must be practiced. One of the biggest forms of inspiration is the appreciation of others' personal experience through their positive example and this is why well-intentioned sharing in different forms has the ability to kindle further positive movement in others. However, it would be a mistake to use different forms of inspiration as a vicarious substitute for one's own practical application.  

While inspiration by itself may not be practical, inspiration can lead to aspiration which is eminently practical. Aspiration is in essence practical because it is the eternal living energy vehicle one may align with that is inseparably part of and leading to realisation. It is present by invocation or not - but if present it is by its very nature practical, so if one is aspiring it will neccesarily mean a practical application. Iow's, it is what it does.

Quote:



Certainly what would not be practical and could even be counter productive would be to apply energy to any means or expedient that has specifically not been chosen, i.e., rejected. That strategy might require billions of lives to work out, as it involves the separative "objective" focus on numerous, even infinite individual possibilities that are potentially available but have been consciously, deliberately, subjectively rejected as being not serviceable - - useless for personal practice - - and the obvious consequence of that strategy being a diversion from what has been chosen in the positive sense, assuming some positive choice has been actually made. If a choice has not been made, then the continued exploration and evaluation of possible choices with a view towards rejecting what is not subjectively serviceable would necessarily fall into the area of either theoretical spirituality, non-committment, focusing on the negative or cynicism. Also, in the spirit of oneness, any unconditionally loving acceptance of another's path/practice as valid choice for them, even if rejected by oneself, would be a demonstration of practical spirituality.


- u


ps - Alysia, why don't you post a link to the blog you mentioned. I am sure there are people here who would like to read it, myself included