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Hell or no hell (Read 8168 times)

recoverer

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Hell or no hell
Jun 6^th, 2008 at 7:22pm

Numerous people have found through out of body exploration that lower realms do in fact exist.

Such sources tend to find that it isn't a matter of a higher level being punishing a spirit, but rather a matter of a spirit going to a realm that matches it's overall mindset/vibrational rate. On the other hand, some people have found that you can make contact with higher levels of being even while in the physical. Therefore, it isn't simply a matter of whether or not a spirit occupies a body.

Some people believe that all spirits go to heaven regardless of how they lived their life while physical, and if a person says differently, this means that this person is unloving and judgmental towards those who "possibly" end up in a lower realm.

With the above in mind, I have three questions:

1. Are the people who claim that they have found through out of body exploration and other means that lower realms do exist, misinformed, delusional, or simply not telling the truth?

2. If they have found that lower realms exist does this automatically make them judgmental and unloving people?

3. If people say that lower realms don't exist and that a person like Adolph Hitler goes to a higher realm right away, what is their basis other than opinion for stating this?

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I Am Dude

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #1 - Jun 7^th, 2008 at 1:48am

I know for a fact that realms of a lower vibratory rate exist, for I have had experiences in them. Because of the infinite nature of our multidimensional existence, dimensional levels of every possible vibration exist, and then some... actually, the variations are infinite. Therefore it is only logical that these seemingly "lower" realms exist.

I am positive that the newly deceased phase to a level that is equal to their own vibrations. Therefore, one person may have a totally different afterlife experience than another. One may be more "heavenly" or "hellish" than another, but these terms are fundamentally flawed to begin with. You create your experience in the afterlife from your beliefs and thoughts, just as you create it here in the physical. The main difference is that there, your thoughts manifest nearly instantaneously.

I believe there DOES exist a heaven type place where all people go regardless of their energy type, for everything ever possible exists, there are no limitations to experience... However, this place will most likely be a "hollow heaven" dimension, created by those who hold this belief with a like energy signature, where it SEEMS like every human goes strait there.

The claim that all humans go to "heaven" immediately after death is basically wrong. Most people have a false idea of the afterlife. They believe "heaven" to be whatever their particular religion says it is (all of them are flawed). These people may very well find themselves in a "hollow heaven" if they hold their beliefs strong enough.

But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.

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vajra

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #2 - Jun 7^th, 2008 at 11:29am

I can't add to this one guys in that I've no experience.

It's perhaps worth saying though that the situation may be more complicated than above.

Eastern teaching suggests that while we initially end up in a reality or bardo that reflects our expectation (which may be the realities many have visited), that we subsequently move on and in some way separate from the very high level of identification we have with individual selfhood/personality in physical life.

And that we then proceed to experience some form of life review where we as a result of dropping our personal prejudices can truly 'see' our behaviours and their results.

The more negative karma we've generated, the more shocking this is likely to be to us - we can't in this state whitewash issues using selective perception to we avoid seeing as we do in life.

It seems that if we're not sufficiently realised to avoid it that we out of a sense of loss develop an urge to reunite ourselves with our personality, and that the resulting restoration of a personal 'self' leads to the possibility of fear - the level of fear depending on how negative the karma revealed during our life review was, and how well able to transcend fear of the consequences we are.

Which fear can result in our being driven into rebirth in realms ranging from the hellish to the very pleasant. The lower realms are said to be so painful and the pleasant so unchallenging that both eliminate any possibility of spiritual growth in the subsequent life. Human realms are the middle ground - tough enough to drive learning, but not so tough as to reduce us to animalism.

The advantage available to those realised enough to remain unattached to the need for a personal life is to of course avoidance of the forces that drive us into re-birth into any of these realms - the realms are collectively termed 'samsara' - they can opt to move to higher levels, or to be reborn to help other beings.

The million dollar question for me when i read accounts of afterlife experience is whether what's perceived is the whole story, or just a part. Or even whether the people we meet and recognise are true people, or perhaps mostly discarded shells/personalities - parked while the absolute self (i hesitate to use the word soul because it has so many meanings) is on other business.

My reason for wondering about this is because of the way that (I think Richard Rose said it) those met don't seem to have a lot to say about the specifics of the afterlife, and what's going down.

It suggests to me that such beings are possibly not consciously fully aware of what's happening, that there are other more fundamental forces that drive our becoming in the bardos. That's not by the way to say that we don't encounter absolute beings.

A more radical possibility. Is it possibly the case that absolute selves take these personalities off the shelf like a piece of software and put them on to create their learning context when heading into their next incarnation?

« Last Edit: Jun 7^th, 2008 at 4:48pm by N/A »

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Alan McDougall

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #3 - Jun 7^th, 2008 at 2:44pm

Hi,

During my NDE I experienced hell like realms and heavily realms, but not the Christian hell of eternal everlasting torment. I agree if this were the truth then God is worse Than Hitler (I am not binging him up again as this persons fate was addressed in another thread)

If one thinks deeply about the view most fundamental Christian believe about hell. It is completely horrific and unspeakable cruel. Think about a person because of a finite transgression, being tormented by an infinite being in an infinite way. Burning in sulfur for an eternity day and night forever and ever in linear time. Exist in torment forever, God do this, not my lovely father God!!!!!!

A second in this place would be hideous beyond human thought. Think of taking a little child’s hand and forcing it onto red-hot burning stove plate for just 10 minutes, would God do the same and infinitely worse to a human soul forever, and not allow this soul to ever expire.

A former friend , now Christian funamentalist says because of what I have just stated to the forum and him my fate is that hell I dont believe in.

I retract my thoughts in horror and cannot rap my brain round from this unspeakable belief. If there is a devil it is more likely to do this kind of evil. not God, who will purge a soul from its wrong and reintroduce it into the cosmic family of sentient souls when it is ready.

Don/ Beserk. said some unredeemable souls are annihilated by God and this might be a

possibility.

Hell or no Hell "NO HELL IS MY ANSWER BUT DARK REGIONS YES!! "

Yours

alan

« Last Edit: Jun 8^th, 2008 at 2:18am by Alan McDougall »

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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vajra

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #4 - Jun 7^th, 2008 at 5:01pm

That sounds reasonable to me Alan.

While Buddhism teaches that we all do make it in the end (including Adolf), there are views taught in a variety of traditions which distinguish between the ego and the absolute self broadly as above that also provide for the possibility of annihilation.

The logic here is that it's possible to live a life where essentially nothing of any spiritual usefulness is learned during a lifetime. With the result that there's nothing that's passed over from the relative mind to the absolute self or to spirit during life, and the personality dies.

That's not to say that that is necessarily what happened to Hitler...

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Alan McDougall

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #5 - Jun 8^th, 2008 at 2:17am

varje,

you said

Quote:

While Buddhism teaches that we all do make it in the end (including Adolf), there are views taught in a variety of traditions which distinguish between the ego and the absolute self broadly as above that also provide for the possibility of annihilation

I believe this and through you are realising much of my beliefs, unkown to me, are very much in accord with Buddhism. If God stopped trying to purge Hitler from depravity picked up in this life, his whole creation would be a failure. One failure by a perfect being is a failure even inthe grand order of things.

If one reads my blasting of Adolf in the other thread you will see I never said he would burn in a hell forever. This is a disgusting idea, is it not.

Alan

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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vajra

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #6 - Jun 8^th, 2008 at 1:36pm

The term 'the perennial philosophy' comes to mind Alan. We like to get hung up on the differences, but there's very many traditions (everything from ancient native beliefs to the more formal traditions - some extending back before recorded history) using different language but suggesting much the same view of exitence and the total reality.

The Theosophists reckoned that it just recycles and recasts itself at intervals to suit the needs and prejudices of the time...

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Old Dood

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #7 - Jun 8^th, 2008 at 2:07pm

Not trying to belittle or highjack....BUT....

How about some HUMOR:

South Park: Judgment Day
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLnSJo3Z-Iw

South Park: Hell on Earth
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrFs1Wl1iLw

South Park: The War of Heaven and Hell
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UEe4ZM8HLU

One of the best shows on TV.

CLICK THIS AND LEARN

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vajra Ex Member	Re: Hell or no hell Reply #8 - Jun 8^th, 2008 at 3:29pm Tee hee. South Park and the Simpson's have this slightly subversive way of showing us how we really behave.....
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Old Dood

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #9 - Jun 8^th, 2008 at 3:55pm

Quote:

Tee hee. South Park and the Simpson's have this slightly subversive way of showing us how we really behave.....

Yes! I wanted to show some Homer in Hell videos but, YouTube has deleted them.
Also the one where Bart learns about HELL in Sunday School and was saying the word HELL over and over while they were all driving in their station wagon.

CLICK THIS AND LEARN

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LaffingRain

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #10 - Jun 9^th, 2008 at 1:37am

Dood, I was wondering if your personality is the same as Homer?

I know this off topic, but I love the Simpsons. pure genius if u ask me.

about hell or no hell, I don't think it's a black or white world, all shades of gray are there. I back up with the other Dude said, wait, we have two dudes now. lol.

BobMc. another forum member did an exploration intentionally to a hell. it was simply a man was a guard in a jail, who was guarding some prisoners, and they all thought they belonged there because of various deeds they'd done on Earth.

so hell is relative. now, my Cami, the teenage girl I retrieved would not know she was in a hell. and I would not know it either, as it appeared as an apt. complex, like a duplicate of this world, only it was the astral level closest to the Earth.
her deep depression, however is a hellish frame of mind to be in, to carry over into transition.
It was because of the circumstances of her transition. murder it would seem. the depression made it difficult for guides to reach her. I don't know how long in linear time she had been there, as to her, time does not pass like it does for us.

I would say the lower astrals, perhaps focus 23 we could call it, is the places where suffering takes place or continues, as usual, as a reflection of what happened in the physical, a mirror reflection of life continuing.

I just watched "Defending Your Life" last night. A comedy about dying and then going up before a court after death. Very funny and touching at the same time, I think that's how it actually happens. you guys should rent the movie.

what is peculiar to me, or used to be, was how certain ones can get stuck, not knowing they have transitioned and repeat their death scenes, as that was the last thing they remembered and they don't know what happened, until someone who can get thru approaches to lend a hand.

this hows how similar the first astral plane to the Earth is. like I said, a mirror reflection.

What amazes me is how people punish themselves here on this Earth, on purpose, then they just continue the same habits on the other side. again, until someone comes along who can get through to them they don't have to do that anymore.

love, alysia

Who takes away death's sting deprives life of bitterness

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LaffingRain

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #11 - Jun 9^th, 2008 at 3:44am

R asked: If people say that lower realms don't exist and that a person like Adolph Hitler goes to a higher realm right away, what is their basis other than opinion for stating this?
___

I didn't read the Hitler thread so I don't know if anything developed over there and I may be repeating somebody's else's conclusion but whatever, I've done that before!

R, did somebody say Hitler goes to a higher realm right away? it is only opinions here, just as you said, sometimes we have mystical experiences, but still we cannot conclusively say that our mystical experiences are the absolute truth as it pertains to one and all. then we can misinterpret and quite often our own explorations and experiences.

I'm guessing, so surely that is just an opinion also, that Hitler had a bunch of thinking to do after he transitioned. I don't know about y'all, sitting around thinking is not my idea of heaven.
also, there's a little thing called repenting, that nobody talks about here, as it's attached to the religion of Christianity. However, repentence is a spiritual quality and we all get into it, whether we wish to or not, or even if we are atheists.

whenever a soul goes down this road, they are wishing they had done it differently.

Simply because something feels not quite right. whenever you are doing that, you are repenting.
but what really is happening either the "sinner" is justifying their self, or they are getting to the painful place where they say I won't do it again because I only hurt myself, and so they have to live with their own self, and they are shown eventually how they must first forgive their self, and then they can move unto the higher levels.

In Christianity they say to find the persons you have "ought" against. if you can get their forgiveness, then you can move to a higher level. If you can't, you still have to go ahead and forgive yourself, otherwise you get stuck there.

we simply don't know about the Hitlers, what occurred for them in their soul, although I have read something, where an explorer checked him out. something was reported that his aides were just as much responsible for genocide as he was.
something to that effect, that he didn't take complete responsibility.

I'm thinking he's in some BST. It's not the highest level. What I'm thinking is happening is all the ones who died, if they can forgive him, he can forgive himself easier and move on to another BST, of a slightly higher level.
I'm also thinking all the Jews were sacrificial lambs in other historical periods, but I don't understand why, except for some reason we always seem to think death is the answer to all of our troubles.

I disagree on that one. But we know, as a whole, what we are capable of, don't we?

So we need God in our lives as we can't do it alone. God is Love.

Who takes away death's sting deprives life of bitterness

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Alan McDougall

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #12 - Jun 9^th, 2008 at 5:17am

Greetings Guys,

You know dear people thinking about this hell question again, many many people will be very angry with the powers at be in the afterlife if they are then shown that after living a life of hell on earth, there is another hell waiting for them.

Maybe an everlasting hell like some appaling beliefs. On another forum Can we can sin fininite beings, transgress in an infinite way against an infinite being called God.?

Here is that discourse for your interest.

You know dear people thinking about this hell question again, many many people will be very angry at the powers at be in the afterlife if they are then shown that after living a life of hell on earth, there is another hell waiting for them.

Maybe an everlasting hell like some appalling beliefs. On another forum I guy there we can sin or transgress in an infinite way against an infinite being called God

“Me”

Starvingperson,

Hi,

During my NDE I experienced hell like realms and heavily realms, but not the Christian fundamentalist hell of eternal everlasting torment. If this were the truth then God is worse than Hitler.

If one thinks deeply about the view most fundamental Christian believe about hell. It is completely horrific and unspeakable cruel. Think about a person because of a "finite transgression", being tormented by an "infinite being" in an "infinite way". Burning in a lake sulfur for an eternity day and night forever and ever in linear time. Exist in torment forever, God do this, not my lovely father God!!!!!!

A second in this place would be hideous beyond human thought. Think of taking a little child's hand and forcing it onto red-hot burning stove plate for just 10 minutes, would God do the same and infinitely worse to a human soul forever, and not allow this soul to ever expire.

A former friend , now Christian fundamentalist says because of what I have just stated to the forum and him, my eternal destiny is the hell I don't believe in.

I retract my thoughts in horror and cannot rap my brain round from this unspeakable belief. If there is a devil it is more likely to do this kind of evil. not God, who will purge a soul from its wrong and reintroduce it into the cosmic family of sentient souls when it is ready.

That unredeemable souls might be annihilated is a possibility

Where you in hell? you were not!!!

Hell or no Hell "NO HELL IS MY ANSWER BUT DARK REGIONS YES!! "

Yours

Alan

“Reply”
Quote from: Alan McDougall on Yesterday at 16:22:58
...If one thinks deeply about the view most fundamental Christian believe about hell. It is completely horrific and unspeakable cruel. Think about a person because of a "finite transgression", being tormented by an "infinite being" in an "infinite way"...

I think your premise is faulty. Consider the following points by Jonathan Edwards, and see if you can figure out why:

1) "A crime [transgression] is more or less heinous, according as we are under greater or less obligations to the contrary... because it is herein that the criminalness or faultiness of any thing consists, that it is contrary to what we are obliged or bound to, or what ought to be in us."

2) "The fault of disobeying another, is greater or less, as any one is under greater or less obligations to obey him. And therefore if there be any being that we are under infinite obligations to love, and honour, and obey, the contrary towards him must be infinitely faulty."

From these points Edwards draws the following conclusion:

"...sin against God, being a violation of infinite obligations, must be a crime infinitely heinous... Nothing is more agreeable to the common sense of mankind, than the sins committed against any one, must be proportionably heinous to the dignity of the being offended and abused."

Quotes taken from the essay, "The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners", by Jonathan Edwards

-Michael

mjm,
Quote
2) "The fault of disobeying another, is greater or less, as any one is under greater or less obligations to obey him. And therefore if there be any being that we are under infinite obligations to love, and honour, and obey, the contrary towards him must be infinitely faulty."

"ME"
I see this as somewhat of an ambiguous statement. But I simply cant except that tiny minute infinitesimal organism like us can worry an Infinite Being to the degree that it would punish infinitely for a finite transgression against ourselves

I am a amateur astronomer and when you consider us in relation to the grand order of things, we are very minute indeed. Reducing a colossal star to the size of a pumpkin and putting our supposedly huge sun next to it to compare, it would not smaller than one pixel.

Now our earth is a million times smaller than the sun and we would need an electron microscope to see it on this scale.

Now look a little further down the scale, on this microscope scale or world that, cannot even be seen through a electron microscope , is a biological organism calling itself "humanity" that on this scale would make a quantum particle would exceed the real size of our sun or maybe even a red giant star (a star is just a sun like ours)

Now this "entity" a thing it calls itself "humanity" thinks it is very important, very important indeed
made in the image of the Infinite and, therefore, thinks this inconceivable Infinite Being must punish it for its tiny weenie transgression in an "INFINITE HORRIBLE WAY FOREVER "

Man!!!!!!! are we that important in the grand order of things by this comparison of "solar systems", and on the much grander order of the "billions of times grand order of galaxies" and the "greater grand order of the whole universe and the INFINITE GRAND ORDER EXISTENCE. Come on be real.

Of course if one insists God will give in and can punish infinitely, sort it would be meaningless to him, sort of us keeping alive a roach burning forever just for fun

Our little world out in a remote corner within a galaxy of 400 billion stars which is a universe containing at least 400 billion other galaxies that important and are we that special?

We must get our true importance in its real true perspective, mankind has a long way to go!!
Alan

Reply

Quote from: Alan McDougall on Yesterday at 22:02:12
mjm,

I see this as somewhat of an ambiguous statement.

In what way?
Quote from: Alan McDougall on Yesterday at 22:02:12
But I simply cant except that tiny minute infinitesimal organism like us can worry an Infinite Being to the degree that it would punish infinitely for a finite transgression against ourselves...

But we're not talking about finite transgression, nor are we talking about transgression against ourselves. We're talking about transgression against an infinite being (an infinitely Holy being, actually). What you're trying to do here is quantify transgression in such a manner as to lessen it's offensiveness: 1) by calling it finite, and 2) through redirection (note that the offended party has changed above from that of an infinite being to that of ourselves).

Come on Alan.... what's up

Afterlife forum,

What do you think?

Alan

« Last Edit: Jun 9^th, 2008 at 8:39am by Alan McDougall »

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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vajra

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #13 - Jun 9^th, 2008 at 6:45am

I posted above in the context of setting out the mechanics of transition as taught by some traditions, but if i move to offering a personal but very tentative view of this issue then I can't help feeling that we're by our views mostly still demanding or anticipating that some superior external deity or entity enforce 'justice'.

Which requires a God of a sort that's not what I seem to intuit.

My sense is that it's a simple as this: 'with your mind you make your world'. 'World' meaning your persona and the perceived realities you exist within. In the most literal sense. The other basic is that forgiveness of any resulting 'dream' is automatic - all that's required is that we come to 'see' reality, to wake up from the dream of the delusional belief systems we create that cause suffering.

In physical life we get ourselves stuck in unreality or belief system tunnels. For example - most of us cannot let go of the view that the world operates on the basis of dog eat dog, and rule of the fittest.

So in a futile attempt to minimise our suffering we spend whole lifetimes trying to get ahead at the expense of the other guy, to be top dog. We just can't find it in us to make the jump that says that this is actually the cause of all of the suffering in our life and in the world, that the true reality emerges with dropping identification with self and living through love.

When our spirit or whatever prompts otherwise it's in most cases suppressed by ego as conflicting with our belief systems before we even become consciously aware of it, this reinforced by reference to what the popular dog eat dog based societal conditioning most of us receive.

Individuals like Adolf seem to not just buy into 'rule of the fittest', but to also out of some power hunger or messianistic streak driven by ego to seek to attempt to force an extreme version of this view on the world - justified by, or more likely genuinely of the mistaken belief that it's the answer to its ills.

Add other personal qualities and a particular set of life circumstances where these views find traction, and given the similar view of those opposing you (our vision is better than yours, and we'll fight you to prove - God bless our just war) and next thing you have WW2. Or the horrors of Stalinism, or of any other despot led movement you care to mention. (or the crusading institutional religion seen at differing stages in our history too by the way)

Having headed down this road it becomes harder and harder for the individual to the drop this view, in that it requires him/her coming to terms with the horror of what they have done, and forgiving themselves for it. (to be fair we've not had too many female despots) To admit what's happened of course becomes an 'appalling vista' - one that's impossible for most to consciously entertain. There's also the little matter that if you don't win the battles you've by now set in motion that those opposing you will destroy you and your country.

The sustaining belief is of course that all this suffering is worth it, as it's leading to a golden age (or the thousand year Reich in Adolf's case) - just kill off another few thousand and we'll be there.

This of course is delusional, but they don't see that - or if they do probably not until there's no turning back.

The afterlife scenario is surely no different - there's absolutely no reason to think that mind operates differently there.

If we can accept this, then it seems highly likely that while a temporary separation of spirit from ego/conditioned beliefs provides the opportunity to see this belief system in perspective, drop it and forgive - that most holding the more extreme variants of dog eat dog beliefs will not be able to do so. They will instead as they did (and we all do) in life cling on to their beliefs.

Some traditions teach that those in this situation have such an aversion to 'seeing' the reality that the review stage flashes past and they are propelled on into the process of rebirth without their becoming consciously aware of it. This happening in the same way that ego maintains our beliefs by blocking our ability to perceive otherwise in normal life. Some may for whatever reason not drop their beliefs, but equally refuse to progress to rebirth.

The result of this must surely be that they go on (perhaps with other beings of similar persuasion) to create further not necessarily physical realities based on their beliefs. Which inevitably must be hells, as these beliefs lead only to suffering. There's no doubt the potential for an infinite number of hells based on the various possible shades of belief.

They can of course (as can we in normal life) at any time drop this delusional belief system (forgive themselves, this is also to be forgiven) and revert to a higher reality in keeping with their new beliefs, or if they have managed to transcend beliefs entirely escape the whole cycle of life, death and rebirth. But as these beliefs become more intensive they become ever harder to drop, so this is not easy.

So what happened to Adolf? For me it depends. The intense suffering he too endured, and the possibility that he was the catalyst in a bigger plan for humanity could possibly have greatly reduced his karmic load, and led to his more easily seeing the reality of his behaviour. To his realising and accepting that all that's necessary is to do this to be forgiven.

He may on the other hand still not be able to see, or still not be able to accept that forgiveness comes automatically with seeing - with the result that he's possibly still grasping to his delusional beliefs. Or has dropped his beliefs, but is afraid to move on.

Perhaps if he's still holding on to his beliefs his karma this time is such that he's not having much influence on others, so the effect is confined only to himself and those he comes in direct contact with. Or perhaps out of some subliminal fear of rebirth he's caught in some non-physical reality - one he's busily making hellish for himself if he's not dropped his beliefs.

This is of course only a view, heaven knows what's truly going down.....

« Last Edit: Jun 9^th, 2008 at 9:25am by N/A »

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Alan McDougall

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Re: Hell or no hell
Reply #14 - Jun 9^th, 2008 at 9:08am

Varje,

You said
Quote:

The result of this must surely be that they go on (perhaps with other beings of similar persuasion) to create further not necessarily physical realities based on their beliefs. Which inevitably must be hells, as these beliefs lead only to suffering. There's no doubt the potential for an infinite number of hells based on the various possible shades

If I read, you right, if these people insist on believing and embracing this awful appalling concept of an eternal place of infinite torment. God/ themselves whatever will create just such a place to satisfy their misplaced beliefs.es of belief!

As for me, there is just no such eternal place on my agenda.!!!

We are of course not as unimportant as I presented us to the other forum in that astronomy way.

We are thought and light and that can expand outward into Infinity and in real reality size of course is just an illusion just like time space etc etc

Einstein said the amazing thing about man, is not that he is unable to comprehend, but that he is able to comprehend so much.

I just put that view on the other forum to provoke dialogue and see if they come up with a logical answer like yours. They have not yet.

All of creation is based on logic so it is logical to me that an Infinite being will find it a waste of effort and time to painfully create a place of everlasting torment, most religions refer to as hell

Of course, I acknowledge my logic might be misplaced and incorrect, as I have not yet reached the level of infallibility.

Guys I am what the internet fundies refer to as "fat-fingered" I so often strike the wrong letter on my key board unnoticed to me and have to go back and modify my mistakes I am no typist!!

Alan

Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall

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