Continuing to ponder things here with Recoverer. I don't consider Buddism a religion but perhaps some would.  Since our beliefs will outpicture for ourselves into our transitions, I happen to be on topic today.  I don't consider any religion to be perfect one or correct one.
and now before our feature presentation we shall have a cartoon:

R, I made a new topic due to I didn't want to mess up George's topic thread with this new stuff.
I wrote this for me, you don't need to answer it especially. thank u for the things you have done for this board over the years just by your presence.

R said:enlightenment, I prefer to think in terms of getting to the point where one can live according to love completely. Things will take care of themselves once a person reaches this point.
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We are in agreement on this point and this point is in alignment with this boards premise also. We often argue the means to get to this premise by the discussion of the many religions, belief systems, books, personal experiences, etc. The same never ending questions come up here over the years. Since the practice of focusing on how you say “things will take care of themselves, once a person reaches this point, maybe it would be best instead of arguing the differences of thought systems, to focus on doing our own inner journies and sharing them without expectations around the sharing that we would be in agreement, yet having faith is what you just said to me. Yet, even this, we cannot really expect the same questions will not occur.
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R said:
Regarding examples of why it was good to forget my night in heaven experience for a while,  Consider the meditation group I used to be a member of, the one I've spoken about before. If I had remembered my night in heaven experience, I would not have become involved with the group.
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So I conclude the result was worth the experience? my vocabulary does not use the word cult as that implies a lack of taking responsibility for what has happened to you by projecting blame on the outside of yourself. A cult, then becomes a convenient scapegoat but at the same time makes one feel inside to be a victim. I think you no longer feel like a victim but you might have felt like that at one time.
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Reminds me of feeling like a victim of love. looking back, just yakking now, I entered willingly every painful circumstance because of what I wanted to believe, and purposefully ignoring that I was about to become victimized, only because I now was viewing something quite unreal. the funny thing is I’d do it all again for the result of becoming free from repitition of illusions that lack of love was a cage I would never escape.
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Love in inclusive, not exclusive and so all thoughts, beliefs, can expand into the truth of what is all encompassing.

If we argue we are not enlightened, not worthy, not there yet,  incapable of miracle mindedness, we are essentially calling JC, who is One with God, and who declares we are also One with God, a liar, and to call him a liar is an attack on god. The ego attacks, God thinkers transmutes or dispels shadow. We have only two choices of creativity here; we can project love or we can project fear and hatred defeating the purpose of his kingdom come.

None can be excluded in a Oneness concept. That includes killers, rapists, cults, Buddhist as well as Mother Theresa; yet they each have a mansion or belief system level to be at or within. what is true for all, is the urge to express PUL.
R says:
Despite the fact that the group was led by a false guru, there were benefits of being with the group.
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U had me thinking they had done evil things to you, betrayed you and for this you were out for their heads.  Honestly R, I wasn't there. I never met the one whom you implied enacted a crime upon you. I cannot comment then. All I can conjecture from your communications to us, was that you placed a huge responsibility on some guru to ensure your own enlightenment. I would not be able to judge this guru unless I met him face to face, and even then before judging, all that I was absorbing would have to be taken into my closet for my own god conversation.
Just because guru is teaching Buddhism, I could not make a blanket statement that Buddhism is at fault, as well anything that comes from the East. thats rather a sweeping statement. convenient, but untrue.
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R’s list:
1.There were a lot of wonderful loving people in the group. It was a positive experience to interact with them for a number of years. We learned from each other.
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I think we do that here on the board as well when we're not howling at the moon.
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2.I had two cats that I loved. It was good to dedicate myself to life forms other than myself.
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I remember loving animals when I couldn't love people. they certainly are unconditional lovers aren't they?
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3.I learned about healthy ways of eating.
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lol. I'm not going to ask you what u were putting in your body before. seems like a loaded question.
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4.I spent a lot of time meditating, which provided me with a lot of practice tuning into the awareness aspect of myself. Unfortunately the teachings didn't acknowledge the creative aspect of being enough. If one wants to become an integrated being, one needs to learn to be a master of all of one's self, rather than denying the existence of half of one's self.
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some good some bad there on the meditation technique I’d say. Reflecting here for myself, I only meditated on out of body journeys. what they meant to me, how I could express myself in a creative way through viewing myself, thoughts, feelings, all facets.
Integration of self is a vast subject; we could see nonintegration as being a scatterered individual. to be creative I see as to learn to be creating one’s internal reality, through PUL, and try not to get killed while doing it, yet neither be afraid of getting killed. and also, I like Kathy’s logo, go gently through life..there’s really nothing wrong going on here but what I think it is. I mean in hindsight of course.


the trick is not to feel threatened by whom is expressing differently, by thinking ego thoughts of "less than, or more than." that takes daily walking meditation.

The reward is how quickly we can be self correcting to accept responsibility we brought every pain upon our own self, by believing what somebody else said was true. I think the best course of action is to test out what you think is true, and find out for yourself. In that sense, life is an experiment, even thought the atonement has already occurred.
R said:
5.I dedicated a lot of my free time to the group. It is true that the group was led by a false guru and its teachings had limitations. However, because I dedicated time with a spirit of giving, it spiritually benefited me to do so.
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C1 is a by definition the limited experience, not specifically the Buddhist religion, but life itself is expression within a limited body environment which in itself suggests partial truths and untruths as well as true and false perceptions. I wouldn't make of religion a scapegoat but we might do this for awhile if we think that thought system is to blame for all our discomfort with our own internal climate as well even the entire world.
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6.      It was important for me to find out through my own experience what eastern teachings are about. I wouldn't be able to receive spirit guidance and practice in the manner I do today, if I didn't first find out to what extent eastern teachings are true.
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Western teachings are mostly Christian premised, yet Christianity came out of the East. what I'm saying is all religions and beliefs are open to individual interpretations and there's no wrong or right belief system, if we subscribe to a balanced perspective and that we are here to experience life through a limited human experience. but I see what you're saying, you are saying to get to B, you first had to do step A.
We don’t have many full fledged Buddhists here on a board like this. I have no full and comprehensive overview on Buddhism and have no need to explore it’s fullness. What I have glimpsed, if Buddhism purports that man’s ego is needing subdueing, I am in alignment with that, as you can see, something needs subdueing if a planet still thinks war, rather than communication, is the answer to global problems.
Any thought system which makes one look within rather than without, can’t be all that bad to me.
R said:
7.      My life isn't over yet, so who knows what benefits will be found in the future. 
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oh lol, I thought you were done here! just kidding.  You seem to be a great manipulator of your own reality. If you are entering the gratitude part of the journey which is basically there is nothing good, there is nothing bad happening then you are free. I need do nothing but accept it is already done, speaking in terms of the journey has been accomplished despite my efforts to fix perfection.   I have no expectations I will be understood by talking this way. so I usually don't talk this way. No ascended master expected understanding either. we can take them by their word though if the word resounds with truth, that even greater things we will be doing if we can, and we can, get thru all the grid hoopla of the extravaganza of life and all those side roads we take to mastery.

I see you are dying with your boots on. You crack me up. lets all slide into home thoroughly used up but utterly satisfied.

Alysia,

I loved your Moses cartoon.  It reminded me of a cartoon that a feminist nun taped to her office door at the unversity where I used to teach.  In the cartoon, Moses is  standing on Mount Sinai and is holding the tablets with the 10 commandments.  He gazes heavenward with a puzzled expression on his face and says, "I didn't know You were a soprano!"

Don

Alysia,

In most movies, God's voice is a deep baritone.  Feminist nuns often stress feminine symbols of God in the Bible and early Christian tradition.

Don

Thank you Alysia. Reading my post back I have to apologise if it seems preaching in tone, that wasn't my intention.

'Goes pear shaped' is an English slang expression meaning I suppose you could say 'becomes screwed up' that was common usage for while years ago, it's not heard much now.

It's interesting but actually not too surprising that R and myself should turn out to be on the same side on an issue like this.

I can't help but make a huge distinction between Buddhist teaching and practice (which is right on the nail) and the complete edifice that is for example Tibetan Buddhism. By that I mean the way membership requires the adoption of a whole culture, not to mention that with the goings on in Tibet at present often a whole set of political allegiances as well.

It's probably the case that most Buddhist teachers would say that no such allegiance is required, yet that's somehow what comes across at the practical level - even if it's only from those not knowing any better. This de-facto requirement to 'align' is precisely the sort of problem I was getting at above - it goes wholly against core teaching.

I don't know exactly what's happening in Tibet, but knowing what little I know about the strategic location of the country for the great powers I have to think it very unlikely that anything we hear at all about what's going there on from any side is accurate, or is not at least being spun to suit an interest....

I apologize for the mini pamplet I've made here for R. its done to try to save myself from answering these same questions in the future. He's sharing something important to him, I'm trying to reciprocate.

R said: the World is nothing but an illusion.
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Me: The world as an illusion, I have come to terms with that our ego’s perceptions are the illusion which tries to establish that our bodies are the only true and solid reality. We have JC who demonstrated death is not real, therefore an illusion.  our misinterpretations of who and what we are allude to premises such as the world is flat, or everybody is doing it, so then somehow, we get the idea if everyone is doing it, it’s ok.

It’s an illusion because perception is not reality. The only one self concept does not necessarily negate an individual who is reaching for their unlimited self, as in expression of perfect love. thanks for the clarification. Getting beyond illusion, for me is to love god with all your heart and mind, and serve man, or serve god, but you cannot serve two masters. This pertains to romantic involvements as well in reference to love that does not “make happy.” as it’s entire premise from the start.

ACIM says being in love is to make happy, the only purpose of it. I have found this is true for me. I am happiest when I make another happy. When it sours, the real work begins that each focus in the same direction or it is bound to fail. PUL is an experiment until mastery occurs and both are whole before coming into relationship. humanity has a long ways to go, but we are getting there slowly but surely.

I’m telling u this because I promised you I would. but I don’t expect anything from you in response, it’s enough for me you showed up here. It’s just my promise I must keep. I told u I would find out if love was existent. I used you to tell my story to. You accepted me. that surprised me.
One happy person and one unhappy person in a relationship does not make the unhappy person happy. not for long. ah, learned this first hand.
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R said:  Until they get to the point where they can question their guru's infallibility, they won't be able to question his teachings.
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Me: I would assume all would be able to get to the point where questions were welcomed as a part of natural growth. a person like yourself I have a hard time seeing as a part of any group which does not allow open discussion and participation. A true guru tries to free the students from himself, rather than gain followers.
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R said: Overcoming such a limitation isn't simply a matter of seeing that one's guru is false. This is because modern day guru based cults tend to refer to the teachings of deceased Indian gurus.
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Me: I don’t see any logic here as a lot of us are reading the bible, and in that book is also deceased prophets, can be seen as gurus, the word itself is a blanket concept.
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R: False gurus don't mind doing this, because they aren't liable to lose their followers to a guru who is no longer alive.
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Me: Your guru must have drove a rolls royce. if western civilization religions worked better we wouldn’t have these guys coming over here and dipping hands into the pot. still, you lump ALL gurus into the same category, you have to go individual by individual, not thought system by thought system.
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R: Followers who get to the point where they can see that their guru is false, have a very strong tendency to continue to believe that the Indian gurus they came to know about while with a group, are infallible.
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Me: the same can be said about bible thumpers; I don’t think we are talking about Eastern versus Western anymore. this is a world wide problem.
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R: Therefore, even though they can see around their false gurus, they can't see around the false ideas they picked up.
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Me: False ideas are not only relegated to religious premises, false ideas abound in politics, hospitals, sexuality, marriages, etc etc if YOU got out, so can another, just like if JC learned perfect love, so can you. Retrievers work this area. we are to keep positive.
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R:There is a strange phenomenon that occurs within eastern teaching based groups. I had moments where I was afraid to become enlightened "right now," because I understood that enlightenment means that your existence as an individual being goes away
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Me:I understand as we already discussed this fear. U are a very creative individual, exceptionally so. It stands to reason therefore, merging into a oneness concept just doesn’t cut it for you. It is better for you to focus on PUL then, as that should be non threatening to your creativity, and as well what you have done is create more PUL in the world, so don’t worry about losing anything when its your time to go. I think I would prefer to consider PUL development as a gain rather than a loss circumstance, of the soul, in that you have used your creative resources so well, you can become an example for others, therefore you don’t need a guru and I wish in a way, you had dealt with your guru first hand.
The oneness concept means basically love makes us a cohesive force for good as a component of the family of mankind. U must carry a basic belief in the intrinsic goodness of mankind as a priority.  That would be like having a vision you carry for each and every person, whether they are wayward or straight up honest. this is how god’s impartial sun shining on the just and the unjust works...we assist each other. if another is expressing fear concepts, you transmute them into love concepts and don’t buy any fear concept as real because we are already one with god and were from the beginning of time.
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R said:
so that only the One Self that already exists remains. When I asked fellow group members if they wanted to get enlightened "right now," they always answered "yes." I found this odd, because according to the teachings if you really wanted to get enlightened "right now," you would get enlightened "right now."
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Me: I think it’s a process of observing the inner climate and that means a constant attendance to internal affairs. Becoming less afraid to speak out for myself, that means I conquer my fears and become “more” enlightened. In one sense I am always becoming more of myself by facing my fears, and this must be an inner job; no guru can do this for you, to grow your own garden of the soul. it appears you were in search mode when u joined the group. It would also appear you found yourself and could leave at that point.
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R: A part of their mind they weren't fully conscious of understood that if the teachings are true, enlightenment means waking up to the reality that no individual beings exist, just the "One Self."
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Me: Yes I understand this is what u explained previously on the board. I hope you understand now One-ness is a choice given to our free will to join or not. It’s the same on the other side. Individual expression is what makes the ELS a lively and fun place to live. It’s also that we will have leaders, and we will have followers. until that changes. One century, it’s a police state, next century it’s not needed to be policed. Oneness concept then could also be seen to be leaving judgment up to God as to whom shall lead whom, when and where and we might even switch roles from time to time. I do believe in graduation however, but it’s not the same as nirvana seekers in my mind. I don’t see enlightenment as static conditions, but movement of all life in procession.
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R: Fortunately I reached the point where I was able to question some of the concepts that eastern teachings include. Eventually I had enough experiences which enabled me to see that we do have souls that are eternal. Therefore, there was no need for me to be afraid of spiritual growth. I wouldn't have to get to the point where I would have to wish myself out of existence.
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Me: I hope not! that do sound dire, wishing oneself into nonexistence is like desiring to be desireless. From what I observe here, after awhile, having a guru was like having two cooks in the same kitchen. most difficult. I wonder if the guy was thinking, lets see, how can I get this guy out of my hair?
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R: Somehow the intelligences that are responsible for creating everything came up with a way to combine energy in a manner so that unique souls can be created.
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yup.
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R: Eastern based teachings often argue against this premise by claiming that your energy could've manifested in just about any way
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Me: thats a rumor going around about the chaos theory. it’s just a theory. doesn’t ring true, especially when you see order developing in your own life. chaos and order cannot exist together anymore than love and fear can exist together, or light fail to dispel darkness.
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R: and in order for a real "you" to exist, there needs to be something more definite.
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Me: thats so vague; something more definite explains nothing, but if someone tells me I’m not real, I know that’s a lie right off the bat and u should too.
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R: On the other hand, the experiences that happen for one person/soul aren't the same experiences that happen for another person/soul. Each person/soul has his or her unique experiences. For a while these experiences form what seems like a psychological prison
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Me: True. it would seem so, but in hindsight there is reason revealed.
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R: a soul reaches the point where it no longer is limited by what it goes through, but instead uses its fountain of experiences to its advantage
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Me: excellent way to put it. couldn’t add to that thought.
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R: This leads back to the importance of learning to live according to love completely. Love is the number one thing we want in life
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Me: right. we all want to give and to receive. no mystery on that.
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R: even when it doesn't seem that way. When we are able to live according to love completely, it no longer becomes necessary to become limited by the mental patterns we accumulated.
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Me: I’d call that a quiet mind, as well an unconflicted mind. More truth and beauty can enter a quiet mind that is not afraid to love.
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R: One thing the intelligent application of knowledge leads to is self knowledge through conjecture.
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Me: Know thyself. ah, u say you have found intelligent life in the universe?    just kidding. keep a vision.
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R: Gurus often like to say "There is nobody here, I am that."   Gurus often contend that the only thing that truly exists is pure consciousness. Pure consciousness itself can never have self knowledge, because there isn't anything within it that could do something specific.
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Me: I never had a guru as I don't trust people that easy to instruct me about me. I am also like you, I'd rather go it alone than accept false doctrine and I also gravitate towards people who are "different" from the mainstream so I can’t say all gurus are alike. blanket statements do not serve me. We could call JC a guru but wayshower seems more appropriate. it seems to me you slipped into a black hole of nothingness by trying to understand what your guru  was saying about pure consciousness. U went to the nothingness state. Then u found u had to climb out to the somethingness state. Action or objective is important to you. Subjective, or merging into god is not for you specifically as maybe you are thinking in terms that the others are into escapism. they might not see it quite the same way as you in those terms. It may just be one step of many they will take.
the trick from coming out of a hole like the nothingness hole is the other side of the coin, is now you are free to become anything you want in an objective sense because you become your own master of life and self definition and u can see there is nothing to prevent your full self expression. u might be a self determination person and have no need for a hand up in that direction and yet still practice the PUL concept.

It isn't until the creative aspect of being/mind causes something to become manifest that awareness has something to be aware of. After certain relationships are established within a person's manifested existence, he or she can use these relationships to establish that there is a being here who is conscious of what has manifested.
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Me: we’re on the same line of thought, almost like circular thinking, about the creativity powers of an individual and in relationship to others. Creativity can be seen as what is given of god to utilize. each of us has various gifts or traits that can be extended towards the creations of god, our brothers and sisters. U r expressing there is a being who is conscious of what has manifested. can’t argue with that.
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R: A being that is so undefined, just about anything can manifest.
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Me: man creates god in his own image, when it should be the other way around, god creates man in his image. yes, when the soul is free it's like being in a candy store with just a few pennies, but it's still fun.
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R: Some people might say that I contradicted myself with my last statement.
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Me: I don’t think so, but u r difficult to follow sometimes, and u say the same thing over so many times.
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R: This isn't so, when one considers that awareness and the creative aspect of being have an interdependent relationship with each other.
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Me: I think everything is interdependent on something else. its the no man is an island concept.
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R: If there wasn't anything to be aware of, there would be no point in having awareness.
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I think I’d hate living on a desert island, don’t you agree? just a lousy palm tree to be aware of. drat. who is the possessor of awareness? and is my life on loan? these are just some thoughts.
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If there was no awareness, there would be no point in having anything to be aware of.  This is true even if the only thing the creative aspect of being brings into being is love.
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well, to me there is nothing but love that is real and that comes through relationship with other than self. If I wasn't aware that I was me, I don't know who would be aware I was here? lol!!!!
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My feeling is that in order for oneness to be known, there needs to be many parts of this oneness that share it.
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sharing is another word for PUL.I don’t think we’re saying anything here that hasn’t been said down thru the ages in various ways.
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Regarding the pros and cons of getting involved with the groups of false gurus, it is hard to make generalizations. Not all false gurus are alike.
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neither are all true gurus alike, or I would surely be looking at a cloned civilization. Did u see Stepford Wives? I think my first husband wanted one of those...ah...
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Some are worse than others. Some can cause their followers to have really difficult experiences. One of my main concerns is what happens to a person who doesn't get to the point where he or she can see that they do have an eternal soul
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Me: I think god has the problem under control R, also u r helping us here on the board. a lot of folks come here to read.
the ones that need your particular insight will unfailingly be put in your path. all suffering and difficulties will eventually have a positive outcome.
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R: because they don't get to the point where they can or will question the teachings of gurus who speak against the reality of everlasting souls?
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Me: What is your solution? ask your guides, I’m sure theres no silly question that cannot have an answer. It’s just how fast do you want it answered? and do u have patience to recieve the answer? you already know the answer. u take care of yours that are sent to you. Each of us has a piece of the action.
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R: Perhaps for some their life plan doesn't require that they do so.
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Me:  I believe we are always given another opportunity if we miss the first opportunity to make the right choices in life which contribute to the highest good of all, which means extend good will, and don’t lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, force your will on another, and then you are one of the possible graduates to peace of mind and service to humanity within PUL. no need to make it complicated, having a good and full life.
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R: If a person plays the role of being an all knowing master without actually being one, there is bound to be some negative results
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Me:  u seem to think you alone must atone for the negative results, do you think you are responsible? Surely god is here among us. Have some faith.  If you are this bothered by some guru, you are carrying some anger you don’t need to carry, it has imprisoned you, and you feel a need to suffer for the sake of others. If you trust in guidance, you will know that you will be a more effective, creative person to allow yourself to listen to guidance, what to do, what is your responsibility and what is not or get some certainty that god is a Just god and the universe is an orderly thing, that he has his eye on the sparrow. If you have seen god working in your own life, you can also be assured god is working in all others lives the same, and you can also keep this vision for others because keeping a vision is a thought of love, and that is always helping to think on PUL. it extends the kingdom. U r the messenger, not the enforcer of change
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R: I have no problem with learning and being inspired by others, but often people go too far. It is better they find out for themselves, rather than becoming overly dependent on the words of others.
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Me:.Your the messenger. not the book burner. and I like your messages. theres more to distract us from truth here than the reading of words of others, which I’m assuming you mean books.
guidance operates for the individual insofar as reading material. we don’t need to play god and think that god is having a favorite and that the whole world is deluded, as surely it can’t be us that would be with false perception? we all at times are perceiving falsely. We have given ourselves time to heal the separation with PUL.
concentrate on what PUL is, is to allow god to speak to you how to treat his children with the same PUL as you feel inside, which means you’re going to have to trust that none of us are alone and friendless.
thanks for showing me your thoughts. it was kind of you. I hope that my answers are sufficient so we can put these questions aside for you. I don’t mind saying I’ve been at this several days because I care about you also. you must think I am special and have something you want. I doubt that I do. I am surely not the guru type nor am I a sheep type. I love people, but it was a learned action and a choice and just a law that works, that if I give myself to others, as best as I know, they return that love. love makes happy. there is no secret that I know of to share so u can stop asking me. the law of life abundant has been around as a law for centuries. Gratitude is a feature of PUL expressing. I have wanted to share my gratitude for your work for a long time. It helped me then and now. that was my purpose for asking you to find me.
It has been fullfilled. love to you! I’ll see you on the other side most likely and give you a kiss. I’ll have you know I missed Karaoke tonite on account of you; don’t u feel bad? just kidding. but you are important to answer. take care. Sorry if I’m make you dissatisfied. I’m just me. love, alysia

That's a Buddhist view too Alan - the world is argued as being real, but not real. Real in that you can't ignore its influence on you, but illusory inasmuch as it's a creation of mind, relative and impermanent. At one level that's tough to swallow, but at another it's a bit shocking the way the associated maxim 'mind creates' shows it self to be apparently true at more trivial levels in our lives if we truly care to look - especially as we've discussed before in the way we tend to draw what we fear or what we pour a lot of energy in into our lives.

On Tibetan culture Alysia. Think I expressed it unclearly. What I was getting at is that around the Western Tibetan Buddhist groups I've had contact with (one over quite a few years, and two others peripherally) there's a to my mind a tendency to view stuff Tibetan uncritically.

So for example there's e-mails flying asking people to sign petitions and  so on regarding the current political situation in Tibet, but little sign of any debate on the topic. There's likewise a tendency to paint what was a tough feudal culture ruled by the monastics for centuries and the historical figures involved as paragons of virtue when this may or may not have been the case. There's likewise this tendency to presume that if a teacher wears maroon robes that they must be a holy dude and worthy of unquestioning acceptance.

Buddhism works with archetypical aspects of mind which must by definition be universal, meaning that they must be capable of expression in the local lingo. Yet the imagery and language  used in even the larger and longest established Western based groups remains resolutely Tibetan, eastern and displays the anthromorphic expression typical of  older pre-scientific cultures  - it's full of various Tibetan gods, demons and so on which generally are not of the same name or may not even exist in other Buddhist traditions.

Now none of this is a show stopper in itself, much of it is inevitable in the early stages of the transmission of a tradition from one culture to another, getting hung up on external presentation is not wise, the core teachings seem 100% trustworthy and Tibetan teachers seem generally to be lovely people. Not to mention that the above seems to reflect more the attitude of Western memberships to the tradition than that of the the teachers themselves - Chogyam Trungpa for example made a big effort to strip the cultural baggage away from what he taught.

But it's nevertheless possible to ask some hard questions as to just why 40 years and more  after arriving in the West there's been so little change...