dave_a_mbs wrote on Feb 11^th, 2008 at 2:40pm:


  True dat.

  Hey Dave, have you ever checked out this site before?   It was started by a guy who is very interested Eastern belief systems, in the Guru-Disciple relationship, and stuff related to same.

   He (or She?) keeps track of many Gurus, and lists a lot of their well known teachings, methods, known ways of living, etc.

Some is conjecture and some is well sourced and some is direct experience.  Apparently they have met in person, at least a few well known Gurus. 

  The site is found at http://www.kheper.net/index.htm

And more specifically, a list and short description of many different teachers is found at

http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/listing.html

  If you haven't already read and perused it, i highly recommend it and especially in relation to the list and to the guy in the above thread title. 

   Sure, its no concrete proof or what not, but it's clear that this person thinks highly of some teachers though they may criticize others.   But as i've said, beyond reading things by certain teachers or about them from others, its most important to move past an intellectual analysis and learn how to feel and atune to the predominant consciousness pattern associated with them.   

  You have said many times on this site that you have zero psychic ability, well i don't fully believe that anyways, but maybe it would be helpful to develop more what you do have?

All I can say is that I trust my discrimination and experiences more, than the words of a man who lived a highly immoral life as Osho did.

Even though I say I don't agree with everything eastern teachings say, this doesn't mean that I believe all eastern teachers are immoral. For example, the Dali Lama seems like a good humble man. I don't agree with everything he has to say. He has to speak within the parameters of his tradition. I figure the divine powers that be understood what was needed when they selected a spirit to incarnate as him. It seems like they did a good job. Osho on the other hand, he was a self serving self appointed type.

I read Osho (Rajneesh at the time) years ago. Perhaps he said some good things. If he spoke of reincarnation in a conventional/linear manner, I clearly don't agree with him. The below from another thread expresses why feel strong about the reincarnation issue.  Both Alan and I have experienced a higher realm. Is it just a coincidence that both of us are opposed to the over and over reincarnation viewpoint?

"Heart chakra blocks and other energetic blocks come in many ways.  It can be quite surprising when it comes to what kind of issues block us. Some may block us for many years without us realizing it.

One thing that keeps us going when life becomes difficult is hope. Even though things are tough today, if we hang on, our future will be bright.  How much hope can a person have if due to false teachings, they believe they are going to have to reincarnate hundreds or even thousands of times before they get to move on to a better way of life? Some might say life isn't that tough, but for many it is very tough. Just read the newspaper or watch the evening news and you'll see that what I say is true. This being the case, if a person is going to have incarnate many many times until they become a supposed enlightened Buddha, they are going to have to live more than a few very tough incarnations. Therefore, hope becomes an ultra-marathon competition.

When I belonged to a cult that was based upon eastern teachings, people were aware of the reincarnate over and over concept. They weren't concered, because they felt confident that they would become enlightened during this lifetime. Eventually most of us learned that not even our guru was enlightened, and we left the group. Since we've left the group, some members have found that other gurus they followed were also fake, yet they still never got over this idea of having to reincarnate over and over again until you become an enlightened Buddha.  Therefore, somewhere within their subconscious mind they have a collection of thoughts that don't enable hope and joy to flow completely within their hearts.  I believe it is tragic that so many people have taken on such an unnecessary hope sapping belief system, because some fake gurus decided to play the role of God."

  Hi Dave,

  I personally don't believe that beliefs in and of themselves, actually "get us anywhere" in a direct sense, let alone up a mystical mountain.    Granted, beliefs can potentially have a powerful affect, and certainly shape our perception of collective and individual reality, which indirectly can affect the way we end up living, but other than that beliefs are completely passive and inactive, it's the Will that matters.

  That's why i tend to disagree with the whole, there are many paths saying.   To me, there is only One true path, and that is living, being, and remembering what Bruce calls "PUL".     Sure, this can take many forms and shift from moment to moment, but that's the only condition and beingness which brings growth, or the lack of same fosters stagnation and limitation. 

   Applying that to wanna be spiritual Teachers, i don't care what they call themselves, it certainly need not be branded "Christian", they could call themselves, up down ding dong slap happy chocolate ice cream bringer to the masses.   

  I don't care what they label their beliefs or what others do, whether they're from East or West, West-East, South East, North West (sounds like Rumsfeld describing where the WMD's in Iraq supposedly were).   

   Look at parenting and children for a moment.   You can preach and teach to your kid via words all you want, but chances are that if you tell them one thing, but actually do another yourself...what are they going to follow most of the time?   Your actual example and not your flowery words, which after you contradict them yourself, start to sound pretty darn hollow to most thinking, independent type individualistic children.   

   So, a person's example is far, far more affecting on average, than what a person says or doesn't say.   

  Apply this to wannabe spiritual teachers and their teachings, especially those who actively seek those roles.   For the most part, I just don't care what they say, that's not where the real teaching is, its in the example and the way they themselves actually lived.   

  It's not their beliefs which matter to me, because in the end, nobody's beliefs actually brings anyone anywhere in a direct sense, but how a person lives.  This is such a simple, but so true perspective, but yet at the same time it seems like so many seem to forget or look it over. 

  This is the 1st and most important step in the 12 step program of approaching outside sources and teachers when one is looking to for insight, and catalytic info.   The 1st step in learning to discriminate, particularly in relation to those who set themselves up as teachers of spiritual truths, wisdom, or insight. 

  Because their example, their very consciousness and emanation, can either have the potential influence to strengthen our real self, or our ego tendencies, despite and contrary to what actual beliefs they are "teaching" or promoting.   Not always, but often enough.

  Ideally, one can find an outside source or teacher who achieves both, the more accurate words and teaching via same, and the living example of that which is and brings greater truths.  Usually a teacher who does the latter, will tend to do the former as well, simply because like Bruce here says, there is no other Consciousness, energy, and way of being which expands and balances our perceptions (thus our ability to communicate more accurate and holistically balanced truths) than tapping into and attuning to PUL.   

  Meanwhile, life in general and suffering is our best teacher for most, much of the time.   The daily relationships, challenges, testings, and overcoming of the former two, can be a good "teacher".

  But the harm and retrogression that a largely false, very ego centered, and manipulative teacher can facilitate in otherwise good hearted and minded folks... well, it's certainly not something to actively seek out is it?  Even more important or critical, its important and spiritual, RESPONSIBLE behavior to not to promote them as teachers or their teachings.   Everything relative influences to some degree, every other relative pattern.

   It's akin to telling a person who is looking to buy a used car, and actively telling them to go with someone who is most likely going to rip them off, a con type.    Why would anyone who actually cares about others, actually do that unless they themselves are deluded, hood winked and/or manipulated by the greedy and corrupt cars salemen with a known history of ripping people off. 

  We need to start approaching and talking about spiritual sources and teachers, like how more independent minded, discriminating, and smart folks talk about their gov. and politicians.   Even more so, because spiritual issues are in the long run far more important and personally influencing on so many levels, than even our gov., politics, and the like.    I've seen you say things that were critical of the Bush administration...well it seems you are using your discrimination and speaking out in those instances... why not start applying that discrimination and speaking out in regards to so called "enLightened"  spiritual type teachers?

  It need not be so complicated by putting realization on this super vague, completely indefinable, and anything goes pedestal.  By asking, "well what is enlightenment" and turning that into a mantra of its own....  Truly enlightened people are loving and responsible people who think of and live more for others than for the little self.   No other criteria really applies.   Many of the so called enlightened Guru's on that site i shared, that are listed, do not consistently fit into the former pattern whatsoever.    Why, because becoming a well known, looked to and respected teacher of spiritual truth, calling oneself or being called enlightened is a really powerful ego trip.   I'm sure a percentage may even start off with pretty good intentions and ways of living, but what's that saying about power corrupting?   

  And its much like politics, especially in India and its relationship with the West...  what kind of person tends to seek out positions of political influence in the first place?    Similar with the whole Guru thing, especially as related to Indians looking to come to the West.   

   

"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

That's a great motto Alysia. I've some work to do....

Desert wrote on Feb 9^th, 2008 at 3:36pm:


It's true that everyone has a different opinion on the afterlife.....
Some firmly believe in God.
Some firmly believe in a karma / reincarnation system.
Some believe in a higher plane of existence.
Some believe in a permanent death. (What do you say when these people sneeze? You can't really say God bless you. Maybe it's like... ACHOOO!! Then instead say to them after they sneeze: When you die nothing happens.)

I can see your frustration but people will believe what they believe. I personally do not believe anything is true or false until proven as such. Which means any and all ideas are technically possibilities.

One thing I feel for sure is that if anyone wishes to meditate and attempt to connect to this focus 27 or any other idea of this type, reading too much information is probably going to effect your imagination and just put ideas in your head that you are seeing what you are supposed to be seeing.. because you read it. The only way to really use a system like this one is to do it religiously and blindly for a period of time and fully document what you experience and then see how it matches up after the fact.

To T's above, and mine too. It's very subtle business this question of ego, and whether or not we're being driven by it in our approach. And also in terms of how people interpret what we post.

I tend when I post to have a lot invested in 'rational explanation'. In not screwing up. A long story.

I've on the other hand many times had replies that read rigid beliefs into what I wrote which I'd hope is nothing like so much the case. Because it's an evolving path and 'what the bleep as I've been saying do we know'.

On the other hand I've found Buddhist thought hugely useful in making sense of myself and the world. Which implies belief too, even if not the standard Buddhist view.

And what do I truly know about me??

There is obviously only one path, just as there is only one awareness of it. But there are so many versions that it looks like the world is filled with people, all speaking different languages, since that's how they express the one path. In fact, when we meet with some of them we cannot understand them.

As Recoverer says, best not to put your faith in those who appear deceitful. However, to reject someone else's approach, while that person follows the one path available for them in their unique manner, and according to the unique experiences of their life through which they think and understand in a specific manner simply proves the point, that we can't always understand what others gain from their teachers.

And, as Justin pointed out, the teachers aren't where it's at either. Theymerely stimulate us, as do the scent of flowers, bird song and the green grass waving in the wind. But no one of us can fully and accurately describe what IS universally real. Like the three basic yogas that converge into raja yoga, PUL is part, but not all. Joyous creativiy is part, but not all. Clearminded awareness is part, but not all. And those three together form satchitananda, which is part, but not all. It is not the yoga that one practices, but the practice that becomes yoga.

Because we come from every possible direction, some of us are going to learn through mechanisms that others will find distasteful, obscene, ridiculous, or whatever. It has to be that way, else there would only be one person.

In the end, maybe that's all there is. But who? - Hey, Alysia, maybe You're IT.

dave

PS: I'd change my brand if wine does that to you.