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spooky2

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Re: Question
Reply #15 - Feb 26^th, 2008 at 11:34pm

I'd like to sort of continue recoverer's post. In his book "Voyage To Curiosity's Father" (I think it was this one) Bruce describes the annihilation as a process of ceasing and finally decaying, he tells of beings in the core, or being the core of hells. Such beings have almost lost what we call personality and have become something like a negative functional process which is on the one hand very powerful (one-dimensional-effective) on the other hand very fragile as there is not much of a soul left which is needed to form something we call "entity", "person". This goes so far that this being isn't able to receive support and nutrition of it's root, it's higher self, it's home, it's basis of existence, and when this is the case, it will fall apart, just like physical death. It's experiences it had until it's break-off from it's home might be retrieved though.

Spooky

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Justin aka asltaomr Ex Member	Re: Question Reply #16 - Feb 26^th, 2008 at 11:36pm Very, very good explanation Spooky.
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betson Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 3445 SE USA Gender:	Re: Question Reply #17 - Feb 26^th, 2008 at 11:39pm Spooky and All, Do you mean that the Group-soul, the Disk-soul, would still have access to those experiences of the deleted soul's? Isshh! Why would they want them ? Bets
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Alan McDougall

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Re: Question
Reply #18 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 9:27am

Don Your Quote
Quote:

Actually, Paul is more authoritative than Jesus because the earthly Jesus assumed our human limitations in power and knowledge, but Jesus was restored to full divinity by His resurrection and exaltation and the Risen Jesus authorized Paul to preach His updated Gospel that takes the redeeming significance of His death and resurrection into account (see e. g. Acts 9; Galatians 1:11-15). I thought you respected revelations from Jesus during NDEs. During atheist Howard Storm's NDE, Jesus instructs him that some souls are annihilated and this fits what the Gospels imply about Jseus' teaching

Don,

The best kindest comment I can make about you demoting the divine Lord Jesus below the very fallible Paul is abject nonsense.

Did Paul walk on water, die and raze himself again to life, feed thousands from a few fish and loafs, go down in history as the greatest most influential person to walk the face of the earth, bring back to life a man stinking dead for four days, have direct access to God (accept when dying on the cross), to die resurrect and walk the earth for forty years after coming back from the dead, born of a virgin by the Spirit of God, 0vecame the terrible bane and torment death 1corr;15, Healed everyone of every ailment disease that came to him without exception, knew the future, knew what people were thinking even if they were remote from him (Nathanial),. His name was Immanuel, meaning “God with us” Paul means by contrast from the Latin paulus “small” IS THE TRUTH THE LIFE AND THE WAY, to GOD

Dear Paul bless him mortal fallible and sometime doubting irritable soul had non of these god qualities, was simply an self designated apostle and as one Christian to another what you propose is tantamount to blaspheming as we Christians believe Jesus is God, Paul was a man and to equate them in some way is convoluted abject nonsense.

Why do I respond in this manner, because you are like a man tossed in the tide, flouting biblical scipture and subjective near death experiences. as impossiblity in my mind. One or the other

JESUS NEVER SPOKE TO ME IN MY NDE ONLY A BEING OF LIGHT, WHOEVER IT WAS

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Do Quote:

n-

The problem is largely generational.

We older folks have been around long enough to know that we don't know.

We have questions, they have answers. A never-ending cycle

.

Exacly and nicely put my dear

alan

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Alan McDougall

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blink

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Re: Question
Reply #19 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 1:05pm

Who are any of us to question whether an "entity" or a "personality" of any kind should exist or not? If I were stuck in such a state I would hope that someone would come along again and again and never give up. I would never want someone's connection to the light to be severed because it made me "uncomfortable" that they would not join me in my love-fest. For all I know, this entity, or any entity, might be repelled by or appalled by the love-fest for many reasons. If this entity has turned me down a billion times, maybe I might return one more time, who knows? It seems to me that God has infinite patience, if God exists. The love-fest goes on forever, so who's in a hurry, anyway? Of course, if the entity begged me to annihilate "it" then I would consider it, if I were "God" for a very very very....long time. Oh, but I forgot, time doesn't exist there.

recoverer wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 8:27pm:

During my night in heaven experience the subject of hell like realms didn't come up, but I definitely had the understanding that everything works out perfectly. This being the case, and considering some other experiences, it is hard to imagine beings in a heavenly realm feeling as if everything is perfect, if they are aware of beings who exist in a hellish state for all of eternity.

Therefore, it seems most reasonable to me that beings who just won't move on to the light and abide in a dark state, will lose their connection to the light.

If I was stuck in such a state, I would hope that somebody would have mercy on me and allow my existence to whither away. What is the point of existing if you live according to negative attributes such as hate, anger, fear, ill will and irreverence; rather than attributes such as happiness, peace, knowledge and love?

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Berserk2

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Re: Question
Reply #20 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 1:28pm

Alan,

Apparently you don't know the original biblical languages and haven't read my posts carefully.
Here are the four key points you overlook:

(1) Jesus and Paul agree on the possibililty of soul annihilation, a possibility reinforced by "Jesus and the angels" during atheist Howard Storm's NDE. Is yours the only NDE with valid insights? Bruce Moen's astral explorations point to the same conclusion.

(2) You seem to place more stock in our Gospels' witness than in Paul's. You overlook the fact that Paul is the only eyewitness to Christ's resurrection who actually writes about it. (1 Corinthians 9:1; 15:3-8; Galatians 1:11-16). Modern biblical scholarship has established that neither Matthew nor John wrote the Gospels that bear their name. If you can't trust Paul's witness to Jesus' resurrection, there is even less reason to trust the Gospel witness!

(3) True, Jesus was able to perform amazing miracles AFTER He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. But you seem to be unaware of the many Gospel reports of Jseus' limitations in power and knowledge. These limitations were removed by Jesus' resurrection and exaltation. So what the risen Jesus teaches is at least as important as what the historical Jesus taught.

(4) You underestimate Paul's unique gifts from God. Paul too performed "miraculous signs and wonders (Acts 15:12)." For example, he healed a cripple (Acts 14:8-10) and performed exorcisms (16:16-18; 19:12), and was delivered from the Philippian jail with the aid of a faith-induced earthquake (16:25-26). So great was Paul's healing gift that miracles were produced merely by his physical contract with "handkerchiefs and aprons" that were then brought to the sick (19:11-12). Paul even raised the dead (20:9-10). Luke, the author of Acts, was Paul's travel companion and fellow missionary.

Don

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recoverer

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Re: Question
Reply #21 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 1:46pm

Don said: "Actually, Paul is more authoritative than Jesus because the earthly Jesus assumed our human limitations in power and knowledge, but Jesus was restored to full divinity by His resurrection and exaltation and the Risen Jesus authorized Paul to preach His updated Gospel that takes the redeeming significance of His death and resurrection into account (see e. g. Acts 9; Galatians 1:11-15). "

Don:

I can't say I agree with the above. I speak from the viewpoint of what it is like to receive spirit guidance from a higher level being. Doing so serves the purpose of getting me to the point where I overcome my limitations and live completely according to love. This help has included extensive energetic work that enables me to make contact with levels of existence that aren't ordinarily contacted.

Unlike me, I figure Jesus completed the process. Therefore, he had access to universal mind and resultantly spoke according to divine wisdom, rather than according to his interpretations of what truth is. He did not have to be crucified before he overcame the flesh, lived completely according to love, and had access to divine knowledge.

If Paul did the same thing, I don't see how his knowledge could be superior to Jesus' knowledge. Divine knowledge unfettered by personal opinions is divine knowledge unfettered by personal opinions, regardless of who has access to such knowledge.

When I consider that Paul said that women should be subversive to men because Adam was created first, and after all, Eve ate the apple, I doubt that he was a man of perfect knowledge. I also doubt that Jesus viewed women in such a way.

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Berserk2

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Re: Question
Reply #22 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 3:32pm

[Albert:] "Unlike me, I figure Jesus completed the process. Therefore, he had access to universal mind and resultantly spoke according to divine wisdom, rather than according to his interpretations of what truth is. He did not have to be crucified before he overcame the flesh, lived completely according to love, and had access to divine knowledge."
________________________________________________________________
I am a Christian who reveres Jesus as God incarnate. But the Gospels and Hebrews repeatedly stress various ways in which the historical Jesus was limited in both His power and His knowledge. To become human He "emptied Himself" of His divine prerogatives, and hence, needed to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism before embarking on His healing ministry. He apparently performed no miracles prior to this time. So His home town scoffs at reports of His subsequent miracles. Jesus' limitations are removed by His resurrection and exaltation. And Paul encounters the risen Jesus and receives His message from Him.

[Albert:] "If Paul did the same thing, I don't see how his knowledge could be superior to Jesus' knowledge. Divine knowledge unfettered by personal opinions is divine knowledge unfettered by personal opinions, regardless of who has access to such knowledge."
________________________________________________________________

Paul's Gospel was entrusted to him in a direct encounter with the risen Jesus. The New Testament Gospel accounts of the resurrection are not written up by the eyewitnesses; they are mediated to the writers by the eyewitnesses of the earthly Jesus. Paul's teaching has been repeatedly checked out by the eyewitnesses during his visits to Jerusalem and his other encounters with the apostles on the mission field. Indeed, Paul writes his epistles 15-20 years before our first written Gospel. There is no contradiction between Paul and the historical Jesus.

[Albert:] "When I consider that Paul said that women should be subversive to men because Adam was created first, and after all, Eve ate the apple, I doubt that he was a man of perfect knowledge. I also doubt that Jesus viewed women in such a way. "
___________________________________________________________

You are confusing 1 Timothy 2:9-15 with the authentic Paul. 1 Timothy is written by someone from one of Paul's churches after his death. The suppression of female leadership in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is, for 5 reasons, a later interpolation in Paul's epistles. Paul never blames Eve for the Fall. In fact, Paul champions a leadership role for women even more than Jesus does. Romans 16 is a celebration of female leaders in the early church, including Priscilla, the woman who seems to have founded the church at Rome! If you wish, I can expand on all this in great detail.

As I have argued, Jesus and Paul both seem to embrace the possiblity of soul annihilation, as does the Jesus who instructs Howard Storm during his NDE.

Don

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recoverer

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Re: Question
Reply #23 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 4:10pm

Don said: "I am a Christian who reveres Jesus as God incarnate. But the Gospels and Hebrews repeatedly stress various ways in which the historical Jesus was limited in both His power and His knowledge. To become human He "emptied Himself" of His divine prerogatives, and hence, needed to receive the Holy Spirit at His baptism before embarking on His healing ministry. He apparently performed no miracles prior to this time. So His home town scoffs at reports of His subsequent miracles. Jesus' limitations are removed by His resurrection and exaltation. And Paul encounters the risen Jesus and receives His message from Him."

I figure that Jesus had to overcome his humaness. No easy task, which I figure takes more than one baptism. Perhaps Jesus' baptism was the start, but not the end of the growth process he went through. I believe it is a mistake to give too much credit to our physical bodies when it comes to how we are limited. I believe it is more of a matter of our "non-physical bodies" intentionally being limited so we can make use of our experience in the physical World. Specific types of energetic work has to be gone through in order to overcome these limitations. The isolation from spirit realms incarnating into a body leads to, causes us to get involved with limiting belief systems and the resulting limited way of experiencing life. If we overcome such mental barriers, even while occupying a physical body, we can obtain access to divine mind. I figure this is what Jesus did before he was crucified. I also believe it is possible that things expaned for him even more, when he was resurrected.

Don said: "If you wish, I can expand on all this in great detail."

If you are able to find the time. I recently started to read the chapters that follow the gospels again. I haven't read them multiple times, and figure I would pick up something new if I read them again. I sort of skipped ahead and read "James" first, because I received a spirit message to do so. It seems to me that James is a chapter that people don't speak about a lot, but has a clear message.

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recoverer

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Re: Question
Reply #24 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 4:22pm

Blink:

Would you want to exist for all of eternity as being who lives according to hate, anger, ill will towards others, and other negative traits, or would you hope that something would take place that caused your existence to come to an end?

It would be nice if every single being gets saved, but the Biblical verses Don knows about and Bruce Moen's experience suggest differently. There is a section in Bruce's book Voyage to curiosity's father, where he explains in a very rational way how a soul can get to the point where no matter how others try to help it, it just can't open up to love.

This is horrible, but perhaps there is no other way for us to truly have free will. If you consider this issue from the perspective of the creative aspect of being, how could it function if it didn't have the ability to express itself in varying ways?

Quote:

Who are any of us to question whether an "entity" or a "personality" of any kind should exist or not? If I were stuck in such a state I would hope that someone would come along again and again and never give up. I would never want someone's connection to the light to be severed because it made me "uncomfortable" that they would not join me in my love-fest. For all I know, this entity, or any entity, might be repelled by or appalled by the love-fest for many reasons. If this entity has turned me down a billion times, maybe I might return one more time, who knows? It seems to me that God has infinite patience, if God exists. The love-fest goes on forever, so who's in a hurry, anyway? Of course, if the entity begged me to annihilate "it" then I would consider it, if I were "God" for a very very very....long time. Oh, but I forgot, time doesn't exist there.

recoverer wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 8:27pm:

During my night in heaven experience the subject of hell like realms didn't come up, but I definitely had the understanding that everything works out perfectly. This being the case, and considering some other experiences, it is hard to imagine beings in a heavenly realm feeling as if everything is perfect, if they are aware of beings who exist in a hellish state for all of eternity.

Therefore, it seems most reasonable to me that beings who just won't move on to the light and abide in a dark state, will lose their connection to the light.

If I was stuck in such a state, I would hope that somebody would have mercy on me and allow my existence to whither away. What is the point of existing if you live according to negative attributes such as hate, anger, fear, ill will and irreverence; rather than attributes such as happiness, peace, knowledge and love?

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Justin aka asltaomr

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Re: Question
Reply #25 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 5:11pm

recoverer wrote on Feb 27^th, 2008 at 4:10pm:

I figure that Jesus had to overcome his humaness. No easy task, which I figure takes more than one baptism. Perhaps Jesus' baptism was the start, but not the end of the growth process he went through. I believe it is a mistake to give too much credit to our physical bodies when it comes to how we are limited. I believe it is more of a matter of our "non-physical bodies" intentionally being limited so we can make use of our experience in the physical World. Specific types of energetic work has to be gone through in order to overcome these limitations. The isolation from spirit realms incarnating into a body leads to, causes us to get involved with limiting belief systems and the resulting limited way of experiencing life. If we overcome such mental barriers, even while occupying a physical body, we can obtain access to divine mind. I figure this is what Jesus did before he was crucified. I also believe it is possible that things expaned for him even more, when he was resurrected.

I pretty much completely agree, but would also mention that it seems like its also a balancing process between the physical body, the mind, and the spiritual aspects.

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Justin aka asltaomr

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Re: Question
Reply #26 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 5:23pm

Something important to remember in all of this talk of Soul death , is that at least from Bruce's perspective, it's not an outside consciousness or entity that decides this for that personality, it's the Disc self of which that personality is connected to which along with the natural progression that Spooky talks about, who is the final decider in all this.

So, it's like you, the wiser you, deciding that a part of you just can't go on any longer the way it is and so that wiser you let's go of the consciousness connections to that particular aspect.

I would imagine the memories of that self are still retained in some way, and so there is growth even out of death.

As Bruce portrays it, this is not an easy decision to make, even for a non emotionally centered Disk Self.

As humans centered in an emotional experience, and some humans more so than others, such a concept sounds so horrible to even want to consider, it sounds so inhumane at first, but i believe Albert brings up some good points regarding this. Maybe it is more loving and kinder to end that self's conscious awareness since all it is experiencing is suffering and more suffering, as well as holding back the greater Disk self.

I seem to remember Bruce saying that this tends to happen when an entire Disk is ready to wink out , graduate, and phase out of this Universe so that it can become a Co-Creator of others.

We have 3 good sources which talk about this, the Biblical, Bruce's info, and Cayce's info all essentially agree on this. I haven't read Storms book, so i can't comment on it.

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ian

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Re: Question
Reply #27 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 8:06pm

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 2:25am:

Ian and Griffin,

Welcome to the board. Here contrasting opinions and experiences are welcome. However, simple dogmatic assertions contribute nothing to discussions unless they are backed up by some sort of justification or illustrated by your experiences. We really want to know why you feel the way you do and/ or how your views have been shaped by your experiences.

Don

i am told that the soul is energy and cannot be destroyed
"you cannot die for the life of you" scottish medium gordon smith.
even evil monsters get another chance in time. i believe there
maybe a deep sleep for the hopeless souls?

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recoverer

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Re: Question
Reply #28 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 8:56pm

I have a Gordon Smith book, and I could tell that some of what he says is based on book knowledge.

If you compared what the famous mediums believe, you would see that they disagree with each other at times.

ian wrote on Feb 27^th, 2008 at 8:06pm:

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 26^th, 2008 at 2:25am:

Ian and Griffin,

Welcome to the board. Here contrasting opinions and experiences are welcome. However, simple dogmatic assertions contribute nothing to discussions unless they are backed up by some sort of justification or illustrated by your experiences. We really want to know why you feel the way you do and/ or how your views have been shaped by your experiences.

Don

i am told that the soul is energy and cannot be destroyed
"you cannot die for the life of you" scottish medium gordon smith.
even evil monsters get another chance in time. i believe there
maybe a deep sleep for the hopeless souls?

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Alan McDougall

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Re: Question
Reply #29 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 11:40pm

Don,

Again, your logic is convoluted, you claim the supposed authors did not write the gospels and this might be the case as they with the exception of Matthew uneducated. Therefore, someone possibly wrote them in proxy for them. But hek! "We have the same problem with Paul there in even less historical evidence for his existence than that of Jesus" (Josephes)

To claim from thousands of miles away that I do not have knowledge like you do of the original languages of the scriptures is preposterous

Re 20:10 kai; oJ diavboloß oJ planw'n aujtou;ß ejblhvqh eijß th;n livmnhn tou' puro;ß kai; qeivou, o&pou kai; to; qhrivon kai; oJ yeudoprofhvthß, kai; basanisqhvsontai hJmevraß kai; nukto;ß eijß tou;ß aijw'naß tw'n aijwvnwn.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Re 20:11 Kai; ei\don qrovnon mevgan leuko;n kai; to;n kaqhvmenon ejpj aujtovn, ouJ' ajpo; tou' proswvpou e~fugen hJ gh' kai; oJ oujranovß, kai; tovpoß oujc euJrevqh aujtoi'ß.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Re 20:12 kai; ei\don tou;ß nekrouvß, tou;ß megavlouß kai; tou;ß mikrouvß, eJstw'taß ejnwvpion tou' qrovnou, kai; bibliva hjnoivcqhsan: kai; a~llo biblivon hjnoivcqh, o& ejstin th'ß zwh'ß: kai; ejkrivqhsan oiJ nekroi; ejk tw'n gegrammevnwn ejn toi'ß biblivoiß kata; ta; e~rga aujtw'n.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Re 20:13 kai; e~dwken hJ qavlassa tou;ß nekrou;ß tou;ß ejn aujth'/, kai; oJ qavnatoß kai; oJ a&/dhß e~dwkan tou;ß nekrou;ß tou;ß ejn aujtoi'ß, kai; ejkrivqhsan e&kastoß kata; ta; e~rga aujtw'n.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Re 20:14 kai; oJ qavnatoß kai; oJ a&/dhß ejblhvqhsan eijß th;n livmnhn tou' purovß. ouJ'toß oJ qavnatoß oJ deuvterovß ejstin, hJ livmnh tou' purovß.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Re 20:15 kai; ei~ tiß oujc euJrevqh ejn th'/ bivblw/ th'ß zwh'ß gegrammevnoß ejblhvqh eijß th;n livmnhn tou' purovß.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and [highlight]night for ever and ever[/highlight]
Usage:

aijwvn Aion (ahee-ohn');
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 165

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age

So Don it could mean eternity or a period take your pick

KJV Word Usage and Count
ever 71
world 38
never 6
evermore 4
age 2
eternal 2

Ever learning and not coming to the knowledge of the TRUTH . It was hid from the wise and prudent and revealed to the babes and sucklngs!!!!!!!!!!

You are not the only Biblical scholar on the forum Don but "heh!!" you are interesting incisive and all that provocative dialoguing is about.

alan

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