Hi the previous post sent itself off before I could finish?

Nanna Quoted
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Nanna, I believe your father opened himself to dark negativity by the use of alchohol, but he was not a dark soul himself but a good kind man. I can see this in his offspring, namely you my beloved Nanna. His soul was being reabilitated in the afterlife.


I would like to emphasize again that my very lucid hell OBE had nothing to do with chemical or drug dellussion or getting into some sort of altered state of consciousness by deep protracted meditation. It just happened out of the blue, so to speak

Varga  Quoted
Quote:


Yes, Varga, after all we are all part of the universal mind are we not?

alan

Nanna

Excuse the appalling errors typographical and others in my latest posts.I have neglected proof reading before posting.


alan

[Albert:] "My experiences have shown me that spirits aren't forced to stay in lower realms.  They choose to do so."
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That of course is my hope based on astral retrievals and my understanding of the Bible.
But a distinction must be drawn between levels of Hell in which souls can be retrieved and others whose evil character is so hardened by a lack of desire to change that the requisite transformation of energetic make-up is no longer practical.  The lower the hell, the less likely it is that retrieval efforts will be successful.  The evidence of astral exploration (especially Swedenborg) suggests that some souls are simply incorrigible.  The heart-rending nature of this issue makes it fertile ground for conjured experiences based on wishful thinking.  The retrieval of a few is no more justification for universalistic dogma than snatching a minnow from a brook is fuel for the claim that other fish like great white sharks must be harmless too.

[Albert:] "One time I hovered above a lower realm during an out of body experience. I clearly understood that beings could leave this realm when they asked for help from light beings.  After the experience ended the thought came to me that sometimes they find their way out through ouija boards."
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This claim about Ouija boards seems so implausible that I would take it as a sign that this particular astral experience is bogus.  Also, remember that Dante's Inferno is pure fiction and is intended as a political satire. 

[Albert:] "I find it hard to believe that God would punish any spirit, not even the spirit of Adolph Hitler, for all of eternity...Plus imagine what it is like when a person such as Hitler finally gets around to admitting what he did. The amount of remorse and guilt he'll have to work through will be something else."
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For me, the real question is whether someone like Hitler is capable of true remorse.  True remorse is more than sorrow for his sad predicamant; it implies a glimpse of a more loving state of consciousness and a longing to attain it.  I hope Hilter is capable of such transformation.  The best astral evidence calls into question whether this is a realistic hope.  That said, despite my pessimism, in the next life I would act on the assumption that any soul is retrievable until I was forced by repeated failure to abandon this hope.

[Albert:] "Atwater...found that people who have such experiences usually have them because of issues of guilt, anger and fear (or some combination)."
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I don't think she succeeds in establishing such a neat causal cannection.  Her wishful thinking causes her to seriously beg the question.  From my survey of such hellish NDEs, there seems to be inadequate justification for her premature generalization.  That said, I hope she is correct.

"She also found that people tend to have NDEs that they need to have."
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Again, I think she is being too selective in the cases she cites.  Many of Rawlings' patients seem to be devastated by hellish experiences with no evident positive function.   One can always decide to read the most likely silver lining into a negative astral experience and then beg the question by making a premature assertion about its purpose.

Don

Don:

Regarding the Ouija board reference, this thought occurred to me "after" my out of body experience was over. There was no doubt about what was revealed when the OBE took place. Things were known automatically.  The ouija board message meant that sometimes spirits find their way out of a lower realm not by choosing to ascend to the light, but because people mess around with ouija boards. My guess is that other things such as messing around with black magic will do the same. In fact, if a person becomes really negative in some way, they might make an energetic connection to such a spirit.

Regarding the Dante's inferno message, it wasn't intended as a joke. This is clear when I consider how the message related to what was going on for me at the time. The point was that as long as I choose to move in the direction of God's will, nothing can force me to be in a lower realm or to do what unloving people/spirits do. I suppose the same is true for others.

I acknowledge that there might be some spirits who get so lost, they never come to the point where they want to move towards God. If I was such a spirit, I would hope that somebody would have mercy on my soul and bring my meaningless and dark experience to an end. For who would want to live in a state that is lacking in love and full of darkness for all of eternity?


Blink:

Thank you.

Berserk2 wrote on Feb 5^th, 2008 at 9:13pm:


That, my dear friend, is BS.

God can choose to elevate whomever God chooses.

It has absolutely nothing to do with our own concept of justice.

love, blink

    I may be wrong, but it's probably this statement below made by Don that Blink was referring to as "B.S."

Don wrote, "The parents' awareness that the criminal has been brought to justice brings a profound sense of satisfaction, though nothing can totally make up for the loss of their child."


   I also greatly disagree with the above.  One cannot experience true happiness from another's suffering in that sense, no matter what that person did or didn't do.   For someone to look for such to begin with, can only be a revenge, and lacking in love type reaction. 

   To know that a person who has erred, may learn or eventually grow into a more loving awareness, because of the things that they have suffered by attracting like to themselves, is a totally different story though.   
  One could find a true happiness in that, and i imagine that the Elders and our Councils look upon our human drama's with those feelings and thoughts in their melded heart minds, a kind of detached concern and compassion and realizing that while suffering does hurt, its for most a necessary catalyst.   They don't take joy in the suffering part, but in the end result realizing that the Fire of challenge and testing is what helped extract the pure Gold from the dross and all that hinders from being pure Gold. 

Absolutely, Alan, I was terribly rude to speak to Don this way and I apologize to him and to you. I considered removing my comment almost immediately after writing it, but I thought it would be better to be corrected by you. If not you, I was sure someone would do it.

This is a subject close to my heart. Don's example is one which I have experienced directly, although no "crime" was committed. I'm not going to go into it.  

People can be very quick to blame in this world, and can be very quick and overly sure who should bear responsibility. Very often we are wrong. Very often, our actions to produce "justice" create only more misery.

I don't really have much sympathy for someone's sense of "closure" regarding murderers. Murderers are also human beings.

But, if in the afterlife, this is justice, so be it.

From my point of view, I don't think I get to "choose" who hitches a ride when I do a "retrieval" if that, indeed, has occurred. Purely from my own experience, it seems to me that there is a greater authority who decides what will occur. I have no idea how this happens, but it is not me who is making this decision, as far as I can tell.

I am willing to consider that it might be "beautiful" for each spirit to rise to his/her own level of experience and float happily or unhappily among those of their own kind. But that concept still annoys something in me. It is a feeling that something is missing from this picture.

Think about the word murderer. That is a label. Who is behind the label? There is a human being behind the label. When we attach labels to human beings we end up with prisons and other places which are palaces of pain which treat human beings like dirt. I don't care what anyone has done in their past. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Today is the day we live in. Now is the moment we live in. Love is the reality we strive to reach.

Say the word "murderer" again. Do you feel any closer to Love?

love, blink