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Touchy subject - but great for insight- (Read 12640 times)
vajra
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Re: Touchy subject - but great for insight-
Reply #30 - Jan 30th, 2008 at 12:44pm
 
Smiley Love I guess is the ONLY way to supersede karma. When it truly manifests everything else will fall in place.

I guess Nanner some examples of karma in play in the situation might be:

The region's lost history of tribal warfare and has resulted in a culture of violence which if you're born into you're going to adopt unless you are exceptionally awakened.

The powers adopt a wholly loveless approach where jockeying for advantage is concerned. The people concerned (leaders and populations) likewise didn't invent this - they were born into a society that as a result of history has already decided that this is the way that you do it. (broadly there's a mix of issues but it's about oil and access to the Persian Gulf by the likes of China and Russia, and the implications of this for the rest)

The geographic and energy dimension of the region means that's the stakes are about as high as they could be and so no holds are barred.

This in some cases sucked the powers concerned into arming themselves with nuclear weapons. Those that have such weapons have them in the region. Pakistan almost destituted itself to catch up with India when they tested their weapon. China, the US, the UK, Israel and possibly before too long Iran have nukes too.

The violence in the region (most recently the war in Afghanistan which ousted the Russians, but it goes back for centuries. Alexander the Great fought in the region for broadly similar reasons) sucked lots of  fundamentlist  Islamists there to defend their fellow Muslims ultimately led to extreme anti-Western views  becoming the norm. These people were converted from hairy tribesmen with muskets to a serious force by the years of training and armament they received.

These people and the ideas and capability they have espoused are now being actively exported around the Western world by fundamentalist Islam and related interests who see in it the possibility for the first time in centuries (encouraged by the defeat of the Russians) of the military restoration of an Islamic empire.

I could go on but the point is that there's an incredible coincidence of factors that has come together in the region. Should you have been born there you could be excused for really be wondering in karmic terms what you might have done to find yourself dropped into such a maelstrom. And that's before it's effects on your individual life path.

The point is that you can talk not so much about the effects of karma on life, but rather from the perspective that life is karma. Everything that happens, because without it we wouldn't be here. Good and bad is only a ego distinction.

It's only really been a very big issue for the locals so far, but the pursuit of selfish aims by outside powers without regard for the consequences for the locals has led to an escalation which with the risk of a nuclear weapon getting into the wrong hands means that elements from there now pose a serious threat to the Western world too.

There's far more going on around the central Asian republics, in the Arab world and in Israel and the rest of the middle East that's driven by this situation too that's too complicated to drag in.

It's perhaps not by accident that many of the traditional prophecies point to some sort of Armageddon event starting in the Middle east.

The genie is very close to getting out of the bottle. Perhaps our karma is in this respect ripening too??

Either way the one way to offset it is through wise and  loving behaviours, but I'd not even know where to start as any sign of weakness anywhere could easily destabilise the situation.  The people in the region have suffered so much and for so long that it's hard to imagine what it might take to get a significant number to a point where they were ready to trust enough to reach out to others....

Wink  Smiley Pray explain cooooommmme doooowwnnn....
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dave_a_mbs
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Re: Touchy subject - but great for insight-
Reply #31 - Jan 30th, 2008 at 1:51pm
 
Hi Desert-  a specific answer -

First - the basic human condition-
In general: We are in the position we are in because we have chosen to be here. If we knew better, we'd do better.
In specific: We're all struggling like the dickens to get out of where we are and go to a better place. If we knew one, we'd go there.

Those who release the three basic negative urges, represented in Tibetan thangkas as the snake, rooster and pig, hatred, pride and greed, then those people cease to have active involvement with events caused by those three urges.

Getting rid of those basic negative urges allows us to stop creating negative karma, because these urges represent the three antitheses to the three existential aspects of reality: energetic process, holomorphic unity, and transcendental awareness. (Note that these are the same terms we encounter in physical models of reality - process, structure and metric relations.)

To cling to a nationality, to the noble fight for Arab self-government against King Hussein or the Ottomans, or the USA, or to cling to any other goal that seems important enough to fight for is an error. It is an error because it implies that society can solve problems of unrest through force.

However, to cling to the noble awareness that by abandonment of divisive tendencies, no matter how seductive, and to develop a lifestyle that is important enough to live for will resolve errors, because it extricates us from social maladaptions.

Society has great value, but only when we support and encourage those aspects that are valuable. If we are willing to take an oppositional stance at any level, we entangle ourselves in the essence of the problem. This is because we cannot involve with anything without contacting it in some manner, and to contact it establishes an interface - like when a curious finger touches hot water - and that interface exerts negative influences on us - the finger feels heat -  so that if we do anything other than withdraw, we will get involved in emotional activities that are essentially painful. - the finger that fails to withdraw will get burned.

The way to create peace and harmony is outside society. It lies solely in the hearts of folks like you and me. Those who have only learned part of this lesson live in places in which others with the same degree of understanding also live. For example, Theravedans live in large societies throughout the East. Mahayanists live in smaller societies in more isolated groups. Militant Christians live in a large conglomerate spreading across North America. Militant Arabs live in the Middle East where their societies have been oppressed for the last 1200 years. Zionists live in a tiny conclave at the end of the Mediterranean due to other oppressions. Hindus occupy the Indian subcontinent, along with similar religious believers such as Jains.

All these groups define themselves as "not the same as our neighbors" for which reason they expect special considerations. It is the distinction that leads to downfall. Once we set up distinctions, we tend to emphasize them and increase our sense of self through enhanced differentiation. That is an error.

Conversely, those groups that identify themselves as inclusive of their neighbors have a tendency to not be clearly visible. One example is the cluster of interested participants at this forum. By not differentiating, we do not feel anger or hatred, but we replace it with love. We do not feel alienated and rejected in a competitive and fearful world, but instead we feel comradship and unity with others. We do not feel that we are unique in our isolated little corner of the world, but rather we understand the universality and transcendence of our path that leads from everywhere to a higher level of everywhere. We do not feel disgust and resistance to the work of expressing positive values, but we embrace the opportunity because, among other things, it's fun.

Given these ideas, you can easily see that the American troops who choose to enlist in the war are those who feel that peace is attainable through war. Those who fight them are similarly certain that by fighting and making war it will be possible to impose peace. Both sides have chosen their world, and both suffer - albeit cooperatively.

An example of karma - the Israeli's were previously under a British Mandate. They objected to this. The resorted to terrorism and planted a number of bombs in the King David Hotel where the British seat of government was lodged. They blew up the hotel, killed lots of people, and also got the British to leave. But the Palestinians saw how effective this was so they copied their esteemed neighbors, and are still doing it, with suicide bombers and by shooting rockets, Neither side is going to win. Both sides will lose. They were individually better off under the British rule, although politically disenfranchised. They gave up personal peace in favor of social change through strife, a choice.

The way out of this is to stop engaging in negative activities. Like holding a tiger's tail, this has to be done with great care and only by degrees that allow everything to remain stable. Those who stop engaging in negative activities stop creating negative karma and cease to have negative experiences, even though surrounded by all manner of ungodly chaos. The state of freedom from negative activities is called "satchitananda" by Buddhists and Hindus, and is the basic state of mature participation in the world.  It is available to everyone, and, in fact, most of the people on this forum live in this state to a very large degree.

These ideas are radically unpopular in many circles. They initially were promulgated by the beatnicks and hippies from the late '40s through the '70s. LSD emphasized the truth of these ideas (usually by sending those who favored negativity to a hellish experience)  and prompted a strong counter-culture that disowned competitive and violent social values and norms and began to replace them with more honest values. The concept "What goes around comes around" entered our society in the '60s. However, even though these are new values to us, there are many small communities throughout the world that live by pro-active positive values as opposed to negatve ones. In essence, these ideas are the source of all revolutions. Civil warfare and the reign of terror that follows it are the reasons that revolutions don't work. Progress only occurs in the aftermath when people realize collectively how terrible things were, and how stupid it was to cause them to be terrible, and how much better to cooperate and create, support and understand one another.

dave
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vajra
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Re: Touchy subject - but great for insight-
Reply #32 - Jan 30th, 2008 at 3:38pm
 
Smiley Nice, and spot on!

As you say Dave it's not easy to roll this stuff out. It'd sad the way that to promote this sort of thinking can generate the most ferocious anger (e.g. you're letting the side down), or in it's being read as weakness leading to attempts to take advantage.

What you're actually doing is promoting a view that conflicts with the power and aggression based values of society - values long since decided by people who think violence can deliver peace.

Overdo it, or be unskillful and you can end up dead or badly damaged, and cause so much trouble.

The sad thing though is that as above if those making decisions and acting at all levels tailor their responses to fit with what the culture demands we end up with a collective version of the ego made goldfish bowl that we all as individuals have to transcend. i.e. Fail to act and nothing changes.

This is why courage is emphasised so much in spiritual traditions.

Culture is an incredibly powerful straightjacket, but luckily as our earlier discussion I guess we can rely on our natural knowing - that all we have to do is to work to drop the ego/raise our consciousness and we will increasingly do right naturally. If you're meant to be doing it you will be...


This perhaps one reason why Buddhism sees wisdom as so closely aligned with compassion in 'prajna' or the higher intuitive wisdom....
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Alan McDougall
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Re: Touchy subject - but great for insight-
Reply #33 - Jan 31st, 2008 at 9:07am
 
Hello Nanna,

Religion and wrong reading of the bible are definite causes, but there is also philosophy.

None if them in my view is the root cause of war etc. It is all about power and pride dear. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

alan    
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Blessings and Light

Alan McDougall
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vajra
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Re: Touchy subject - but great for insight-
Reply #34 - Jan 31st, 2008 at 10:40am
 
I'd tend to take the view of many traditions that war is ultimately rooted in selfishness and/or lack of wisdom - or ego Alan.

I guess power corrupts because those that wield it can't resist using it for personal gain rather than the good of the people who have trusted them with it, or because they unwisely still hold the view that you can make peace or otherwise do good through war.

Another take on the question of awakening and development of insight that's the subject of this thread. Selfish behaviours come out of fear that there's not enough to go around.

Another way of characterising the spiritual path described earlier in the thread is to say that it's a process whereby we first find the courage to break out of the cocoon of our limiting and selective beliefs and perception to face our fears. Having faced the fears we with time go on to develop equanimity - the ability to face previously scary issues without fear. So that eventually with realisation we become fearless....
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