rondele wrote on Mar 28^th, 2008 at 2:54pm:

_______

Hi Rondele, we seem to be studying the same areas of thought so I thought I'd do a take off you. if the brain which goes haywire is not our true self, then whatever is true returns to source. From studying who and what we are, trying to ascertain that, it's a life long pursuit as you mentioned, it continue to become potentialized in the afterlife areas.

Dalmer was a study of mine also, but he is just one person who went haywire. Another study of the criminal brain, Alan, did show distinct differences. Curiously, we study some persons, who appear to be soul-less. (no conscious, not knowing right from wrong.)

then if we look closer at psychology, at what we know, and if we look at how the human repeats certain behaviors learned, we can see the brain functions for the soul or spirit as a computer.

We come into the world innocent of programs. Our parents and teachers soon tell us what to think and what to do, thus we get programmed. In that sense we are all responsible for the crime in the world. Instead of picking out a murderer to study, the problem can be viewed that not only is single units programmed to kill, but we have the case of nation against nation resulting in killing, yet sanctioned by government.

Still, taking the individual who is soul-less from ACIM viewpoint. Dalmer, for instance. It was reported he ate his victims so that his victims would achieve immortality through him. most twisted and sick, but no more twisted and sick than to take a look at our legal killing constructs.

In this regard we could conjecture we all share in the world which we are responsible to find out how the brain can get so twisted and not blame everything on God for creating an imperfect world where we can get killed for merely being a part of it. so I say, we are on the right track to be discussing the horrors we see around us.
(an aside, Alfred, your mother is delightful, she wanted to experience this way to go, I conjecture, it is sometimes easier to transition slowly back into the spirit realm, as with the brain declining this way. Part of the care you took of her, was tremendously adding to your own growth in PUL and understanding, I love u started this thread, sorry to shanghie it.)

So the killing machines need to be understood, how it got twisted. We all know a soldier can be trained to kill easily enough. boot camp is an example.
With Dalmer, I believe he took the Oneness concept a bit too far! as to his soul plan, I'm certain he did not enter the Earth Plane to do this dirty deed.
So I'd say if I thought some on it, in terms of what ACIM tells me, he felt so alienated, so separated from everyone and everything, as well God, he felt he could add something unto himself by eating his victims, and do them a favor at the same time by granting them immortality within his body.
Obviously, he wasn't thinking correctly and his twisted thought forms which he produced are not the truth of our being, and will be dissolved consequently in the lowest astral.

His basic essence, that without personality, that without twisted thought forms, gets distilled once more back into it's pure essence. I have heard there are some rare cases, where such a one manages to completely break free of the disc connections, where guidance of higher intuition, the soul, the oversoul, God, whatever we call it, where the sense of disconnection is too intense, nothing had been gained from such a life, and so nothing useful which could continue into a plus factor in the afterlife.

We're supposed to bring our individual gifts back to the disc, I don't know, but it seems Dalmer probably never did a kind deed to animal or man, and so no gifts to add to the humanity.

In the end we can't say for certain what happens to him, or even if there is a real person inside of him. we could say he is an example of a lost soul that society bred but not God.

In tring to figure these things out, we could  say in the beginning we broke off or separated from God, and that very separation caused us to try and prove to God we could live without God, we could make death real; this is what is called ego thinking by the Course. As you and I knowthe ego can be a vicious thing. The only thing we have to work with in the Earth Plan is Free will. The choice to do good or evil, or as ACIM and other sources explain perceiving our world correctly or incorrectly, what is called true perception and false perception.

keeping in mind that true or false perception is the road to knowledge of God, but is not knowledge itself, nor is it the wisdom that a soul can gain by incarnating here.

in essence we are all perceiving differently, either truly or falsely. In future times I project care will taken to teach all children a spiritual path and this through constant attendance within PUL, within disapline. For too long, it's my thought, the kid takes on the errors of the parents...we might want to study the preventative medicine rather than the disease if we're looking to end the killing.

I think the fundamental problem remains and will ever remain, when it is assumed that God created everything, then God created as well brains, the society, and all the (sometimes terrible) things which follow from that.
  The only solution is, to let go of the traditional attributes of "God". For example, when we attribute God to be "good", then we will not get it together with all those bad things happening. So either we don't make this attributation, or we make a difference between the godly goodness, which we don't know what it is, and the common-sense goodness.

So, what's left is, as Alysia said, "to find out how the brain can get so twisted", well, to find out what's happening, and why. The final "why" though will not be answered, at least not in words.

But we won't get very far when we make the brain responsible for the bad deeds, and the soul for the good deeds. You know, we all would be angels, and our flaws would come from our brains, which we are not responsible for. That doesn't work. As well the term "soulless" is unusable. When is a person soulless? When a person has killed one? Or two? Or more? And, when a person is declared as soulless, then it isn't a person anymore, but only a body? It could be killed then without being a crime, cause it would be just a body. No, that doesn't work neither.

Spooky

I think we get into perilous territory when we begin to discuss the merits of another person's soul. Another person's soul has value beyond measure, in my opinion.

I think we have to separate the deeds from the doer. Ultimately, that is all we can do. We can set up social structures to support those who show these tendencies early in life.

It is always a tragedy when a person takes the wrong path, especially when it could have been avoided by earlier intervention. There are no redeeming qualities to a path such as this case you speak of. However, I think it is important to recognize that we are so shamed by belonging to our tribe of human beings, who practice acts of violence and humiliation all over the world, that we don't really want to own this as ours.

But, without a doubt, even this soul brought some happiness to someone along the way. I think we have to believe in a God who, having allowed Dalmer/Dahmer (sp?) to come into existence, has the mercy which is required to balance this fact.

As I see it, there is little mercy for the weak in this world. There is, instead, an eventual end to this brief life. Often, that is merciful beyond description.

So merciful that we long for it occasionally, for an end to all the painful experiences.

We wonder why we are brought into a world of pain, through pain, by pain. There seem to be no answers.

But, assuredly, as humans, we are children. Why does it seem that no one is watching us? No one looking out for us so that we don't do terrible things? That's a very good question.

love, blink

Below is from Wikipedia (At the bottom of this post.) It shows that Dahmer might've had some issues at an early age. The fact of how his father forced him to join the Army shows the possibility of a father who was difficult to deal with.

I believe this World is a part of our soul's developmental process, so I believe it is a mistake to call it imperfect.  Negativity is a possibility, because without the play of contrasts this World includes, we couldn't have the lessons we need to learn. I do believe that the human race is engaging in too much negativity. We weren't supposed to go this far astray. We need to improve things.

Regarding Dahmer, with the World being the way it is, some people are liable to go astray. This is proven over and over again. I don't mean to state that some people were completely lacking in choice. I had a dream the other night that related to the human conscious. The dream showed that at first our conscious is very noticeable. Sometimes people don't listen to it for whatever reason. The more they choose not to do so, the harder it becomes to hear, until it seems like a distant stranger.  Therefore, even a child in a difficult life situation has a choice in the beginning.  Of course things tend to work out better when a lot of positive choices and influences are available.

Even if a person makes bad choices, I believe it is important to open our hearts to such a person when such a person moves in another direction. I don't like to think in terms of forgiveness, because there is a bit of judgement involved when one thinks in terms of forgiveness. Once a person/soul decides to move in the direction of the light, it is more of a matter of such a person/soul forgiving itself.  Once a person/soul decides to move in a positive direction, that which can be judged no longer exists.

Perhaps there might be some karmic responsibilities, but this is a different matter. Something any responsible and loving soul would want to attend to.  I believe it is significant that we start out as light, for the sake of a greater good get confused for a short while, and for the rest of eternity abide as the beautiful light beings we are. No sense in getting hung up because some of us end up getting more confused than others. Perhaps the souls who take on incarnations with all kinds of negative influences should be given credit.

From Wikipedia:
""Early life
Dahmer was born in West Allis, Wisconsin, to Lionel, an analytical chemist, and Joyce Dahmer. At age 8 his family moved to Bath, Ohio, where he attended Revere High School. Dahmer dissected dead animals as a child, and by his teenage years was an alcoholic loner.[citation needed]

Dahmer attended Ohio State University, but dropped out after two terms. Dahmer's father then forced him to enlist in the Army, where he was to serve for a six-year enlistment; he was discharged after two, due to his excessive drinking. When the Army discharged Dahmer in 1981, they provided him with a plane ticket to anywhere in the country. Dahmer told police he couldn't go home to face his father, so he headed to Miami Beach, Florida, because he was "tired of the cold." He spent most of his time there at a hospital but was kicked out shortly after for drinking.[1]

In 1982, Dahmer moved in with his grandmother in West Allis, where he lived for six years. In August of that year, he was arrested for exposing himself at a state fair. In September 1986, he was charged again with public exposure after two boys accused him of masturbating in public. This time he was sentenced to a year in prison, of which he served 10 months. In the summer of 1988 Dahmer's grandmother asked him to move out due to his late nights and foul smells from the basement. He then found an apartment on Milwaukee's West side. On September 25, 1988, he was arrested for sexually fondling a 13-year-old boy in Milwaukee, for which he served 10 months of a one year sentence in a work release camp. He was required to register as a sex offender. He convinced the judge that he needed therapy, and he was released with a five-year probation on good behavior. Shortly thereafter, he began a string of murders that would end with his arrest in 1991.""

spooky2 wrote on Apr 29^th, 2008 at 9:39pm:


the soul less thing is just a theory, that is to say I do believe in certain places of the Earth, societies brain washing is an example, that this has been accomplished on certain people, in native tribes, secret societies there have been a few reports of zombies produced.

I know of one case where a man's soul exited his body, yet his body got up and prepared to make his usual routine of getting coffee made before keeling over in death. He had a hatchet in his head. bodies can live like vegetables, but there is no soul in there. In the same way studies have been made upon certain extreme cases that a criminal truly does not know right from wrong, and this is determined by the courts and shrinks, and this is what I meant by "having no conscious." they, these RARE cases think what they did was "right."
So we may be looking at how the ego always thinks it's right, no matter what harm it has done upon another, it blocks out the truth.  Soul less does not work Spooky, when we are considering our oneness within PUL, which is all encompassing.
PUL is understanding our criminal minds, by probing their minds with a Light. Also, it won't work to try and say that we can fight evil this way, as a force of itself, this doesn't work either. and it doesn't work very well to say God allows evil. I think you're on the right track, that we change our conception of God, maybe to a sound working principles of action based on PUL's authority.

It's part of the feeling separate from God and treating God as a personage, to hold God accountable for atrocities here. This is why ACIM will say we are here, having ourselves a nightmare.

When we awaken, the nightmare begins to disappear as reality sets in. We are waking up, and you, are one of those who awakens ahead of the others, my opinion.

Alan:

I believe things are set up so that all of us eventually return to God. Numerous trustworthy sources support this idea.  It is true that each of have free will, but eventually each of us will come to the point where we find that there is only one good choice. A choice that enables us to live according to happiness, peace, goodness, beauty and love for all of eternity. Even people who get lost for a while do so because they weren't able to find the love that all of us want. To suggest that my last statement is false, is to suggest that there are little children in this World who aren't seeking love. Do such little children exist, or do they all have a natural inner yearning for love that the circumstances of their lives sometimes don't provide?

Regarding the family members of a person who gets murdered, eventually each of these family members will find themselves in a heavenly realm. Will such spirits continue to have bad feeling towards the person who killed one of these family members when all of them now find themselves in a realm of perfection, or will the love and wisdom they live according to cause them to want to see this person move onto the light? If they hold on to bad feelings, they won't be able to move on to the light.

Alan McDougall wrote on Apr 30^th, 2008 at 1:44pm:


more from Alan, a consensus sort of to this thread:  I RESTATE MY POSITION THAT THE SOUL IS NEITHER CREATED GOOD OR EVIL BUT IN A NEUTRAL STATE OF INNOCENCE THAT ALLOWS FOR GROWTH AND POTENTIAL.

ALL SOULS START OUT WITH A FREE WILL AND “NEUTRAL INNOCENCE” WHICH ALLOWS FOR  POTENTIAL AND EACH CHOSE THEIR OWN LIFE PATH.
______

I'll just add my somewhat vacant 2 cents...let us be the ones to help the Dahmer's make another choice.

thanks to everyone here helping me see more clearly.