Instead of making the Life & Afterlife thread overly long, I thought it best to address some of the issues and the member's responses with threads appropriate to their replies. __ Desert

_____________________________


Alysia

Let's talk about pure, unconditional love.

Here's a little story about it, very true and very lived by myself:

I met "R" over a decade ago while working as a cabdriver and still living in the Los Angeles area. When I saw her for the very first time there was something familiar about her but in actuality I had never met her anywhere else before. R's profession was that of an exotic dancer or what some would shorten to 'stripper'. Yes, she was a beautiful looking girl and with a petite body but one that made both men and women look at her whenever she walked into a room or even walking down the street. She had a strange charisma and I don't say that just because of her looks, there was definitely a different energy riding with this girl, something that went beyond the material.

Now, during my time as a cabdriver I of course met with other cabdrivers and some of them had this notion about their cabs being like their own little lounge where anything was fair game in terms of young, attractive women picked up as fares. No, they didn't go overboard to the point where legal action could be brought against them but from what they related and what I heard from passengers themselves along the way was that some drivers could be annoying to be with. Being a cabdriver is almost at times being like a psychologist on wheels, I guess with some drivers the 'wheels' got a hold of them and they progressively neglected brake jobs along the way.

But with myself it was a little different, the cab to me was a place of work and the people riding it were paying for transit and a relative measure of social comfort from point A to point B. I provided that and over a period of time had regulars who appreciated my comportment.

When I saw R for the first time her beauty and the "magnetics" of the moment didn't faze me to where all of a sudden the lounge cab theory seemed like not such a bad idea. I kept my cool and of course regarded her as another human being who deserved respect along with all the others. Though I must admit that not many others were pushing my heterosexual buttons like she was on that first meeting.

I dropped her off from that first ride and she asked if I could pick her up tomorrow at a particular time. As a driver one never knows where they will be so I told her to call the office at that time and see if I was available. Sure enough the next day I get a call from dispatch informing me that R needs a ride and was asking for me. I go over and for the next couple of days I take her here and there sometimes I waited other times I dropped her off and there would be another call from the dispatcher later on.

Around the third day of this I am surprised by her asking me out to dinner as were riding. I sat quietly for a moment, I hadn't been with a woman - not even on a dinner date - for nearly two years. And even though most guys would jump the light with a response on this I weighed the pros and cons of it. I told myself, why not? I told her yes, that would be nice.

We went to a Japanese restaurant, nice meal and some nice conversation. I drove her to her apartment, walked her to the door and was getting ready to leave when she invites me in. Well, it wasn't long before the two of us were doing a lip tango. It would have been very   easy and she was more than receptive to go all the way that evening but there was still a little of the old fashioned gentleman in me and I restrained it; I think she even found that charming. Yet, there was enough heat generated that evening to know that something was about to begin for the both of us together. 

After a couple of hours of tenderness she stood in front of me, the TV behind her was on low volume playing some old movie from the Forties. She looked at me for a moment quietly and then said:

"By the way, you do know I do heroin?” . . .

I thought to myself, well, no, I didn't know. But immediately a part of me understood it as an explanation for what I had come to know as her late night habits, which initially she passed off as insomnia or just being a night person. But heroin? That's a different ballgame and way beyond the bleachers.

Now, I have never done heroin and to this day have absolutely no need for it in my life. Considering all that has been attached to it one would think that the course of action would be a quick yet graceful exit from the situation. A little red flag went up in my consciousness, I recognized it and by the end of this story I tell here it serves a purpose.

I simply nodded to her and though I didn't come right out and say that I approved - which I didn't - there was a strange calm over the revelation and in the next few moments of getting over that hurdle we both knew that from that moment on we were together. She came over to the chair I was sitting in, sat on my lap and she said it was nice to be with someone who understood. Did I understand? A part of me did and a part of me didn't. Those two parts did a little dance of their own over the next nine months.

Eventually she moved in with me but with time she wasn't actually staying there all the time. Any other man would have probably have shown her the door on her first outing but I knew that she really didn't have anywhere to go, at least anywhere where she felt safe. When she was with me she would talk about her upbringing, how she lost her daughter to her mother who took the child from R because of R's ways and never again got to see the child. In short, R’s mother kidnapped the daughter and last I heard they were somewhere up in Canada. But R would also tell me about her mother and the best that can be said is that mom seems to have had a dark side all of her own. Needless to say, the picture that materialized was not of a 1950's TV family. Suffice it to say that R relates how one evening she spied her mom and dad - and another couple - in the bedroom. They were not playing Scrabble.

R did try to kick the habit and to that end she went to a free clinic for users for help. But the glitch there was that in order for her to receive attention she had to prove that she was on heroin. So what does she request of me? That I go along with her to help her score some of it.  She says I don't have to do anything, to just wait in the car as she walks down the street and meets up with some individual who would rather see her unaccompanied. But I was doing something, I was helping her to score heroin and even though it was so she could get treatment it still had plenty of danger to it. She scores it and of course I breathed more than one sigh of relief afterwards.

She went back to the clinic and started to get treatments. But that only lasted for a while. She started getting jobs in clubs and on a couple of occasions I went to see her. When I saw her dance and for the most part covered up in a two-piece, she was very good at it. I could see that if she had just taken a different turn somewhere on her road she could have easily made a profession of it in circles other than strip nightclubs. Her timing was wonderful and when she danced in tandem with another girl her synchronization and enjoyment of it made the other girl dance better. I remember one evening her telling me how she knew she was good at it as she stared off into the distance. I agreed with her and silently I hoped that if not in dancing then at least in some other form she would find other things where that energy could find expression without the complications that now surrounded her.

For months it was what I would call a roller coaster ride in the rain on rusted tracks but even amid that there were moments that seemed to transcend into the unexplainable:

Taking her for a trip into the mountains and watching her pick flowers like a little girl, scampering out of view when she heard a car coming so no one would see her picking the flowers and laughing giddily as if she were getting away with something naughty.

Going to the museum and myself discovering later on that her trip to the bathroom did wonders for enhancing her artistic appreciation of the paintings and statues.

One night she brings over one of the other dancers, a statuesque black woman and next thing I know R is unbuttoning my shirt while the other woman is massaging my shoulders while we're all sitting on the bed. Me looking at here while this is happening, shaking my head and telling her in a soft voice that this is not what it's about. It was my way of telling her that I loved her, that I really didn't need this. Go figure, two beautiful women ready to do a stereophonic hokey-pokey with me and all I can do is think about my love for her. Some guys would shake their head at this but quite frankly I don't give a canary's ass what some guys think about it.

Seeing her at the strip club once and as she's doing her thing on the pole with her legs wrapped around it she slides and thuds to the floor. The look on her expression was one of disbelief that it happened and she laughed quickly and looked over me sticking out her tongue like a little girl in defiance. Funny.

One time I decided to get high with her - but not on heroin. In the late sixties and early seventies I had done my share of smoking "herb" and I knew that for some hard drug users smoking a little bit of it helped with a different perspective, and in some cases even a weaning away from the harder stuff. So we lit up and she was agreeable and smiled and laughed with an easiness I had not seen before. I read some passages from Confessions of An Opium Eater and she laughed at some of the things in it. For those few moments with her, for that ease which we communicated and for that softness about her I wished it could have been this way all the time - but I knew better.

One day I pick her up in the cab and what should greet me but R looking like a little schoolgirl complete with the plaid skirt. We sat in a parking lot near the street and she hops on my lap laughing and kissing me, of course I kissed in return but I couldn't help but wonder what passerbys must have thought of some guy in his late forties in a cab with what looked like a schoolgirl on his lap.

Having her call me one time after a few days of being away and she's almost crying and anxious asking if I could pick her up. I do so and we park in the parking lot of a city park. She begins telling me a tale of her and being interrogated by detectives in connection with something. She's scared and is disheveled by her ordeal.

Going to Las Vegas once to see relatives of mine - who by the way didn't know of her needs.  While there dealing with her shaking at night from withdrawals and on the drive back for every minute of the way she was acting belligerent and turning up the tension for both of us. We get home and even as we're lying in bed getting ready to go to sleep she still continues with her harangue. Then, she looks at me in silence for a moment and next thing we know this uncontrollable force draws us together and we have some of the best sex ever, wonderful and deeply satisfying. But the next morning I wondered to myself soberly if I was ready to put up with that kind of agonizing foreplay in order for such a delicious release. It was tempting but I knew there had to be better ways than that. Burning the candle at both ends is one thing, throwing the candle into a lava stream is another.

Holding her one night in my arms after she had drank too much and she was passing out into sleep. Crying and telling her that it was painful to see her going through this and how much I cared for her. But I doubt she heard me as she drifted away. The next morning she said I had saver her life.

One night she decided to take a tub bath and I could hear her from the bathroom. She was humming and singing tunes, you could hear the water sloshing around. But after what seemed like too long I stood by the door outside and asked why she was taking so long. I go in. There she was in the tub looking up at me with an eerie smile and floating in the water around her a strap and a syringe. I quickly removed the objects then got her up from the tub. She could hardly stand. With one hand I held her as I bent down to get a towel that had fallen from the rack. In that moment time froze, I looked up at her. Her naked body had an ashen cast to it, her gaze was at me but it was somewhere else. At that moment the beauty had shown me the other side completely. For the next couple of hours I did everything to revive her, keep her warm, and keep her alive. The next morning she thanked me for saving her life, twice, and went on about the Chinese idea about that and what it meant.

She left again and eventually got involved with some gang types while working at a club near San Pedro. She called me to let me know. I decided to go see her at the club. I stood by the door and saw her dancing for the crowd of men sitting in the dark. She had dark makeup on, black eyeliner. For a moment she saw me standing there by the door. She smiled but her eyes, her being seemed somewhere else. I thought to myself about the men there who were watching her and having their little fantasies. I wondered how they would have felt if they saw her like I did that night when I pulled her out of the tub. I waited outside, wanted to talk with her and tell her that it's time we come to an end completely on this. I waited and apparently someone alerted the gang types that I was out there. Some of them come out to the car and one of them asks me what I want. I tell him I want to talk to their boss. A guy in his twenties, wearing black clothing and a thin moustache walks slowly toward the car; a few others surround the car. I surprise him by speaking in Spanish:

"Tell me, don't you think that someone who's saved someone's life twice is entitled to have some last words with her?"

He looked at me with a serious expression and then slowly nodded his head. "Si, mano" he replied and walked toward his car. Within a minute R walked over. I looked at her and told in question form that I thought we were at least friends. She looked at me and strangely asked why did I have to be so conclusive about it. A strange reply but by now I had come to understand some of R's replies. She walked back to the other car. The gang members dispersed and I could tell by the look on one of the guy's face that he would have preferred popping a few caps in my direction. Yes, they all seemed like they were carrying some hardware.

It began raining and I slowly drove back through the dark streets of the port town. My eyes welled up. No sound except the pouring rain and windshield wipers making for a final, strange metronome. It was the last act.

After a couple of weeks she called and asked if she could stay a few days, that she was working out living arrangements with someone else. I said yes but I think she already knew that the yes did not mean the same as all the other times I said yes. That night she lay next to me in bed, back turned toward me, I could see her staring again off into the distance. She propped herself up and said to me that she was sorry for everything she put me through; she wanted me to really know that. She lay back down and said nothing else and continued her gaze. For a moment I saw the little girl again, soft and also afraid of the world around her. I stroked her hair, lay down next to her and put my arm around her. We fell asleep.

For the next week she was finalizing things with her situation and one day told me how she had found someone, she really felt something for him and she felt that it was a good start to get her on the right track and off the habits that were so destructive. I listened and told her that I would not stand in her way and that I wished her the best with it. She looked at me and after a moment she said that I must really love her a lot to say and feel that and for a moment it sounded as if she was almost hoping that I would say something else, something that would maybe bring us together again. But no, there was nothing from me with that in mind. I was sincere in hoping that she would find a better life, I truly desired that for her. But I also desired something for myself.

She left and the next time I saw her was a couple of weeks later at a health food store - a good sign if anything. She said to me "Hi, stranger", with a smile. She seemed upbeat. I asked her how things were going and she said that it was working out. It wasn't a long conversation. I wished her well and as I walked away I turned and could see her looking at me, her expression was a little on the sad side, she knew that I wouldn't be there anymore. That was the last time I saw or heard from R.

__________________________

Pure, unconditional love. That's what I walked away with from that epic of nine months. There had been previous times in my life when it could be said that there was unconditional love between me and another but this time around there was a heavy price to pay for the lesson. This one you couldn't "armchair" and spin all manner of philosophies about it. It was right up front, in your face, in your gut, in your heart.

I was not the type of person that would have accepted to become involved with someone in those circumstances, much less with someone who was using heroin; no one, no matter how beautiful and alluring was worth going through all of that. But involved I did get 
and the involvement seemed to be something that I really had no control over. This seemed an involvement that was somehow destined, something with connections to somewhere else.

There were times during this that I remember strange images springing up from somewhere. My chest being opened up and a waterfall roaring in on it; strange buzzing noises that gave me the feeling that something was mad at me, that I was interfering somehow by being with R.; strange coincidences and symbols popping up here and there, too many to write about here.

One of them being something I discovered one day while sitting behind R. I hadn't noticed it before but then I saw it in full daylight. On R's right ear, resting near the top ridge was a beauty mark. I pointed it out to her and said that was really strange. I have the same exact beauty mark in the same position on my right ear. Same shape, same color. I showed her, her eyes widened then she turned away, didn't say anything at all about it. But I could "see" her thinking about it, and the feeling that permeated that moment was something profound yet silent.

Remember the little red flag? Well, after all was said and done I realized that little flag planted itself in the territory of my subconscious or perhaps even unconscious dimensions. It was a safeguard of sorts, even when I was walking around in the darkest of places it was there flapping in the distance, reminding me whether I knew it or not. It let me get involved but never to a depth where I couldn't resurface.

R one time chided me about "hippie girls". She knew that on occasion I would mention that a simple, flower-wearing hippie girl was the type of girl that I found charming and I nudged R that it would be a little more "normal". R said that all of that might be true but that she, R, made for better "copy" in the sense that a journalist would use it. R, wherever you may be, and I truly hope it's a loving and safe place, you're right, in fact you made for sensational copy. 

I don't carry a torch for R; I really don't carry a torch for anyone. But from her I did learn something about love that maybe an easier relationship would not have revealed. Did I know R in a previous life? Will there be an afterlife where R and I meet up again and the next round an exquisite expression of the better side of it? Were connections there or were made that continue after the temporal body fades away? Was it just nothing more than a coincidence of beauty marks? I guess the beyond will answer all of this. 

Was it pure, unconditional love? I can answer that: Yes, for me it most certainly was learning about that kind of love. For R? I know she won't forget me. Like me she won't be carrying a torch, but she won't forget the light. 

All in all, maybe it’s like I once said elsewhere that, “to truly appreciate silk one must feel the burn of rope uncontrolled”.

________________________

So, Alysia, is the flower that has been illustrated here unconditional enough even amid the dark jungle where it bloomed?


Desert

Thanks for sharing your story, desert. You write so well.

This story reminds me a little bit of a movie I saw called Guinevere. An older man, an artist, takes a young woman for his lover. He is her teacher. After a time, he lets her drift away, after teaching her as much as he can of what he knows. He teaches her to love to read, and he teaches her how to see. He encourages her to create.

Later, he dies, and 4 or 5 of his former lovers meet him, one by one, on his deathbed. He moves through a hallway in a vision, seeing each of these former lovers at a separate doorway as he dies. As he sees his final lover, "Guinevere" (a nickname), she says to him, "I loved you best."

I don't know if I told this well, but I do see your story, desert, as a true story of unconditional love.

Those we love the best we must let go....and later, sometimes much later, we may find them again.

love, blink

LaffingRain

I do not see it as singling you out, that was not the intent at all. Basically, I addressed it to you since you had mentioned the following in Life & Afterlife:

From my studies and experiences I would say yes to both the allowance of love and the reception of love energy, we call it PUL here, for pure, unconditional love, is more readily apparent in the general atmosphere after rising above the first layer, the lower astral area, and this is more or less automatic to evolve past the lower layer where a shedding of negative build up is to take place, which we tend to collect a lot of baggage here, we needn't fear the process of "letting it all go."

You were the first one to mention "PUL"- along with being the first person responding to my post - and it reminded me of this event in my life and how I felt that it exemplified what I felt was a lesson in unconditional love. I could have easily said: I knew a woman - She was a heroin user - I loved her but it was an arduous relationship - We parted and I learned a lot. But such abbreviation doesn't really have the substance and depth that is possible with an illustration of the details.  The true story is presented in earnestness and seriousness so that those reading it can "feel" something of the circumstances and atmosphere. Having a sense of this lends weight to whatever may be said in the aftermath.

Yes, when considering love I can see your points about lower astral areas and the shedding of negative buildup. But for all human beings there is that immediacy before all other speculations about positioning in 'areas' of whatever character.  In the palpable immediacy of human encounter the considerations are not about this area or that metaphysical possibility, the real consideration is the immediate response of the human organism to the stimulus present and in this regard emotions rule the night and day. A mother holds her child for the first time - there are no considerations of the astral there; A man runs down the street eluding pursuers - there are no ponderings on the metaphysical attending the fleeing; A young person whether man or woman experiences their first lovemaking with another - emotion supreme, to say the least; A person experiences the excruciating pain and discomfort of an abscessed tooth - no considerations whatsoever except to end the pain; the list is endless and anyone in their own personal retrospective I think would agree.

Now, in the aftermath of critical human events, then all manner of assessments and speculations are not only possible but almost required in the interest of learning and adjusting for future possibilities. For example, when I lived my experience with R, I was first and foremost living it. Yes, along the way a creative aspect of myself may have thought what an incredible story this would make but if I had set myself in that mode from thereon then it would have been suicidal in terms of experiential primacy. At that point one would no longer be "generating", they would be "tracking". With regard to astral, afterlife and even spiritual concerns, generating and tracking are often extremely and decidedly different. Case in point, you said that my first post seemed to be 'cathartic'. You are quite right; do you think such a post would have been possible from mere tracking?

I wonder if you are here for the same reasons the rest of us are here? to talk of the books, the teachings which are about this website. somehow I think thats not your purpose.

I would not even begin to consider the rest of the members' true reasons for being here, that is simply not my place. I come into this assembly first and foremost as another human being with expressions of what I am and have experienced. The best personal protocol - at least for me -  with such is to honestly state the immediate generating that is happening in my being. That Bruce Moen has done some extensive research on this subject and that he has graciously taken the time to offer this forum as a place to discuss afterlife concerns is certainly laudable. But personally and from the abovementioned aspect of generating I cannot compartmentalize my ponderings about the afterlife on any book any more than I can compartmentalize my feelings about spirituality to solely the Bible. Tracking does have its place as aforementioned and Mr. Moen has certainly done well, but it will never supplant the primacy of personal and direct experience and it is the communication of that primacy that packs the biggest wallop of them all. I am sure Mr. Moen himself understands this all too well.

Anyway, if I have offended your sensibilities in any way then I apologize. I hope what has been said above clarifies why I addressed the post to you and furthermore my position with regard to my purpose, which in fact is not purpose at all, it is more a dance without wondering if the dance fits this or that style.

Tell me, have you ever danced the Tango? Interesting dance, lots of generating, very little tracking.

Cordially

Desert

Interesting tracking and generating concept there Desert. have to think on that one.

Hi Desert,

I feel this other soul mate is a completely different to my now wife. I will be able to have blissful union with both in the afterlife, I think.

“There is no given and taking of marriage in the afterlife and no necessity for it.

alan

Hi Desert. I woke up this morning with you on my mind, and now I know why you had originally addressed your post to me, and I had questioned then what that was about.

I sometimes get information just before I fully awaken. so this is it, take it or leave it, I felt compelled to express it.
The reason I was addressed may be a different reason from your side, but from my side, I was informed it is because I study relationships, all my life, between men and women primarily, to see and understand why they work, or why they don't.

its like my destiny. Also I have studied other people's work concerning relationships.
so it's like spirit put me touch with you, and reminded me this morning you were indeed seeking an answer by placing your story here, you thought you might get one.
I hope I can shed a miniscule bit of light here. keep in mind I may need to express this as much as you might need to hear it. as I am developing myself by learning to listen to what I have heard and trust myself to go with it, if theres a chance another may benefit.

Desert said: (interesting also about the rote attached to a name, within collective definition) Pure, unconditional love. That's what I walked away with from that epic of nine months. There had been previous times in my life when it could be said that there was unconditional love between me and another but this time around there was a heavy price to pay for the lesson.
____
sometimes it takes years to assimilate our experiences in love relationships. in regards to the suffering that love relationships most often produce in all of us, the reasons, speaking personally do not appear to be instantly available, at least not while we carry the regret and the feelings that an injustice has somehow been perpetrated against us. The illusion is contained that an injustice has occurred, therefore we assume, we need to set something right. Actually, if the attitude were changed around, it could also be looked at from the pov that your higher self needed to bring this entire relationship to you simply to open the heart chakra to a greater degree; therefore the gain far exceeds the loss. because now, you have loved truly and done your very best; there is no reason to feel guilt. What I have discovered is as we grow in understanding of love, the person/s we interacted with frequently come back around, years later, either in physical area or in dreamstate; there, forgiveness is completed on both sides and the heavy feelings subside. This is what I meant my assimilation of experience and accepting them for the part they played, however awful it looked at the front. It seems you are mending right now and that more understanding awaits you within your patience.
________

one you couldn't "armchair" and spin all manner of philosophies about it. It was right up front, in your face, in your gut, in your heart.
_____
Some of us have one love, or even two or three loves in a lifetime. it looks like this was one of your most important experiences so far in the love area. all you can do is sit in the energy and feel it, like you say, philosophy is dry. the emotional content sits in your solar plexus like a weight. The weight of it there is a very real physical thing. It must be removed before your soul can fly. Total forgiveness, of yourself, of her, means to release the weight of the feelings, there in the gut, such emotions are connected to your expectations of how it might have been, if only things were "different."
I believe forgiveness is a hard thing to understand, as it must be consciously thought about it as a conscious act and numerous times it must be employed whenever a thought comes up regarding this woman. It's like making a decision.
When forgiveness is truly accomplished, frequently what happens is the other person does feel "released" also. they are then free to contact you in some way to express this PUL, that they have been freed, and that it was you that freed them. Ultimately the pure part of PUL, means it is pure of expectation about another's behavior should be this or that way.
it is accepting them as they are, as god would do that within grace also. for example, PUL people state their preferences but don't care if they don't get them. they continue being in PUL.  as well, I discerned this that you had a preference she dress like a hippy. she preferred to be accepted the way she was. that would be PUL expressing to allow her her own style of dress without her having to explain why she dresses that way.
______

I was not the type of person that would have accepted to become involved with someone in those circumstances, much less with someone who was using heroin;
____
I understand. here you realize subconsciously the risk, yet you took it anyway. you therefore must take responsibility for diving into the relationship despite you had a clue beforehand, this was not going to work. by taking self responsibility for the decisions we make upon first meeting a potential mate, we then take control of our lives, to say we knew exactly what we were getting into and we did it anyway.
therefore nobody is doing it to you and you are a wiser more loving individual now than before.
______

no one, no matter how beautiful and alluring was worth going through all of that. But involved I did get 
____
you are still assimilating and weighing the gain versus the loss. If you release this soul from having to pay you for your loss, you only free yourself and the gain is immense in that act.
______

and the involvement seemed to be something that I really had no control over.
____
seems that you had no control. what you can do to free her and yourself is go back to the very moment in the cab, and examine your thoughts of this person, that is where the control lies. as well you did have some control, as you were the one invited her to call you. you set yourself up, and invited the relationship in that way. so you still have to take complete responsibility for what happens to you when you invite someone into your life, to say "call me." that starts the ball rolling.
_____

This seemed an involvement that was somehow destined, something with connections to somewhere else.
_____
my belief in other life connections may not be acceptable to others, so I won't go into that here, although I will state I believe we do as souls engage each other in other lives, playing one time the lover, the next time a brother, etc. roles include gender changes even, and this is what I mean others cannot fathom, the true essence of our souls is to get to PUL awareness and this produces soul growth, despite we don't like some of these roles we play as OUCH! it hurts.
______

There were times during this that I remember strange images springing up from somewhere. My chest being opened up and a waterfall roaring in on it; strange buzzing noises that gave me the feeling that something was mad at me, that I was interfering somehow by being with R.; strange coincidences and symbols popping up here and there, too many to write about here.
______
this is the part of your discourse which was in my head this morn to try and unravel just a tad. you haven't written much about these strange images, and the waterfall roar, the buzzing noise, the feeling of anger from outside of yourself, the communication that you were interfering with R.
____
this is where you can find a rote. a rote is attached to the word "interfere."
briefly, a rote is a bunch of connected thoughts assigned to the subconscious area and also assigned to the collective unconscious area. Since you yourself chose the word interfere, I can show you how the word unravels for me, but it might unravel differently for you as you sit and do it yourself.

to me to interfere, in any situation, or person's life, their chosen path, means you think you know what's best for them. it may mean you wish their behavior was more to your liking. it may mean you have expectations on them.
having expectations on each other is what an intimate relationship entails.
but it is not PUL to have expectations to change that person into more fitting behavior. PUL was best expressed in your relationship within the tender sharing parts of it. PUL was not active consistently because of the nonacceptance of certain parts of her expression.

understandably, anyone on heroin is really hard to accept if you are not a heroin user yourself, but you knew this, you knew from day one, you would take the risk anyway.
_____

I had a similar relationship. my husband died of alcohol at 42. I lost one who was a fine father to my children. he could have shown them so many things, helped them in their lives. I had two girls by him. they had no father role since they were 12. girls will often choose a man whom resembles their father's character.
even though he was an alcoholic, nonetheless, he had a fine character and much to offer the kids. my kids now don't know how to pick a man. they had no father to tell them what to look for in a man. consequently, from my point of view, Ive been cheated, because they are having relationship difficulties.
Yet I too had to learn to forgive that he was not here, he was my soulmate, he checked out too early. I had to forgive as I had no choice, it was either that, or carry the pain forever. and he was aware I carried this grief like a torch, I fed it with my thoughts.

I can still feel it. these emotions from our love relationships become a part of us and even forgiveness does not erase the tenderness in the gut to think of what could have been.
Yet we get over it by taking the first step to forgive the perceived wrong we see going on here, and we might think that the pain was part of the plan, that he was supposed to check out early, that we had agreed on this plan beforehand.
because I'll tell ya, you never miss your water till the well runs dry.

what I learned with Mike is, (and he helped to come back in spirit and ask me to get on with it) I learned this, and I told him in spirit land, hey, I'm concentrating on the good times we had, the PUL, thats what I will tell the kids, I will tell them how you loved them, not the sad part of what you neglected to do in our marriage, I want them to remember you for what you did good. I was merely moving towards forgiveness at that point. to the PUL. Gratitude for them being in our lives is more related to the PUL factor. I was able to feel that gratitude when I looked at my kids, and attribute those blessings  directly to this soulmate. that gratitude, if cultivated will lift the heavy feelings away gradually. I was flat lucky to have known him. that was my conclusion if I would keep to love. therefore the gain exceeds the loss.

I never nagged Mike to stop drinking. I let him know I didn't like it, but spirit would not let me nag the man and he shut down if I did. nagging just generates more negativity and is not PUL. His journey therefore was to be an alcoholic in this life. next life, probably not, been there done that. I was to accept him as he was, while expressing my desire without forcing the issue. this I did, therefore I was with a successful relationship as I controlled my anger and fear, that I would not get my wishes fulfilled. I completely stood by him to serve him in any capacity, but the work of addiction is solely his own responsibility.
mine was just to love him and serve him.

would I do it all over? sure. but I don't have to do it over. I succeeded to allow the pain of it and still continue to love. and so did Desert it looks like from here.

sorry if this is a long ramble. I like talking about relationships more than anything else.

love, alysia

I dunno Desert, I had a boyfriend on heroin once long time ago, when I was hippy. like you I was involved with him in emotional sense before I discovered he used it and decided maybe my love could get him off it, as when you're young, you always, well I did, have this sense it's possible if love is strong enough.

she tried to kick it, so did he. he even asked me, do u want me to kick it? I said naturally, of course, do I look stupid? lol. I think we were together about a year. I paid the rent. he stole the rent money. was I mad to discover he found my hiding place!! lol!!! it just seems funny now, but I almost died when I was him. I used once a week with him, he used I think every day, not sure. one night he brought this pure stuff home and wanted to give me (it was the day I used with him) the same spoon he gave himself, the same amount. we started arguing about it as I surely didn't need to have much, he was larger. I thought he had an evil gleam in his eye, speaking of whatever evil is.

he grabbed my arm and I was out like a light. I survived though. speaking of evil, what I think drugs can do is make the soul, the part that is connected to soul, higher wisdom, love, wisdom, all of that, with drugs in the body, that wisdom, it flies away and becomes dissociated from that physical ego.

ego is something always whispers (my opinion) in the ear, I know what to do, I know what is right, I know what is good for this other person, I need to take command..yada yada.

I've seen druggies with glazed look in their eyes. nobody is home. it's like seeing a zombie, theres no spirit in there. they sometimes don't even notice you're in the room and talking to them.
the lesson in there for me, as I see all relationships as just learning experiences, is no, my love is not sufficient to make a relationship grow in the direction to that fullness, where you can say, it's successful, it works.
the lesson for him was, as I found out later, his drug habit made him lose a good thing. this was hard for him then.

maybe thats what happened for R. she might have regretted she lost a good thing.
I don't think I'd do this relationship over as it just show me how dumb I was to be thinking I had great love capacity to change what already is in motion.

yet if down the line it made him think he could have another relationship with somebody if he quits the stuff, and then he goes ahead and does quit, then I know it was useful time spent with another soul because I made a difference for him, that somebody loved him, somebody believed in him, and he would want that again.

as far as this person is concerned his mother was his guide. she used to tell him, straighten up, this lady is good for you! you're going to lose her! she loved me and she loved him. at least he has her guidance.
I used to think love solves everything and one could love anybody at all and win the game. the actual learning about what makes it work though has to occur within the experience getting, and building of the character then in reflection on what went wrong on my own part, then if I consider I was a part of their growth also it evens out a bit.
so I gained some reality there.

I wish we were in the old days, courting was the thing. I think I'm a century throwback soul. then, you got to know someone by an actual dating process. nowdays, it's like everyone is jumping into everyone's bed to try it on for size or something. lol.

I could tell right away, I was gonna have a difficult time here. at any rate, the hippys I knew sorely disappointed me.

love, alysia

well goodness sake Desert, thank u for that tune. I think theres a message in it for me.  it helps me focus my thoughts. Your thought system of fragments is a little different than mine, but I think I follow you.
___________
I hate to say this, but I believe since we're talking about relationships we should be in the off topic area thread. I don't want to use the board to talk about personal relationships; a couple more good responses like you made to my post and you'll soon have my entire life history, because believe me, I like to talk!
if you start up a thread I'll be there in off topics like a fly on sh.t. thanks!