Quote:To get into a form of argument where we attempt to force our 'truth' on others as being the only 'truth' basically fails to grasp or ignores this reality. There is no single absolute truth we can know at this C1 level, and to seek for it amounts to grasping. Which failure to align with flow as outlined in the other thread on Osho inevitably leads to suffering.
That statement and premise is, in and of itself, an "absolute" one ironically. To be non absolute, one should rather say, that its possible and/or relative in relation to the attunement of the individual in relation to Source and PUL--the Standards and that which allows for the condition of relative spiritual development to begin with.
Contradictions, contradictions, contradictions everywhere and not a drop of non relative truth to drink.. And yet the Living Waters of Truth are always before us, waiting to be drunk, and only will be by those who
believe they exist in the first place.
Honestly, who are you to say its not possible whatsoever? Perhaps the Elders, the Co-Creator Gods would speak and say differently? Perhaps PUL is the absolute and universal truth which threads through this Universe into every other one? Perhaps the above is naught but a limiting belief system perpetuated by centuries of those who themselves have not fully remembered and perfectly lived their At-One-Ment with their other selves and with Source?
Quote:The motive is inevitably ego induced fear. Fear for example that our belief system will be challenged and so deprive us of the ersatz support we derive from it, fear that another will suffer as a result of unconditionally taking on board a belief we regard as false (perhaps we ourselves had a very bad (learning) experience with the same issue) or fear that a belief will empower another in a way that will prevent our being able to control or otherwise use them.
The statement i made bold and italicized in the above, could from another perspective be construed of as "compassion" if the motivation is to see another whole, happy, and not suffering.
For example. You've burned your hand on the stove by being attracted by the pretty flame, and then trying to grap same. You realized after being burned, that it wasn't a good idea to do that in the first place, but there's really no shame, guilt, etc. involved, just a detached awareness that hand in flame equals probable burning.
Someone else comes along, sees the pretty flame, and starts to reach their hands into the flame. You say in a calm friendly voice, "hey friend, you might want to think about not doing that. I did that, and burned myself pretty badly, which ended up interfering with a lot of other things i wanted to get accomplished for awhile."
Basically, you're explaining the potential consequence in a logical, impersonal but caring kind of way. Your motivation? You don't want to see them go through the same suffering that you did and so you speak up.
Now, the person you're talking to might say something like, "hey why don't you mind your own business, i see no reason why this flame should burn my hand. Get a life and stop telling people what they should or shouldn't do you proselyting ahole."
Or they might say, "hmmm, you may have a point, can i see your hand again...it took you how long to recover? Well, let me take a quiet moment...reason this out for myself after listening to your logical points."
In any case, you can't be worried about their reaction to you and your message sharing, can you? You can only worry about whether or not you tried and was motivated by love/compassion or not. Sure, it would be nice to get a thanks, but being realistic and having tried to point this issue out to quite a few others already, you've realized that chances are, most aren't going to listen to you let alone actually thank you. But once in a great while, someone actually does listen and it saves their hand from being burned.
Granted, there may be deeper reasons for them to burn their hand, maybe they pre set it up on some level, etc. there's various variables that are possible or even probable... BUT you don't know these fully, you can only speak on the conditions at hand
, as you see them. You still basically don't want to see that person suffer, though you're open to the possibility that in a sense it might be a necessity for them in a deeper sense.
Dunno about you, but a person with that kind of motivation, and who acts in that manner, i would say is 9 out of 10 times being actually "compassionate", rather than acting from fear. Fear generally is felt most for self, or those "extensions" closest to self, whether lover, a particular cherished toy, what not. Fear is generally not felt for someone who in a C1 sense is more of a stranger or someone we are not personally and emotionally close too, as far as not wanting to see them burn their hands or suffer in general.
Now, take the same or similar conditions. A person has burnt their hand by touching the pretty flame. Another person comes along and starts to reach their hand in the flame and the former burnee yells at them, "hey you stupid, DON'T DO THAT!! I WON'T LET YOU!! You're gonna burn your hand you dummy!....
Alright, fine don't listen to me, but if you stick your hand in there, not only are going to burn your hand, BUT you are going to go to the horrible, eternally punishing place i call HELL after!... Hah, don't look so keen now to stick your hand in there. Hey, btw, if you enlist my help, i can get you close to the flame without actually getting hurt and i can help keep you out of that place called HELL if you listen to me, even if you do stick your hand fully in there."
Or, the former burnee, doesn't really say anything to the person reaching their hand in the flame, but instead runs over, punches them in the face and knocks em down.
Or, another former burnee doesn't say anything because having been yelled at once for trying to warn someone, well not liking it and taking it too personally, they out of fear and dislike of being yelled up, clam up and don't say anything but watch with sad, passive eyes, and offer cooing sounds and words of compassion after.
Or another doesn't say anything, because well after being burned themselves, they think "hey, if i got burned, others deserve to get burned too." If they indulge in that too much, they might even come to relish seeing someone get burned and may even look to facilitate the whole process.
Yeah, chances are that those examples are probably coming more from a place of fear, than of pure helpful compassion, though in most cases there is probably a mix of same within a person. Rarely is it completely black and white when applying principles to actual human behaviors and motivations.
Quote:We have great difficulty in accepting that what we regard as suffering is also a part of life, and often as we've discussed the source of the greatest learning too. Whether well meaning or not all of the above amount to various attempts to insulate ourselves and/or others from it. The problem is that our unwise actions actually in the end greatly exacerbate the suffering.
Addressed in the above example. One can only do the best with what they actually know. We don't always know whats best or not for others, know if it was pre set up by that person's greater self for a learning purpose or not, and generally its best to err on the side of desiring to alleviate suffering.
Yes, sometimes this means to not say or do anything. There is prayer that covers all the above, and it is "Not my will, but the Creative forces Will be done." Then you meditate--listen to the answer, ideally.
Quote:This fear means that all sorts of inappropriate tactics get justified in an effort to succeed - on some sort of 'the end justifies the means' basis. Yet what's surely required of us is that we trust in basic goodness, in God's grace or whatever and so seek to become aligned with the natural 'flow' of things.
Do you mean like this for an example. Rosiland McKnight relates in one of her books, that at one point she became suicidally depressed and was getting ready to kill herself, when a voice yelled quite loudly in her head something like "NO DON"T DO IT!" It startled her, and was a catalyst to make her think twice about going through with it.
Now, this voice didn't try to take over her will, or to totally control her, but it was quite firm and in your face, quite commanding. She later on found out that it was her very spiritually intune Guide "Ah So" whom normally is pretty live and let live.
To me, the whole issue is relative depending. Did the ends justify the means, though some with little humility but who have much pride and arrogance, probably would get rather peed off at being yelled at like that and told not to do something they thought they wanted to do?
Dunno, i think the "end justified the means" in that case. Now, if Ah So had tried to take over her body and her Will, no, such an end would not have justified the means in my eyes and heart. But he tried everything short of that, and i believe it was counted to him for "righteousness" as they say.
If you were her guide in that situation, would you have just said 'hey, consider what you are doing', having already tried that many times and knowing it just wasn't working, and knowing that the consequences and eventual suffering that your friend was about to set for themselves, was much worse than yelling a command at them? Or would not have said anything and just silently hum to yourself "que sara, sara, whatever will be will be, the future is not my to see..."???
Quote:Every single religious war there's been (and that's plenty) has inevitably been justified by this means, but the ego interests of the sponsors inevitably end up leading the charge.
I think you are assuming too much here, especially in the over generalized and
absolute sense. My sense is that some religious wars, while started by those in power in the guise of religion and belief systems related to same, really were started by t.p.t.b's for more immediately and obviously materialistic reasons relating to land, resources, wealth, position, etc.
It's just that they used the cloak of religion to motivate, manipulate and galvanize the common people who ended up being the actual fighters and cannon fodder for they who know how to pull the masses emotional strings.
Same thing is going on today i would say. These forces and groups use other means of deceiving and manipulating the masses for more general and long term goals of keeping people unawake and thus more easily malleable. One way is to help spread any and all belief systems whether in the spiritual or religious or scientific guise that strengthen ego tendencies, confuse people, and/or tell them they don't need to lose their attachment and over focus to the material and its fruits.
Quote:
Whatever the motivation the problem is that no source of teaching or other information is infallible, but equally there's none that can't in specific circumstances potentially help us.
Another absolute statement. True enough regarding words whether spoken or written, because words are outer symbols and not the truths and realities themselves. However, one could purely be and live an example and in that sense be "infallible" in so much as their try, though its Dependant on others whether or not too follow in the foot steps of infallible truth.
The infallible and pure Waters of Truth has occasionally descended to these depths so that others could drink from its everlasting, eternal, thirst quenching well, but most drunk shallowly and many others not at all.
But that doesn't mean that we should seek out brackish or tainted waters instead, does it? If we go from tainted well to tainted well with our little make shift water purifier, eventually the filter gets shot, and we end up getting sick off those un pure waters.
Suffering is not an absolute necessity...it only becomes a necessity when we get stuck in patterns and ways of being which lead to suffering to begin with. Otherwise, if we can, we should try to avoid it, simply because there is nothing inherently beautiful, true, or real about it. Its not but the consequence of indulging in illusions while reality is and was always there for the experiencing. I say, save yourself some time and effort and start choosing reality from the get go. Same message of my Teacher.
He did not say, "follow me and you could possibly have everlasting life (no break or lapse in the continuum of conscious awareness and simultaneous awareness of all aspects of the Total self, the Whole)" He did not beat around the bush, show false humility and say, "i may or may not be right about this, but i believe..."
Instead he was gently authoritative and commanding, positive and active, he said, "I am the way, the truth and the Light, follow my example and live completely how i live and you shall know and be what i am." And as Alan said somewhere else, when Pontius Pilate asked him what "truth" was, Yeshua stood silent, did not need to answer because pure undiluted truth stood before the questioner. Pure Light, PUL incarnate and personified, pure constructiveness , pure positivity, complete absence of fear and desire to others harm, and ever giving without thought of the little self. Completely unto like Source his Father/Mother.
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