I agree Blink, meditation is a great aid in learning how to listen.  It helps bring a necessary, and constructive Yin balance to us.

  So, once we have learned to listen, to go within, and to be receptive (Yin) and we start listening more and more, then what do we do?  What do we do with the info and ideals that we may gain through meditation?   

  I believe that if we want to fully and truly know Source and be at one with its Consciousness, we cannot fully realize this just through meditation alone, but when we come to the point of losing self through service (this requires a Yang/active balance, a higher octave Yang note).   

   That's the hard one, because it requires that perfect balance of Yang and Yin, which it seems few have so far mastered.   It requires constantly caring more about others and the collective rather than the little self.   It's a holistic process and balance of listening, being/channeling, and doing. 

   Sometimes its just more comfortable to stay more within the Yin part of it all.   Anyone can meditate, but it doesn't directly bring spiritual growth for anyone, though it is a definite aid or facilitator in that whole process.   We need some form of going within and quieting, because this world is so loud and outer focussed, but we can become too much the mystic if we become too attached to that safe place of inner quiet and closeting ourselves to achieve same.  There are different kinds of peace i have learned.  Sometimes there is peace at a price, and neither the price nor the motivation is love but rather fear of confrontation, pain, challenge, and outer inharmony.   

  Myself, lately i've been struggling a bit with the whole lose self in service thing.   There are times lately wherein i have very little time to "myself", because i have 3 clients i work with, its like i have 3 different jobs because of the driving involved (3 different places) and sometimes i find myself resenting this and not allowing joy to flow (money is not a big focus in this and i do not make a lot).  Sometimes i wish i had more time to myself, by myself.  I'm constantly surrounded by other people, and while i like being around our other selves, sometimes i just want to be alone too, to hear outer silence.   

   What more, i feel called to do more volunteer type activity too.   I feel somewhat torn.  One part of me wants to just be able to listen to music, watch a movie, read a book, chillax you know, hang out with my wife, write/express/read on forums, sit alone in the dark and outer quiet by myself, etc. you know ME time--down time..   

  Another part says, "you will never completely know Source until you care more about others than you do about the little self and its seemingly precious time to itself."  "you need to learn how to give it ALL away, on all levels, and in that giving do you truly gain."   "to be completely detached towards the little self and its wants"..

At the same time, this latter part of me also cautions to not rush the process, and that a certain amount of alone time is necessary, particularly meditation time and just relaxing, otherwise i will not hold effectively to my center in my more Yang endeavors and in my interactions with our others selves. 

  Dunno, this is where meditation has been leading me lately.   To a precipice of sorts, and i wonder am i strong enough to jump off this cliff with full trust..not completely knowing if there are warm waters below or not?   For me, it helps to look at an example of someone who already lived this completely and fully.   This example helps to keep me strong in the knowing that its the only true way to find one's real self and in order to perpetuate and speed up the process for others.

Justin:

When it comes to the service thing, don't let guilt be your guide. Sometimes when we provide ourselves with free time so we can use the time to grow, our growth ends up benefiting others.

Blink, I get up between 4 and 5 every morning so I have time to spend 2 –3 hours in meditation and prayer. I also incorporate contemplation and Tai Chi during that time period. During warm weather I will do this outside. I love watching the sunrise.

Love, Kathy

Hi blink,
members,



Good topic.
What is more urgent than the single most important thing necessary for the transformation and divinisation of individuals and the world?

Meditation is unquestionably a dynamic activity that requires patience, vigilance, receptivity, poise and dedication. Real meditation is direct spiritual growth in action. It is action in establishing among other things, stillness of the mind and the body. This is not easy thing to do, but there is really no other more effective way to transform the waking consciousness.

It is so much more than a chillin', relaxin', balancing 'antidote' to a confusing, tiring, frustrating outer world - like a beer at the end of a tough day - as this common contemporary notion incorrectly trivializes the real potential of meditation. That premise is based simply on lethargy, inertia, or the absense of activity, which is the natural state of the inert body when not animated by any higher principle - also like allowing the consciousness to simply be carried along like a wild child taking a ride on the perpetually busy, noisey and very important mind's roller coaster, or being swept along passively within streams of desire fulfillment, personality division and aggression, or to be lulled into sleep, the natural state of the gross physical. Being swept along (our consciousness that is) by ignorance, is in the spiritual sense (soul's pov) a type of inertial passive inactivity, even though it seems like William S. said - "much ado" - even if only "about nothing" (or was that Jerry S?). This is why spiritual traditions speak of illusion.  What is needed is dynamism in tranquility - the real activity mode of the soul - to displace and replace the inactivity of the consciousness identified as a passive instrument with the ignorant physical world and its ignorant animators.

The mind must be consciously, deliberately and actively made tranquil and receptive.
In fact, there has to be a very dynamic vigilance involved in establishing and maintaining a state of both inner equanimity of mind and outer poise of gross physical and vital bodies. The lower aspects or components of the being must be subservient to the higher, not the other way around as is fairly normal in our world - and the reason the world is as we find it.

The outer world will always be a difficult dangerous place if we do not meditate in order to transcend and transform the inherent ignorance of the base reality we find ourselves in - including our own nature. Fortunately we have this potential within us. Is there any tradition which denies this? Meditation is literally a transformation of consciousness and life which means the alteration of reality itself  - no matter what dimension one may find 'oneself' "in".

It is not just learning how to listen - it is the listener becoming both the sound and the ear at once.
What is being listened to? The higher and highest parts of ones own being.

Meditation is a conscious ascension into higher realms within the waking physical consciousness. What is experienced is increasingly retained just like with any practice, and becomes increasingly usable on the physical plane. That is because there is also a 'descent' into the physical of the higher consciousness by the receptivity one actively creates in meditation.

Meditation is a subjective identification with some consciousness, hopefully a higher one.
It is receptivity in action.
It brings direct growth and transformation.
It is a 'retrieval' process by one's own soul for one's own being - that we can invoke, cooperate in, and become the recipients of. This is the most important retrieval because it determines for the individual, the possibility and quality of all other 'retrievals' of other individuated consciousness in any other dimension - including on the physical, where we currently often find ourselves in the here and now, wherever that is.

Which is better - meditation or service? Yes, anybody can meditate. And yes, anybody can also be self-giving, too. The questions then might be: What are we meditating on? What are we giving of? It is an illusion of sorts to treat these as two different questions for they are really one and the same.  

For people who meditate what happens is that the meditation becomes a service, an active self-giving service to the universe, to God, in the form of self-transformation, or God-becoming - then the transforming and transformed being is used as an 'instrument'  of service in the mundane world - and this service, because of the quality embodied in what is being offered, becomes like a meditation. So these are potentially quite interchangeable with no essential difference in the end - like 2 sides of a coin. It is the value/quality that matters and that quality is determined by the intent and the effectiveness of practice, both of which could be said to originate with and continue because of Grace.

Afterall, what good is 'service' if we don't embody what is needed to be given, or if we do not know when to give, how to give, what to give, who to give to? Meditation provides all of those things. It creates the very capacity to serve. Otherwise we may simply be foisting the frustrations of our untransformed ignorance, its products and byproducts - onto our fellow human beings and the world, and who benefits from that?

And what good is meditating if we can't use it to grow into our own highest divinity, to receive ourselves what is of real value, what is our real identity to therefore be of the best service to the Creator and the Creation whatever that Will is for us as individuals?

The two aspects are inseparable and need to be developed together.

It is significant that the peace, poise, dynamism, clarity, light, love, etc. - when acquired incrementally, and cumulatively in an ongoing meditation practice, can then be brought forward more easily in the general waking consciousness. These qualities become more familiar in the waking consciousness and begin to displace the more common manifestations of 'normal modes of consciousness', and therefore can be available to ourselves and others, and be increasingly utilized in 'wordly' activities of any sort - which are then suffused with the qualities received in the meditation practice.

After some time and depending on the intensity and sincerity of one's practice, one can meditate more and more within many outer situations, even while doing things like driving. This is part of what is called 'ascension'  - the holding of progressively higher consciousness while engaged in earthly activity.

Either in a personal or collective sense - meditation is not an escape or avoidance of life by any means. It is an active practice in detachment from physical plane ignorance. This detachment is not indifference - quite the contrary. Meditation is extremely useful and powerfully transforming, both for oneself and the world. It is a form of self-giving and self-transformation - one component of the whole, raising the consciousness of the totality by raising one part, and also by having a transformative effect on all other parts as well in the process.

Meditation is a specific type of action, real work. It is literally discovery of , communion with, and acquisition of one's true Self. Of course, anybody can meditate - this is true because everybody has a soul.  What kind of day will you have when you get up in the early morning and meditate before doing anything else?  I'm sure Kathy knows. This is where the holistic rubber really meets the road. It becomes a comprehensive venture involving and integrating every life-decision and activity since priorities need to be established. Iow's - it is sometimes difficult to get up at 4 or 5 am to meditate on God if we also need to watch the Jay Leno Show the night before. Not everyone has the will to do this even though anybody can certainly talk about it. Not everybody has the devotion to acquire the will to do this. But everything is possible. And if practice means anything - it means working with the possible in order to create the inevitable.

With meditation life is and becomes quite different on all levels. But this takes time, patience, humility, sincerity, devotion, dedication, determination and perserverance.  What is the point of trying to meditate if you are going to then cancel out its potentials by indulging in other things that lower the consciousness and make it more difficult to meditate, thus drawing back to the original starting place? How can one lose a few pounds by eating many pizzas every day and not exercising, etc.?  

This issue of consistency of action and intent is exactly the same and parallel to what actually transpires internally on a moment-to-moment basis (only on much more subtle levels) in ordering priorities of consciousness when engaged in meditation. ie: Indulge wayward thoughts or concentrate? Pray for receptivity or think about grilled cheese sandwiches? Open heart with gratitude or think jealously about friend's new car? It is difficult to do, and yet this process needs to be reckoned with as everyone starts from some place and gradually goes forward from that place. But it is generally productive to use action that is consistent with ones goals, and the more this is done the more this can be done. In this way meditation is structurally the same as any learning process, only remarkably - - it is the easiest, cheapest, most far reaching, most reliable, safest, most accessible, simplest bar none - means to transform a life in the greatest, most profound and ultimate sense.

There is real power inside poise and that is why in a good meditation, people often feel a simultaneous and inseparable peace and dynamism . The peace is actually a latent expression of power. Eventually this displaces the 'rush' of the outer personality's modes of objective ego projection into the world (with its subsequent painful consequences because not 'real', ie: based on ignorance) - and reality is transformed subjectively as individual personality becomes the conscious instrument of the soul, which has inherent oneness with All.

- u  


Links of possible interest on the subject:

http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/search?SearchableText=meditation  
over 3000 references on meditation by Sri Chinmoy - poems, q&a, essays, etc. randomly returned by search

http://www.srichinmoy.org/spirituality/concentration_meditation_contemplation/me...
an entire site devoted to meditation and important subtopics such as 'samadhi'.

You can also link further to videos showing advanced states of meditation

Hi everyone

Very nice posts here

I would like to add a simple comment (or two )
on some of the benefits gained through practice
as it recently came into focus:

the dependance to time
as if suddenly its dominancy fades
and you get to realize that the time you spent in meditation
has not really stolen anything from your schedule
as you seem to do as much if not more than before
in less time than before

sometimes it almots feels as if by finding the right moment to act
the acting is done through you, with less effort
as if it was planned the way it is beeing done
and has always been done...

like turning back suddenly to realize that
all the pieces came into place
without much physical investment

I feel a part of that comes from concentration
and another part probably from accepting things as they are
and not wasting time on what is not worth it (not feasible or not worth beeing done)

recent readings on the subject:
An orderly chaos: Chogyam Trungpa
where you rediscover the notion of your life beeing a mandala
you in the center, the world all around
balancing all parts of your life from the inside

You could also add Meditation in action, also by C. Trungpa

and The meditative mind by Daniel Goleman
a classic, that still has the merit of putting side to side
the various forms of meditation

Those are relatively old books
but how they came in my hands now
made sense and specifically on that last point:
they seem to fill a gap that has been part of me since my twenties
explaining what i always felt i was missing
as if I was out of the current drifting
knowing that the mainstream was not far away...

those books are the mainstream suddenly rediscovered
and in my practice, they seemed to be part of a found past
suddenly reemerging for me to complete

I think one of the roles of meditation
is to permit the ordering of your life
layer after layer,
without which, no real progress can be made

recoverer wrote on Feb 21^st, 2008 at 2:48pm:



   Hi Albert, i very much agree with the above, and i will give some real life examples of the above. 
  I've met some folks who have said that they have been meditating for years, but who i didn't get a particularly loving and intune kind of vibe from.   Perhaps they have simply learned to become receptive to not so intune and/or non constructive sources?

  I've met others who have never, or rarely meditated in the more traditional (usually labeled "Eastern") way, who radiated a lot of love and wisdom.    Sure, regular meditation would probably help bring this out even more in them, i'm not knocking meditation at all, i believe it's an important aid and process, otherwise i wouldn't practice it. 

  I would agree with you, someone could meditate for years and years, and if they didn't drop certain limiting thought patterns, habits, etc., then spiritually they may not grow as much as they think such meditation would somehow automatically bring them.   

    But, at the same time, i believe meditation can help people to open up to the awareness of what is blocking them, as well as just having a clearing and balancing affect.   But again, it depends on what one chooses to listen too, become receptive too, etc. 

   That's the thing about meditation, it puts one into a much more receptive state.   It is very akin to the whole notion of hypnosis.   Hypnosis in and of itself is a rather neutral state.  In hypnosis one can program self with either constructive suggestions, or with destructive suggestions, the hypnosis just simply allows for a better, more direct and deeper programming.   
Meditation is very similar.   One can open self in meditation and without the right ideals, without the right intentions, without the right attitude and suggestions/affirmations, and come into alignment with parts of themselves or outside influences which aren't very helpful and constructive.  Believe it or not, there are some dark energies who are quite happy when they find out certain more vulnerable individuals have started meditating.

  Low vibrating sources in other words.   Conversely, with the right ideals, intentions, etc. one can open self to the very Creative God forces.   I know when i've had flashes of intense White Light,and feel feelings of complete joy, peace, and connectedness that i've opened up to the highest within/without.
Similar with psychism.   Psychism is of the Soul, and these are Soul senses based on shifting more to the receptive/Yin to receive and to become aware of our receiving, but we can align to both constructive and non constructive flows.   Bruce Moen's account of the psychic medium lady who connected to a "guide" named Sean is a good example of that.   Well folks with strong psychic tendencies, are simply folks who tend to be more receptive than the average person, more in touch with the "Right brain nature" of themselves--this is why there tends to be more actively, deeply, and consistently intuitive women out there then men, because more women are more innately receptive and Yin in nature and tendency.

  As regards my earlier post, i was more addressing the extremes.  I was addressing the Monk, Mystic, and/or Yogi type who closets themselves away from the world, sits in a cave or monestary (for example), meditates all the time, but who doesn't really live life.  Anyone can feel holy when in an Ashram or on top of a Mountain with just self and nature to interact with.  But, how many folks can maintain that state of At-One-Ment within a close, marital type relationship for example or in a 9 to 5 type job?   It's those conditions, those areas of life, which are where the real growth takes place in our choosing, because there is more challenge to face (speaking on average).   

  Such folks as the Monk/Mystic/Yogi type can become over polarized to the Yin within self oft, they become very Water, and sometimes too much so.    Such folks could really use some Fire balance and go out and use that ability to listen, to be receptive, for the greater good of the collective.   Such as that lady i mentioned on the aura thread, who devoted some 60 years of her life to holistic service to others even in the face of constant personal danger and material want.   THAT is why she had an almost pure White Light aura.   

    As i've said, meditation helps out in that process, but ultimately it's the choices we make in  our daily lives, which either bring growth or block or retard same and the thought patterns, etc. we choose to consistently align with.     If one gets intune enough, then they start to maintain that more balanced and receptive state more and more in their "normal" waking hours.    Again, what i would stress is not receptivity in and of itself which brings growth, but what one chooses to become receptive too, and then how you put that into holistic living/action/service.   

Also again, your intentions and motivations for meditation (or anything in life) are very important.    Some folks seem to go into this whole thing, not because they want to lift up the collective by expanding self, but because want to think of themselves as "spiritual" in nature, or want to develop certain powers or have knowledge that others don't, for some examples.     I've met some of these kinds of folks too.   I guess its rather obvious that i disagree with the whole, "meditation automatically brings one spiritual development" over simplified belief thing.    It's more shades of gray than that, like most things in life.   

 

My take on the question of meditation producing or not producing spiritual opening Justin is based on observation of quite few people over the years and tends to be more along the lines that the problem is not that meditation does not work, but rather that many people do not truly meditate.

Or that the ability to truly meditate only develops over time, and that in some cases despite the appearance of meditating there's so much forcing and grasping going on and the technique is so far off that no opening is actually occurring at all and no progress is being made.

Yet there are other for whom it produces clear progress - they become something else. Perhaps the two extremes are starting from very different situations.

It's maybe worth saying too that meditation is not necessarily confined to sitting on the cushion, there's many that meditate quite spontaneously and unknowingly in normal life.

I guess it's in the end a peculiarity that the journey and the destination are about the same thing - the establishment of the ability to rest easily while observing with equanimity what arises in our external or internal worlds  - without reacting in a conditioned manner to these, usually out of fear or distraction.

When we start meditating first we may if we practice and use the right technique get to the point where we can in absence of strong stimulus or distraction move into a space that approximates to this, at least for short periods.

With time the state deepens. And with more time it eventually reaches out so that it's spontaneously maintained right through normal life - awake, asleep, in the face of great disturbance, threats, fearsome events etc.

It's in other words possibly better to think of meditation as a multi hued journey than dualistically as an 'is', or 'is not' state....