Wonderful paragraph Kathy. 

[quote author=Lights of Love link=1204905154/15#27 date=1205466887]
Probably one of the best examples of spiritual experience where I can relate to “wholly other” and reverential awe is when I’m close enough to a light being to feel their radiance of unbelievable love. The being is “wholly other” or “not me” when I’m close to it, so I know it is “wholly other” yet it can completely surround and absorb me and then I am it and still me all at the same time. When I’m not within this light being, everything in me wants to be. Right now as I write this and remember what this is like, there is nothing that I desire more than to be in this light. It is an incredible draw or desire to be in the light. But I’m here and I’m supposed to be here otherwise I would be there. lol

Continuing with what Don, Ultra, Matthew and others wrote:

I figure there was a time where God (my name for source being) existed all by God's self. God used his entire being or much of it, to figure out what the creative aspect of his being is about. Once he figured it out, he used numerous parts of his "own" being to create everybody else.

When it comes to which portion of God continued to play the role of God's lead consciousness, and which parts became all of us, it was probably an arbitrary thing, because at the beginning, all of God's being understood what it understood before God started creating the rest of us and resultantly allowed parts of himself to get lost for a while.

When each of us rejoin the Godhead we probably have access to all knowledge just as the part of God that never lost track of its self, since after all, all of us come from the same place.  When it comes to what our basic nature is, each of is basically the same.

Perhaps the human body can be used as an anology.  The human body is God, the body's brain is the portion God thinks with, the body's nervous system is the holy spirit that connects God's mind to the rest of his body, the cells that make up the rest of the body are us, and eventually each cell develops so it can understand the entire body. Of course, each cell needs to be willing to see beyond its limited "assumed" role in order to do so.

welcome back Nanner. reading you is like sipping strong coffee in the morning. gets me stimulated dearie.

Alan your question boils down to one often asked whether the egg or the chicken came first. Nobody can really answer that question sufficiently to satisfy another. maybe there's a clue if we ask why we even bother to try to answer it, and why we all come here to talk together. communication can turn into communion, if we are all one with god, then we are all one with each other, it's more scientific? if we can say, no matter whats coming down, we effect each other's well being or we create mayhem on one another with false premises expressed without love.

I'll just leave off on the question with that we study alot right here on this site what is a thing called perception versus knowledge.
perception is just perception. we perceive something. but do we perceive it correctly and do we perceive the whole of it? We cannot perceive the whole of it if we are just a part of it. so then we make that ok with ourselves, like Nan says god is putting on an act. that other person over there who gives you trouble, they are also YOU. you can never get rid of these other you's. but by not resisting what is perceived as evil, that same perceived evil becomes transformed by the PUL in you. this is what I mean by extension of your true knowledge from your personal, nonsharable experiences with other dimensions of consciousness, such as retrievals, transcendent meditations, prayer, etc.

Knowledge would be related to gaining of experience within Earth physical realm and imparting that  to others. Like those who have NDE, come back and report the experience that they PERCEIVED as best they can. They only way to keep something, in other words is by giving it away.

yet what they perceived was far grander than they can express with mere language and this is their cross to bear and I suppose the reward is in the effort to share their knowledge because by passing it on the kingdom come idea is increased in our oneness. this has to do with PUL, not with the self serving ego which has no Oneness premise.

I know some of your experiences Alan, you want to pass on, but it's very difficult isn't it? thats ok, I think you do ok, I knew from the start what your good intentions were here, I caught a glimpse here and there, that you had had some doozies out there that you'd like to pass on.

haha! physics. lemmee see if I was Einstein my brain would be totally fried. heres a formula:
0 + 1 idea = one.     1 + 1 idea shared = 2   2+2 ideas shared = 4  and so on and etc.

and do we need to know where the sun came from in order to enjoy the warmth of it? Nanner, it's raining here. yesterday the wind was blowing fiercely. the day before was just enough sun, not too hot, not too cold. I thought I had died and gone to heaven all the day. In the summer here, it's usually even as hot as 120.  all this weather conditions makes us enjoy when we do get a day that's just right. actually the sound of the rain is enjoyable too.
then, lol, when it's raining we can come here and make dumb remarks to each other all the day long!

Rereading Kathy's NDE account with Mellen-Thomas about God becoming us instead of us becoming God. I could think of something else along those lines...maybe...if I try.

It reminds me of this little icon I have of JC knocking at a door. God cannot come in unless we open the door, and that has to do with free will and our individual focus. I think it has to do with purification which has to do with the way we hoard good will and support evil by believing in evil as real.

I still rely on some thought that when I came to Earth I looked around and everyone wanted to be a movie star on stage. the field was overrun with would-be stars who ended up pumping gas or slinging hash on their way to stardom. The world is a stage and we be but actors and actresses. I decided not to be an actress but to be the best darn hash slinger in the diner because of the serenity prayer, always give thanks for your job however small it is and do it perfectly because somebody has to feed the aspiring stars too. Through PUL practice  the forces of god called grace and the way is made smoother by degree of perception. Love is the closest thing to God we can perceive, undistorted by self serving ego. In our oneness we can be set free in our spirits.

omygod I think I just laid a Sunday sermon on you guys!    blow me down, thanks for puttin up with me!

I always sign off with love. One time George here, bless his heart said "I like the way alysia signs off with love." then recently, I get this more often "I wouldn't sign off with love, because I don't feel it, so it's a fake thing to sign off with.

Let me set the record straight I FEEL IT! Otherwise I wouldn't sign off with love either. You don't have to be like me..y'all just have to let me sign off the way I want to, with my feelings.

so there    with love, your pal, alysia

DocM wrote on Mar 14^th, 2008 at 2:59pm:


Hi Matthew,

Thank you for the kind words.
Following up - -
My understanding of this issue is as follows:
First of all - these are terms that signify constructs and belief systems that may all be operable depending upon whether one adopts any one and they do all seem to co-exist on the Earth-plane in various cultures and societies as individual and group beliefs at the present time - maybe one of the primary sources of ideological 'conflict', as people migrate from more restrictive constructs to more expansive constructs.

Dualism: that God (Spirit) and the Creation (matter) are separate and inaccessible to each other. Basically, God created the universe and 'let it go'. This is supposedly a primitive construct and not utilized by most of the so-called 'civilised' world.

Qualified Non-Dualism: God created the universe not of His entire Being, but with a portion of His Essence which permeates the Creation and is part of it. However there are limitations to 'access'. Right now, this is the dominant conception for most of the world - (like 90%?), but it is fast changing.

Monism: Everything, whether physical or non-physical is God in some form. There is nothing anywhere in any form that is not God. Any aspect of individuated form (in the physical) is actually God and has therefore the potential to become conscious of this Reality by evolution and transformation of this transitory ignorance.

We can accept qualified non-dualism (and definitely monism) if we acknowledge that individuals like Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Ramakrishna, etc., were God-realized and still retained their individuality (seems they did) , while operating in the physical world and not simply as part of an NDE, etc. Further, if one accepts the possibility and/or reality of God-realization presumably exemplified by these historical figures and probably many unknown others, this creates a problem for the purely dualist conception which posits that God (Spirit) is necessarily separate from a material Creation.

In qualified non-dualism God is seen as creating a separate physical universe with His Essence, but it is a one way street and still separate from access (to God). In both strict dualism and qualified non-dualism there is separation that is only resolved with the dissolution of life whether as parmeceum, person, or planet - and return of the soul - the divine portion to the Source through death. Iow's - dualism is resolved through death (one belief system that has generated many 'problems' on Earth)  Neither of the dualist conceptions allow for the phenomenon of God-realization except in q.n.d. in which case is explained as a fiat appearance by one way descent  into the physical world ie: Avatars (Incarnations) - direct descent of Godhead into physical personality. It does not allow for the construct that a 'mortal' person could attain God-realization working from the physical, since there would be the intrinsic separation of the dualistic reality, only resolvable by death and subsequent return to Source through process of death. The soul is merely our 'conscience' in a 'moral' world and that is as far as it goes. Hence the problem many have with the possibility of God-realization as well aas many other problems originating in this structure/belief system.

Yet, stange that all the Great Teachers have carefully explained that God can be attained by the individual through various means and methods while in this life (although even now this is still seen as radical by most), seeming to suggest that the dualist model persists only though stubborn adherence to ignorant tradition which keeps human beings indefinitely enslaved to Ignorance in a spiritual/material schism that is the source of many problems within individual and institutional belief systems at this time in human evolution. Iow's - it seems to me that monism is at the cutting edge of human understanding and implimentation of Divinity. It offers the most common sense view that explains most comprehensively the whys and hows of the human predicament and offers the best possibilities of transcending it, which the other models do not.

Consciousness at 'the high end' has been described as Existence/Consciousness/Bliss, in which there is no differentiation between those qualities and the one experiencing them. This does not necessarily mean that an individual cannot participate in that 'scheme' (which is a baseless 'fear' of the dualist/materialist conception), and is again, what is described by those who have experienced these states as differentiated human personalities Who did retain their individuality and operated on Earth as such.

You bring up an interesting point in discussing the narcissim issue on the individual level which i wasn't even alluding to. But yes, it seems clear that opposite to the dualist conception, monism (oneness) supports service within the Creation without the rationales we see with dualism that cause so many difficult secondary problems - for instance like inquisitions, crusades, and separative, condescending, authoritarian attitudes that are inherent in the constructs themselves. The dualist conception willfully or incidentally promotes a materialst view (matter being un or antidivine) in which any actual becoming of divinity (vs submission to divinity ie external Authority), is given as impossible therefore any real occurance of this is seen as an absurdity, narcissism, erroneous self (small 's') worship, megalomania, and various irreligious distortions - the same things the Pharisees said about the Christ. Even short of a discussion on the divinity of the Christ etc, there are all kinds of individual, social and cultural problems that stem from the spiritual/material dualistic conception of reality and transposition onto the social/interpersonal level, like the obvious shortcomings of morality and why that debate will go nowhere - because it has reached its limits on a social level in terms of the sheer number of people it does not now serve positively.

What I was previously refering to was this:
On a larger scale, what better model of narcissism than dualism? - An Almighty, Infinite, All Knowing, All loving God somehow can't get it together, and projects an ineffectual false-self (Creation) in which Ignorance, futility and finitude abound, creatures callously destroy and consume each other merely to survive another day, everything that is born has to die including the Universe itself, and for humans - the perplexing 'bad things happen to good people" among much worse - confusing and debilitating brutality, turmoil, and suffering that does not seem to live up to all the confabulated grandiose hype we hear about the great wonderful God. Talk about a grandiosity gap - narcissism or what?

It is in monism where all of this physical plane ignorance makes sense and actually has some meaning within larger possibilities inherent in the scheme, at least as a remedial basis for 'return' in which there is the 'double ladder' of involution/evolution which cannot be true in the dualist (separated) conception where the greatest possibilities of life are available only through divine fiat and not inherent in the reality itself as is the case with monism. Monism is where human birth has the greatest potential since human beings are inherently self-conscious, and so God-realization is at the forefront of physical plane possibility. In this scheme the individual does not narcisissitically worship themselves (their outer form) but they aspire to the divinity within themselves and respond to the inherent divinity in others - which supersedes an externally applied (therefore arbitrary) morality as a determinant of 'goodness' on the physical plane. It is subsumed by and adherance to or an aspiration and willingness to surrender the small will (ego) to God's Will, present and available within each person. It is with dualism that we see the culture of narcisism and form/image worship, condescending and authoritarian power trips over other beings and societies, etc..

- u

Well now, I’m glad to see all of you have kept this thread going.

Hi Alan,

Yes, I do enjoy your writings. They can initiate in me the desire to wander off into meditative/contemplative thought. I’m not sure that I understand the idea of out of chaos comes order although it might seem so, however I do agree that there is divine order even when this is not recognized. You also have an interesting question… “Why is there something instead of nothing?” I suppose that one could say the only “something” that is absolute is consciousness and everything else is relevant only to consciousness in an outgoing and feedback process on both an individual and collective basis.

Hi Albert,

I love what you say here.

Quote:


I think the first step for this to happen is for each of us to let down the wall or the barriers we’ve created by allowing our self-awareness or identity to become separated from the spiritual wisdom within. We lost our spiritual identity to love because of our creation of fear. Out of fear and ignorance we tried to right ourselves with the creation of our ego identity to form, which of course created further separation that led to greater fearful thoughts and beliefs.

The creation of our ego is like a defense system ready and waiting to cover up our original pain caused from the betrayal of our true self, which instinctively knows the goodness within because our true self is the “image” of God, our source and ground of being. The separated ego awareness believes it must prove itself to be good and worthy because it has forgotten that it already is goodness and life itself.

Hi Alysia,

When we allow our understanding of the purest, highest love that we know to freely flow and emanate out from us… we are healing to those near to us. Healing energy flows automatically from the divinity within each of us when we are in this state of being. I like the way you say this…

Quote:


Hi Nanner,

You are welcome for the link.  
Yes I agree there is something in us that knows we are so much more than what appears on the surface.

Hi Ultra and Matthew,

Ultra, I like this summary:

Quote:


I’d like to hear more from you, too, Matthew.  

Hmmm… Don seems to be MIA. I wonder if he has conceded to monism?  

Sorry Don… just missing you.  

Love you all!
Kathy