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Advaita Vedanta.. (Read 11822 times)
briggs5534
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Advaita Vedanta..
May 25th, 2008 at 10:04pm
 
Has anyone really studied this philosophy or even heard of it?? If, so what are your thoughts about it?? To me it seems a bit out there, yet it rings with a lot of truths...

peace n' love
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LaffingRain
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #1 - May 26th, 2008 at 1:22am
 
Vendanta sounds familiar word, but no, unless it's Indian from India teachings?

feel free to discuss it though, maybe we could comparisons.
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vajra
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #2 - May 26th, 2008 at 9:25am
 
My knowledge is limited Briggs, but it's as far as i know one of the very reputable major schools of Hindu Vedantic teaching that emphasises non-duality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonduality They teach that only God or Brahmin is real, that all of the relative or dualistic time/space stuff that we perceive as reality is ultimately unreal.

That's the topic that has been the subject of much discussion here. My understanding is that in many ways like Buddhism it teaches  that even though the relative reality is 'unreal', and a creation of the ego (individual and collective) that ultimately we have to guided by teaching to engage correctly with it in ordinary life in order to eventually transcend it. That it's (ordinary life) important and can't be ignored.

This article outlines a problem that has developed around the popularised ersatz versions sometimes seen in the West which with comments like 'we're all enlightened' ignores the view of most that there seems usually to be a long road involved in reaching the state where duality and individuality may be transcended: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/aziz2.html

There's teachers around who essentially teach from an Advaita-like nondual perspective all the time - like Tony Parsons http://www.theopensecret.com/index.shtml He draws in a very specific way on this perspective in his teaching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5-zMV1x6q0

It produces a style of teaching which as a result of his always pointing out that the questions are coming from a personal viewpoint  sounds like continuous put downs of his questioners. He may well be a realised teacher, or may not. I'm unsure.

If misused non dual teaching can be misunderstood. For example - yes, from a non-dual/timeless/eternal now/absolute reality perspective we all are already realised. But from a dualistic/time based or conventional view we are not - we all will eventually become enlightened, but this will take time.

The underlying logic of his approach (which is possibly representative of a certain more purist  interpretation of Advaita teaching that seems to be around) is I think that it's regarded as a mistake to get involved in discussing or working with stuff from a relative personal path perspective, as this just reinforces and augments ego. (the package of beliefs that create the illusion of selfhood and the reality we inhabit, and the idea that there is a path to becoming enlightened)

The teaching is that we're as a result of our mistaken view naturally inclined to think in terms of striving and path. But that this striving is itself just another form of the grasping after or attachment to mind made  conceptual realities that keeps us locked in this reality. A failure to remain 'in the now' as Eckhardt Tolle might put it - we get identified with chasing after an imaginary future state that can never come into being as a result of our identification with it. (a sort of existential catch 22)

There's also a view that religious institutions tend to emphasise path because as purveyors of the tools that allow us to 'progress' along the path it gives them power.

The flipside is that it's tempting to conclude 'well then there's nothing I can do to progress spiritually'. My personal sense is that this isn't true. (see below on fear and stress)

Completely avoiding engagement with ego stuff is possibly a bit of a tall order, in that even language is structured in a way that that presumes this personal/relative view. The idea I think is that if we stop reinforcing ego it increases the possibility that we may awaken. i.e. drop these delusions, revert to a non dual consciousness.

The likes of Buddhism and I think Advaita in its original form (correct me if I'm wrong) would agree that striving or grasping after spiritual objectives is counter productive, but that on the other hand correct use of practices like meditation, teaching, reflection and so on (i.e. without striving - possibly a tall order too?) help to speed progress.

The logic being basically that unless we get our lives reasonably under control so that we are not overstressed and riven by raw fear into creating a crazy, selfish dog eat dog environment that forces us in order to survive to act in a way that will provoke fear in others, the chances of our creating enough space/calmness in our minds to enable the sort of intuitive leap realisation requires is minimal.

It's a very tough issue to bottom, and one that I personally struggle with.

Most that achieve something regarded as enlightenment seem to get there via some sort of spiritual path. Experience suggests that spiritual practices like meditation do deliver changed consciousness, marked by breakthroughs of one sort or another like e.g. calmness, insight, the release of emotional blockages.

Yet many report that the real breakthrough only occurred when they finally despaired and gave up the path, gave up striving.

Buddhism teaches of path as being like a raft you use to cross a river on your way to a city. Having reached the far shore one has to leave the raft (teaching) behind to get to the destination.

That spiritual practice somehow can get you into a zone where the likelihood of the great 'ah-ha' moment or leap of insight occurring is more likely, but that ultimately we have to release this too as you can't fight fire with fire, or transition to a new reality by means of the logic of the old  .....

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SHSS
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #3 - May 26th, 2008 at 10:09am
 
Vajra, not that I am trying to over bloat your ego, but I am in awe at how well you worded this.  I have even printed it out.  I agree completely with what you said, but I had no idea how to put it into words and I can see that you have done, IMO, a great, fantastic, job.  Thank You!


Love,
SHSS   Smiley Kiss Smiley
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vajra
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #4 - May 26th, 2008 at 11:47am
 
Wink  Smiley That's me screwed then, I can feel that ego bearing down already...

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briggs5534
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #5 - May 27th, 2008 at 11:35am
 
Yes, Vajra that is basically it about advaita vedanta.. To me it has helped me out and taken my fears away of hell.. It's the only thing out there really that makes you think and come to your own conclusions about it's wonderful teachings.. It is also, known for unteaching the false lies and myths created by Religions..


peace n' love
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #6 - May 27th, 2008 at 1:03pm
 
Briggs:

For a number of years I was hardcore follower of Advaita Vedanta. I really put a lot of effort into this approach. Eventually I found that such teachings have their limitations.  They basically claim that the world is nothing but a big mistake, illusion, and that only pure awareness counts.

I've found that unless awareness has something to be aware of, there is no point in having awareness. That which we are aware of, comes from no other place but the creative aspect of our being. I believe it is really dualistic to deny the creative aspect of our being. We deny ourselves when we do so. Even qualities such as happiness and love are qualities that are brought to life by the creative aspect of our being. How valuable would our existence be if we didn't have such valuable qualities to experience?

Advaita Vendata teachings are very big on the guru principle. Supposedly gurus are infallible and their word shouldn't be doubted. I believe this is a "BIG" mistake. None of us are infallible. Each of us is capable of getting it wrong now and then. None of us should be put on a pedestal. Rather than becoming reliant on what some supposed all knowing guru says, we should make contact with our higher self and find our answers this way. I've done so, and I've found out so much more and grew so much more than I ever did with guru based Advaita Vendata like teachings.  I'm not saying that we can't learn from others.  But not in the restrictive manner that often takes place with the guru disciple relationship.

I believe it can very helpful to make contact with spirit guidance, which can have quite a bit of overlap with one's higher self.  However, I've found that spirit guidance doesn't look for the kind of adulation gurus tend to seek and receive. I've also found that spirit guidance leaves us a lot of room to figure things out for ourselves, rather than say, "This is how it is."

One of the key things I've found after seperating myself from Advaita Vedanta, is that we do have eternal souls. Just because life as a manifested being seems limited and imperfect while living as a physical person, this doesn't mean that life stays this way until we identify ourselves as being nothing but pure awareness.  Once we get to the point where our lessons no longer bind us and we live completely according to love and wisdom, perhaps the sky is the limit.

I don't mean to suggest that Advaita Vedanta doesn't have anything to say. I agree with the principle that happiness and peace are found inside, and that our true self is beyond our body based existence.
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #7 - May 27th, 2008 at 1:23pm
 
Vajra mentioned Tony Parsons. I read very little of one of his books and then stopped. He wrote than when a person's body dies that person's body merges back with pure consciounsness and that's it.  If one makes significant contact with the spirit World one finds that there is much more to the spirit realms than just pure consciousness. Spirit beings and what they create exist with levels of organization that are hard for us to imagine while here in the physical. The fact of how Tony Parsons would make such a comment tells me that he doesn't know about what exists beyond this physical World.

Regarding the existence of an ego, if it wasn't for the fact that each of us does exist as a unique Soul,  each of us wouldn't have the ability to consider the ego argument in our own way.  I believe it is more of a matter of whether we choose to be a Soul who lives according to love and divine wisdom, or according to self centerdness. If you consider an individual to be a collection of thoughts, could one portion of that collection of thoughts look at the collection of thoughts as a whole and think them out of existence? If an individual found a way to live that is completely wonderful, would this individual choose to think its way out of existence? Going by what's been revealed to me and what makes sense, our existence evolves to a point where we abide in a magnificient state of love and oneness with God and many other Souls. If each of us didn't exist as a unique Soul, there wouldn't be any beings to share a state of love and oneness with. Just one self all by itself.
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #8 - May 27th, 2008 at 5:19pm
 
Briggs said: To me it has helped me out and taken my fears away of hell.

thats good news to me Briggs. There's been way too much hell and damnation preaching coming out of Christian doctine...if you found something get you beyond that false concepts of hell, i can only say that's good news.

I don't think the particular pathway we take, eastern or western is important, it's what you do with what you've learned that is important.

Ian, happy ego bloat  Wink
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vajra
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #9 - May 27th, 2008 at 7:21pm
 
Hi Briggs. That's good to hear. I guess one of the most valuable perspectives taught by not just the eastern traditions but perhaps all reputable spiritual paths is the releasing of attachment to beliefs and hang ups of one sort or another. (and by extension avoidance of attachment to new ones)

In one way this means caring (giving life our best shot in the knowledge that some ways of living are more conducive to happiness than others), but in another as Alysia says 'not caring what happens'. Not  fighting the flow of life by trying to impose our personal demands on it - by backing off to a more holistic higher view, and as a result becoming amenable to all outcomes.

ACIM uses the term 'forgivenness' in what's to me a similar sense.

Another perspective is you might say trusting in the natural goodness of ourselves, and the reality we exist within. Knowing that it's inevitable that we'll get it wrong sometimes, or that we'll encounter rocky patches, but that in the end these all help us to learn, and that we're not going to be penalised by some vengeful God for our little boo boos. (this suggests that it behoves us to allow space to others too)

The tendency of some forms of institutional religion to instill beliefs leading to high levels of fear and a sense of exclusivity in people seems always to have a lot to do with vested interests - if as a preacher you want power, then there's nothing quite like a healthy fear of death to  maximise the value of your product, and the leverage it confers.

The language and emphasis varies a bit, but the sort of view transmitted by traditional Advaita is pretty similar to that conveyed by all of the reputable spiritual traditions - whether the many varieties of Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Egyptian or others. I think it was Aldous Huxley who described this generic view as the 'perennial philosophy' - it's been around in various expressions in civilizations from the earliest all around the world for many thousands of years, and keeps on resurfacing in new forms to suit the time.

It's of course possible as R points up to hold a variety of shades of view within this - for example depending as before on whether we focus on the absolute non-dual perspective, or the relative as being the most important aspect of existence.

My personal sense is that much like getting sucked into believing in hells it's a mistake to get too hung up on one extreme or the other - that both are important aspects of the total picture. To quote Einstein - God doesn't play dice - if it comes into our life it's probably for good reason.

We of course need to watch out too as R says for dodgy varieties, but I guess we each have to follow our own hearts and make our own decisions in this regard.

Too much certainty on what's right and wrong is probably as above unwise  too - given that we can realistically ask questions about the what and the how of existence, but are unlikely to anytime soon get any meaningful grasp of the why.

My personal experience is that staying open is key. It's tempting to find a belief system we feel comfortable with, and to dig in to thereafter defend it. But of course with experience we'll if we can stay open repeatedly trip over perspectives and experience that mean we have to amend and expand our view  - meaning it's at best a work in progress. We may even find ourselves propelled by a leap in intuition (if we're open enough to see) into a whole new view at some point

I've been reading 'Life After Death' by Deepak Chopra recently. I'd avoided him for years as I felt he was perhaps just a little too 'pop', but I have to say that it's to me a truly masterful and very accessible open discussion of what the various traditions in this space have to say on this topic. (and also the topic of our 'what survives' thread)

While the terms used by the traditions themselves can be a bit opaque, he has a huge talent for explaining the various views in everyday terms...
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #10 - May 27th, 2008 at 10:13pm
 
hi all, maybe we're getting away from the discussion of Vedanta. nobody yet told me if that's Indian?
if you want to share more Briggs, what some of the truths are you read, I'm sure I'd like to hear about it.

quote from Ian:
While the terms used by the traditions themselves can be a bit opaque, he has a huge talent for explaining the various views in everyday terms..(Chopra)

I think this is a plug for getting away from too much intellectualism and not enough hands on simple everyday language which is unmistakable. pragmatism?

oh, Ian, you misquoted me dear, it was "Not Minding What Happens" (Krishnamurti said it, I am understanding it is a balanced, eye of the storm stance/being) but should not be inferred I do not Care what happens. I do. I just am ready for whatever action my higher self tells me to do, without my emotions restricting my actions.

like fear, I mean.  you mention Forgiveness, this is a way of being, of non judgment, for I don't have all the facts of each life form on this planet, nor their intentions or purposes, so I live in a glass house.
if I don't throw stones, I won't get my glass house stones thrown at it and break apart.

We are not saving the world. We are letting that happen THROUGH us. scuse my shout.

Forgiveness is what JC advocates as well, as it releases the problem to Brahman, higher self, God, All That Is, all the names for the creator. there, in trust, (you guys need to work with emotional expression more, and less testosterone expression)  men in general are more aggressive natured than women is what I mean. you've been trained that way.

so trust. Trust what needs to be done will come to you, exactly when you open your minds to it, and not hang on to all sorts of grudges. We only have today, and yesterday is gone.

Peace, don't forget to smell a flower either Smiley
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #11 - May 28th, 2008 at 12:24pm
 
Hey Alysia, It's not Indian.. I don't know exactly what it comes from...

Recoverer I see what your saying.. The people that I talk to that are more enlightened than I, say to figure it yourself.. By that they mean your higher self. They don't seem to say they know everything or they are a spiritual guru.. So, I think you must of been around the wrong teachers of advaita vedanta..  You should check out theeternalstate.org it's by Charlie Hayes.. He's a great teacher..

Plus, when they are talking about we merge back into pure consciousness (brahman) they are talking from the only real reality.. That we all are infinite consciousness and more than just our bodies.. The only reason there is an afterlife, is because people still believe they are their "bodies."

I've never read his books.. I might be wrong about what he means.. But that's how some of my teachers are.. How they say stuff about the only reality is that infinite consciousness I "AM." Then they talk about the illusion of self is where you reincarnate and all that stuff.. But really there is no reincarnation, since there is only "NOW."

peace n' love
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #12 - May 28th, 2008 at 12:43pm
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ckl6P3Ubv7E This is one of the teachers that I talk to via email and youtube. His name is Burt Harding...

Here's another video from my other teacher, Charlie Hayes.. http://youtube.com/watch?v=i0wikAuVaFQ

Enjoy!!

peace n' love
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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #13 - May 28th, 2008 at 1:19pm
 
briggs:

I found out about Advaita Vedanta teachers about 26 years ago, so I'm well aware of what's available. I can't say anything about Charlie Hayes because I don't know him. I'm not looking for a teacher.

Through extensive study I've found that teachers of Advaita Vedanta aren't the all knowing masters they present themselves to be. Existence isn't just one big illusion.  The spirit realms that exist are very intricate and were created by spirit beings who understood the limitations of the Advaita Vedanta way of teaching long ago. When one communicates with such beings on a regular basis and sees what they are capable of, one sees that there is much Advaita Vedanta teachers aren't aware of. It is most definitely possible to use the creative aspect of being in a manner that is meaningful.

We can paint ourselves into a corner in different ways.  Fundamentalism isn't the only way.  Since I was exposed to the game years ago, I know of people who hopped around from guru to guru before they found out how such an approach doesn't work.

It is one thing to tell people that they don't need a guru and then surround yourself with a bunch of followers, and another thing to say people don't need a guru and not surround yourself with a bunch of followers. There are gurus out there that know the game, and use reverse psychology. They say what people want to hear.


briggs5534 wrote on May 28th, 2008 at 12:24pm:
Hey Alysia, It's not Indian.. I don't know exactly what it comes from...

Recoverer I see what your saying.. The people that I talk to that are more enlightened than I, say to figure it yourself.. By that they mean your higher self. They don't seem to say they know everything or they are a spiritual guru.. So, I think you must of been around the wrong teachers of advaita vedanta..  You should check out theeternalstate.org it's by Charlie Hayes.. He's a great teacher..

Plus, when they are talking about we merge back into pure consciousness (brahman) they are talking from the only real reality.. That we all are infinite consciousness and more than just our bodies.. The only reason there is an afterlife, is because people still believe they are their "bodies."

I've never read his books.. I might be wrong about what he means.. But that's how some of my teachers are.. How they say stuff about the only reality is that infinite consciousness I "AM." Then they talk about the illusion of self is where you reincarnate and all that stuff.. But really there is no reincarnation, since there is only "NOW."

peace n' love

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Re: Advaita Vedanta..
Reply #14 - May 28th, 2008 at 1:42pm
 
Recoverer,

I know what you mean about some of the gurus out there that teach advaita.. You found this out 26 years ago?? Jeez you must be old lol j/k.. Well, I c what you mean about the spirits and what not... I'm pretty sure though that we are more than just our bodies.. I'm pretty sure we all are infinite consciousness and love.. I know those are some truths I agree with, that they teach to me.. Also, haven't you read the holographic universe by Michael Talbot?? It shows that the advaita teaching is right that our world is a big illusion..

Well, I don't know but I also agree with them that there is no hell as well..

I've gone from a lot of different approaches, so not to say that I'll be stuck at advaita my whole life..

Thanks, for your interest in this topic and your replies!!

peace n' love
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