Hi Nanner-
According to my wife, God is very tolerant, and she has no problem with our foolishness and tendency to make up convenient myths to explain our own perversity.

I figure that until we locate the ancient repository of cosmic documents, with the Earth's Building Permit with the Inspectors' seals, and all old secret documents signed with a big red "G", we'll doubtless get it all wrong anyway, so who cares? Meanwhile we can invent new and improved religions so as to blunt the lessons of karma.

God has arranged all this very carefully, so that the ecclesiastical leadership can dump all manner of superstitious garbage into the heads of the multitudes. That's job security for us therapists who can spend our time trying to repair the rationalizations of the public who can't seem to reconcile their fantasies and experiences.

One of my favorite myths is the Jesus was born and lived with the specific intention of being put to death in an especially horrible manner. The churchmen are elated to tell us, "Jesus died for our sins." That's such a tricky way to handle the preposition "for", with its alternative meanings. My interpretation is more like "Jesus died because of our sinful intolerance."  (And we're bloody well responmsible.) The manner in which the responsibility for crucifixion of this just man has been shifted from us, as a hateful society, to God, who is by the same arguments ultimately responsible for everything nasty and evil, never fails to boggle my little mind.

In my life, Nanner, which is certainly no more than barely marginal in morality, the greatest thing I had to face was that I am either directly, or by my nature indirectly, one of those cruel people who either was in the screaming crowds seeking blood, or I might have held the whips, driven the nails, or mocked him as he died. To accept that in myself changed my attitude greatly.

I don't think that we're ready to accept our own nature as yet. There are some in-built conflicts. Fortunately, we're able to send off our sons and daughters to fight our battles. So by sacrificing some of them to Moloch, and when the rest return home, to Mammon, everything proceeds with status quo.

On a brighter side, now that we have the ability to see the inequities of the system we're supporting, we have the ability to escape it. More than that, we can help others to escape it. There's hope! 

dave

And if that wasnt enough:
I read this:

SO WHO CHANGED YAHUWshua TO "IESUS" AND THEN "JESUS?"

In Greek, the “YA” in AbrAHUW (Paleo-Hebrew) was usually transcribed as iota or “I” and pronounced correctly as “YA.” Greek used the letter H "hoi" as the "AH" sound. The capital case of the Greek letter "heta" is also H and is sometimes "ah," sometimes "ee." ALL OF THE EARLY GREEK SCRIPTURES, UP TO 700 AD, WERE WRITTEN IN CAPITAL GREEK LETTERS called Majuscules (some scholars call them "Uncials" which correctly applies only to Latin manuscripts).

The Vulgate is the Roman Empire Church's Latin redacted and corrupted and only Catholic authorized translation of the Greek and Hebrew scripture started in 325 AD and finished in the early fifth century, 412 AD by Jerome.

The Vulgate was the first to change our Savior's Holy Name from IHY or IU (YAHUW)  to "IESUS." As with any large group, this did not happen overnight. "The love of many" had grown cold among the fringe and "business first" christians. Gradually, the popular generalized "kurios" (Lord) had replaced "YAHUWAH the Savior" among "Romanized christians". Later abbreviations IC, IHS (the Greek "YAHUWshous",  meaning "YAHUWAH Saves") was re-interpreted to mean "IeSus" as it remains today among Catholics and adopted by reformation "christians!" "IeSus" gave rise to "Jesus." The Catholic Church changed the iota hoi "IH" ("YAHUW") to iota heta "IE" (pronounced "YEe") and the "shous" to "Sus" which allowed the Roman Empire's millions of "Sus" (Seus, Zeus) sun-god worshippers to join this new "Holy Roman Universal christianity" without changing their god! "Iesus" means "out of Sus" or "Son of Sus/Zeus!" Your choice is "who do you follow," "Zeus" or YAHUWAH? YAHUWAH IS THE ONE AND ONLY GOD!

Thousands of true YAHUWAHn ChristiYAans steadfastly objected to this "Abomination that desolates" the way of salvation our God made for us. They protested the huge influx of "Sus" worshippers of Rome's new "Universal Catholic Circe (Church)." The minutes of the first "Church Council" 321-325 AD, called the Council of Nicea, states "We will have nothing in common with the YAHUWAHns who killed our Dominus." They made it a death penalty to worship on the Sabbath. Being the 4th Commandment, this gave reason to slaughter the YAHUWAHns who would not change.

They outlawed the worship of YAHUWAH. At first, Constantine had allowed "religious freedom" but when the Catholic Circe (Church) failed to attract the majority of Roman subjects, it was made mandatory to join the Circe (Church). By the way, Circe (Church) means- sorcery, seanc'e, and/or circus. Shocking, huh? The few remaining YAHUWAHns again refused to join the Circe/Church! They were rewarded with a martyrs death. Based upon the catacombs of Rome alone, over 2 million YAHUWAHns were slaughtered in the first years of "the Catholic Circe/Church!"

SUMMARY OF EVIDENCE FOR YAHUWAH AS OUR GOD IN SCRIPTURE

1) No true scholar debates that "Joshua's" true name in the Hebrew is "YAHUWshua". This is because "YAHUW" is well established by dozens of theophonic Scriptural words like "Hallel U YAH", YAHUWdAH, Abr AH am, "YAHkob", YAHUWseph, Yer U shalom, YeshaYAHUW, YermeYAHUW, ZackerYAHUW, MatithYAHUW, YAHUWcanon, Da UW d (David) and many others, most of which are corrupted and given sign names in English, for example, the YAH(UW) to "iah." The Massoretes also vowel pointed all of them correctly unless they began with YAHUW (as "YAHUWshua" in which they systematically changed them all to "Yeho"). However, remember, the Mishnah (the numerous burdensome oral laws from the Pharisees, "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees"), which they followed rigorously, commanded them to veil God's "Sacra Nomina," as indeed, their Rabbinical successors continue to do today.

However, the corruption of the Massoretes and Rabbi's did not have much influence in the Semitic world where the old pre-New Testament AbrAHUW (YAHUWdAH, YAHUWAHns, sn-Hebrews) had traveled for 1500 years before them! These Biblical theophonic (words that have parts of YAHUWAH's name in them, used as a message) words are still widely used in over 500 Semitic languages today by millions of people, all heavily infiltrated with 3,000 years of YAHUWdAH diaspora (the scattered AbrAHUW speaking YAHUWAHns)! Even the Koran (Quran) reflects many theophonic words. (Mohammad joined a synagogue and practiced "Yudaism" in his early years! What a pity he did not meet a YAHUWAHn. However, still, the Koran (Quran) teaches that the "one hundredth" Name of God, which is yet to be revealed to them, is the saving Eternal Name of God and will be revealed only in the "Latter Days!" The Quran also teaches that the TorAH (the five books of MoshAH), the Nabii (the Prophets) and the "Injil" (the Gospels as properly translated or in their originals) are all from God and should be read by all peoples, especially all Muslims!

To argue against the hundreds of Scriptural theophonic names and words, you would have to assert that somehow millions of semitic people separated by thousands of miles in hundreds of different languages and cultures, intertwined with ancient diaspora Jews, by some "really incredible fluke," all changed the original "Yeho" names to the now false YAHUW names they use today! If you can believe this, I want to sell you some of my palaces on the moon!

2) The Greek translation of the AbrAHYAHUW (HebreW) Books of MoshAH, called the Septuagint, written in 250-150 BC, translates "YAHUWshua" as "IHSOYS." Most modern scholars think the Greeks were incapable of saying "YAHUWshous," which would be exactly the Greek equivalent (as discussed above) and somehow were forced to say "EEZus." They ignore the early Greek texts which universally write the Savior's name as IHY, IH, IU, IC and a few later ones as IHS, all of which are abbreviations for IHYH or IHsoys which is the phonetic transliteration of "YAHUWAH" and "YAHUWshus". Obviously, IH. IU and IHY in the Greek texts mean "YAHUW." In most early Greek texts, like P-45, P-46, P-72, P-77, Codex Sinaticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Alexandricus and the Ephraemi pamlimpset, the "SOYS' is left off because of three main reasons.

a) Every YAHUWAHn ChristYAn believer knew it was the AbrAHUW (gk-EbrAHisti) word for Savior, Saves, and Salvation and was not part of the eternal salvific Holy Name of YAHUWAH the King.

b) It also had the "PRIMARY" meaning expressed in Acts 2:36, "this YAHUWshua, whom you crucified, God has made him both YAHUWAH and ChristUW (King)." YAHUWshua the incarnated prophet was also YAHUWAH Himself as a human form!

c) One of the most important reasons "SOYS" is not placed in our Savior's name in the original Greek New Testament is because of the possible intentional corruption of associating our Savior with the popular god "Sus" (as in Ephe-Sus, also spelled Seus, Zeus)! This of course is exaclty what the Holy Roman Universal Empire (Catholic) did in 321 AD and continue to do until this very day!

IMPORTANT NOTE: The Greek "SOYS" never occurs in any of the early original manuscripts of the New Testament as a name for our Savior!!!

Our primary modern scholars fear going against the current popular "Circe" (Church) tradition and telling you the truth. They want you to keep "supporting the church" which in turn encourages you to buy their corrupt "Catholic/Protestant Bibles." Therefore, you must see this for yourself! If our English "IAH" as in IsaIAH, JeremIAH, ZackerIAH and HalleluIA all come through the Greek for the original Hebrew "YAH," why do they translate the same Greek letters (IH) for the Savior's Name as "Je" (for "Jesus")? Why don't we sing "AHleleu-JEa"?

It is very obvious they are bowing to popular, traditional or economic pressure rather than using their normal excellent translation skills! If they can trace early English Hallel U IAH through Greek to the Hebrew correctly, they can easily get YAHUWshua (instead of "JeZus") and YAHUWAH (instead of "Jehovah" "Yehweh" or "YAHweh"). All the Hebrew letters and phonics are the same! The other 240 theophonic Scriptural names and places are pure overkill! There really should not even be debate on this among true scholars!

3) As if we need any more overkill, we also have a basic repeat of the above in Early Assyrian, Coptic, Syriac, Arabic, Byzantine, Alexandrian, Korinthian, Mystran and Western Greek pre-Vulgate manuscripts!

4) The horrible history of the Catholic Church!

Obviously, Jerome and the "Holy Roman Empire" did not understand the Holiness of God's or the Saviors's name. Secondly, they simply wanted to wrestle any remnant authority away from residual pockets of true "YAHUWAHn believer's who still called upon His Name, challenging the authority of the "holy Roman Empire." Finally and most demonic, one third of the Roman Empire under Constantine worshipped the old Greek Supreme god Sus (Seus, Zeus). "Ie Sus" means in both Greek and Latin "Son of Sus!" Constantine was a devoted sun-god worshipper (Sus being the most popular name among sun-god worshippers) for 30 years after declaring "Christianity" the Empire's "universal" religion! He, in conspiracy with corrupt "Bishops," changed our Savior's Eternal Name to the pagan name "son of Sus (IeSus, which 1,200 years later became Jesus)."

No doubt, God's YAHUWAHn remnant down through history has been made up of individualist thinkers and people of courage! It took real committment to go up against the entire Roman empire both before the Great Corruption of the fourth century and even more afterwards when you were threatened with death by the Roman politicians, the Roman Church and after 638 AD, the sword of the Muslims! Millions died at the stake for holding fast to their "YAHUWAHn Faith!" We look forward to meeting these great warriors in the coming Kingdom!

A few "Qahals" (Covenant-families of YAHUWAHns) survived, but most were martyred by Catholic death squads as heretics. Occasionally a brilliant passion for God and His Word would spring forth in the centuries following, but it appears most were martyred quickly. Then the Holy Spirit of YAHUWAH broke the first 1,290 years of The Great Tribulation with the preaching of the Oxford professor John Wycliff and his "Lollards." They would stand on street corners of London and other English cities and towns, reading Wycliff's english translation of the Catholic Vulgate (which was evidently all he had).

Between 412-1777 AD, the Catholic Church prohibited by death the translation of the Latin Vulgate into any language of the people, especially the increasingly freedom loving English and Scottish! Then a great YAHUWAHn Eagle arose among the Dutch named Johan AHlen. He found a Majority Text Greek New Testament and became a YAHUWAHn. He was soon martyred by "the Church," but his faith greatly impressed another young man name Valla. Valla collected several Greek manuscripts and himself became a full YAHUWAHn. The church arrested him also and burned him alive. Valla's half-disciple was a man named Erasmus, who changed the course of history for the next five hundred years by changing the Greek New Testament YAHUWshua to the Catholic Vulgate Iesu and Iesus. By doing this, the church let him live, but Erasmus' corrupted text led all the Protestant Reformers astray, keeping the Catholic "Iesus."

Whereas the printing of the translated Vulgate and Erasmus Scriptures in 1480-1600 AD gave rise to the great Reformation of the 1500's, YAHUWAH's true path of salvation was again buried in the Original Scriptures waiting for a later day when truth doers would seek this Holy Word "with all their heart." This would finally throw off the Great Tribulation of Daniel 12 and MatithYAHUW 24. Although the "Great Corruption," already 1200 years old at the time of the Reformation, was deeply embedded, the Reformers blazed away at the more obvious corruptions of the "Holy Roman Church," like buying forgiveness of sin by purchasing "indulgences" from the church and "salvation is only in the Catholic Church!"

The Catholic Church was losing thousands as the Protestant preachers correctly branded them "The Anti-Christ" and the "Beast of Mystery Babylon" in Rev 12 & 13. This was the Beast that revived the gods of ancient Babylon having "blasphemous names upon her head" (Rev 12 & 13). The "demonically brilliant" Jesuit priest Ribera in the Council of Trent (1545) came up with a new theory of "the Rapture of the Church" in the end times. Since that "rapture obviously had not taken place, the Catholic Church could not be the Beast of Rev 12 & 13 or the Anti-Christ. The amazing part is that from the publishing of the Scofield Bible in the early 1900's, most Protestant preachers have bought Ribera's diversion! 

The Council of Trent in 1545 led to the rise of "The Jesuits" who vowed to defend the Pope with their very lives. They revived "The Inquistions" which burned at least 70,000 innocent truth loving believers at the stake and slaughtered hundreds of thousands more on the battlefields. In some areas, only 25% of evangelical pacifists like the Anabaptist and Menonites survived the genocide of Catholics and State Church "Protestants." However, out of this reform came a multitude of Biblically based reforms continuing even today. Most of our modern denominations were begun by spiritual pioneers "trying" to return to scriptural truth. Yet most of them, with over 42,000 "christian" denominations now, would be horrified how their successors have used their work to divide God's people today even more and to foster more violence.

I am still in awe of what I am reading, simply because they back it up with pictures of the scrolls from the dead sea, as well as other scrolls with were translated by non-biased people not belonging to a denominational direction. (at the time) ..

Most of the earliest Greek texts write the Savior's Name as IHY (iota, hoi, upsilon, "YAHUW" which always means "YAHUWAH"). Of course, all of us were taught it was "Jesus"! None of the earliest 3700 ancient Greek texts of Holy Scripture say "Jesus" but that does not mean you did not encounter YAHUWAH the Savior!  Most of the earliest, like the Chester Beatty Papri now in Ireland, simply write the Savior's name as IHY  (YHU). Some write His name IH, IHYS , IHSOYS or just H. It is possible, according to later Greek scholars,  that IHY could have been pronounced "YeHU", as indeed the Massoretes five hundred years later passionately tried to do for 1000 years (and largely succeeded) in their well documented camouflage campaign by changing the true name of the "Jews" from YAHUWdAH to "YehUWdAH". However, this pronunciation was obviously impossible when those same Hebrews and Greeks in PetUWr's pentecost audience were almost daily saying "Ahlelu YAH" ("praise You YAH"). Every one of the YAHUWdaios (the common man around Christ) knew YAH. Nobody called God "Jeho"! Not once in all 28,000 ancient Greek texts does "Ahlelu Yeho" occur, as would be the case if "Jehovah" were correct!

Watch the interchangabliity of the Name of the Father and YAHUW(soUW) in the Scriptures, showing that the early believer's both equated them but actually inserted "ChristUW" to distinguish them apart!.

Q: SO WHAT ABOUT THE NAME "JEHOVAH"?

A: Following the Catholic hybrid "Iehovah", which came from ignorantly inserting the Massoretic (Yehudi rabbis and scribes 450-1400 AD) vowel pointing  for "Elohim or Adonai", inserted in the Hebrew scriptures 500-1000 years after Christ "e,o,a" into IHVH, William Tyndale copied the Catholic translation into English IHVH as “Iehovah” in eight verses in 1530 AD. There was alot of protest that He was adding to the scriptures but gradually folks got use to saying "Eehouah" spelled "Iehovah". 1500 AD England had rarely heard anything but "Lord" (Adonai) for God's name, much like today. So Tyndale's later printed copies put the English “LORD” back in place of _ hwhy _ the other 6820 times in the Chumash (Pentetuch or first five Books of Moses) and “Old” Testament. “Lord” was substituted for YAHUWAH probably about 1800 times in the “New” Testament. The latter Greek texts blurr this distinction. Again, we have seen the example, Kepha quotes YAH-el (Joel) 2:32 in Acts 2:21. In the Hebrew it reads literally   “Whoever calls upon the Name of YAHUWAH will be saved”. The Latter Greek Church, at least 120 years (but probably 220 years) after Christ changed it in Acts 2 to read “Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord (“Kurios”) will be saved”! No doubt the Church continued to wrestle with new Jewish and Gentile converts who had been taught the "ineffable name" (too sacred to say) teachings of the Talmud and Jewish High Priests. As today, a "generic" title like "Kurios" was readily acceptable to most Greek speakers. As today in Greece, "kurios" is used as a polite greeting title for any half decent man! It is certainly not a unique title unless it is refering to God as our "Master".

Again, in the Septuagint, the Egyptian Magical Papyri, the Greek poets and writers,  “Baal” was normally translated as “Kurios” in Greek as well! Most Believers today have used “Lord” so much it feels sacrilegious not to say “Lord”. That is just what Satan wants. “Lord” is even today used for thousands of regular men as well as idols and other gods. (Remember George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" song, speaking of "Lord Krishna!)

.....

So I began looking for
dead sea scrolls taking a good look at the written/drawn sections - began looking up "that name" to see whats it all about and cross referenced their info in regards to todays world and things we all say about the afterlife. Hmmmmm - I bet alot of people are mad at me now..


There is an order in the universe and it always had a name!

http://www.yahuwah.org/ is where I found some of the info

But I`ll tell them - I love ya anyway!
Nanner

I'll say this:

A person shouldn't be afraid to question the Bible.  If people are free to misinterpret God's way today, why wouldn't they be free to misinterpret God's way when people responsible for the word's of the Bible lived?

For years I thought I was free of not being able to question the Bible, until a day came along where I found that I still had an aspect of mind in place that was afraid to question it.  This aspect thought in terms of: "If I question it, I'll be doomed and sent to hell for all of eternity."

What helped me get over this aspect was realizing that if I'm smart and loving enough to realize that concepts such as eternal damnation and a rathful, angry and jealous God don't make sense, then so are spirit beings such as God, who live completely according to love and divine wisdom.

When it came to the truth of Christ, I realized that I didn't know the answers and never would figure them out through a book based search, and opened myself to finding out through spiritual means that Christ is a big part of humanity's divine reality. I can't say specifically how, but I feel confident that he is here to help people who ask for his help, because he has helped me and he has helped others. I also feel confident that his manner of being is beyond a dogmatic, fundamentalist, distator like way of being.

Regarding his dying for our sins, I look at it this way, perhaps I'm wrong.  Part of Jesus' fame is due to the fact that he was nailed to a cross and came to life again. Partly because of this, many, many people have considered him to be a source of spiritual leadership. They chose a path of goodness, rather than a path of darkness. Therefore, they avoided sin.  I know that many people choose a path of goodness without being Christian, but this doesn't negate the fact that many people have chosen a path of goodness and avoided sin because of their faith in Christ.

Even Christians who "haven't" lived according to his commandment of love your neighbor as yourself, have benefited after they died, because they remembered to call out for his help.

Consider Bruce's story of Sylvia from Voyage of Curiosity's father. Bruce was suprised to see that she became a light being so quickly, since she was an abusive person while alive. Fortunately, after she died, because of her belief in Christ, she called out for help and received it.

The same thing happened for Howard Storm during his near death experience. Before he had the experience he wasn't a nice man. He ended up in a lower realm.  But then he remembered about Christ, asked for help, and received it.

I believe the key is that regardless of what people do during their life, if after they die they realize they made a mistake and chose to live according to love and divine will rather than darkness, they'll receive the help they need.

Overall, I believe that if a person decides to live according to love, then he or she will be okay regardless of what religion he or she follows.  CERTAINLY, the divine powers that be understand why we get involved with all kinds of belief systems.

Well said Recoverer - so there is truth in all the translations of the scriptures "obviously left for mankind to find"? Had the misleading translations into Vugate ergo then english had the purpose to create such havoc, as we find fighting up against today? Maybe to prepare the living soul to "understand the transition" which is about to happen?

Were the prophets then actually what we call "mysticos" today,

I guess it's not all that long Nanner since you'd have been burned at the stake for seriously doing so. And I think the resulting behaviours (which have been enforced for many centuries) eventually became cultural values which until very recently were taboo as well.

Robert Pirsig's book 'Lila' is about as interesting and clarifying a book as I can think of on the way this stuff works - actually to block societal progress through the resulting stasis.

The magic though is that those intent on manipulating translations to suit the agenda of the hierarchy as a result of the consequent tunnel vision concentrate only on one view. And as a result inadvertently left all sorts of truths in there as R says unnoticed at the time - but oh so meaningful to a different mind thinking in a more holistic and  esoteric vein...