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Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared (Read 20647 times)
dave_a_mbs
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #30 - Jan 18th, 2008 at 9:01pm
 
HI Recoverer-
By all means we should "question questionable sources", and to do so is certainly not being a "scardy cat". That's exactly why I use standard scientific criteria when loking for  explanations of phenomena.  On that basis we have already come to a pretty general conclusion that most of what we do defies scientific testing - and that our methods are of unknown validity and our treatments have unknown reliability. So that part has been handled.

Rei agrees that not all interventions are successful. My statement is that not all treatments are UN-successful either. Given that, I want to understand how to increase success. I've tried to "sanitize" this idea by focussing on a secular phenomenon of faith healing, the "placebo effect", in which the faith of the user of some intervention causes the intervention to function as desired, in spite of having a known lack of logical efficacy. So that part's been handled too - It's better than nothing, but it ain't perfect.

I'm suggesting that the reason that we don't all have these skills in abundance is that either we have blocked access to them in some manner, or we have failed to go after them to discover them. I can't tell which. But I can tell that so long as I argue about the formalisms, I'll never reach the practical aspects. In fact, talking about the formalities totally misses the topic of what is being done and how.

Metaphysics is scary stuff. One of the biggest fears that metaphysical thinking brings is that we might be powerful and efficacious, because then we might be responsible for our own reality. This is diametrically in opposition to the religious idea of abandoning self reliance and responsibility, denying that we have any effective control over our own lives, and thus no moral culpability for errors, and then crucifying Jesus like a Voodoo chicken in hopes that killing him will remove any ethical taint from us. And we justify this by screwing up the interpretation of a statement that "Jesus died for our sins" - where for is most conservatively read as because of. That posture is sickeningly helpless and hopeless. Those who believe in fire escape religion will probably have to come around again to get it straight.

So what's the problem?

I suggest that we have a collection of ideas that CS (and others) have found useful in producing healings. We have a well researched example of "faith healings" in the form of "placebo effect". Just because we can label the effect doesn't mean that we understand it nor that we can replicate it. We also have a well researched thesis of Rev Paul Durbin (and others) who have demonstrated that prayer is effective in healing all manner of ilnesses, serious or not. (Catholics have done a lot of this, it's not all CS.) We have hypnotic healings which seem to defy purely rational explanations. And we have the ultimate mind boggler, spontaneous remissions, usually without any explanation, and not always ascribable to faulty diagnostics.

Given all this miscellaneous stuff, we wind up with a central thread that something is happening that reduces disorders ofmind and body by means not visibly related to any kind of logical mechanisms in the material world. That brings back the question of "How do I learn to do this?"

Why learn it? This is like meditation - talking about it does nothing. We can't even really describe it what meditation is. So to criticize it we need to first learn to meditate. Then we can start questioning. I claim the same is true here. You don't have to join CS to learn to produce your own "placebo effect" - nor, presumably, to go on to the more advanced and more complex aspects of healing.  In fact, from what Rei says, it seems like this type of study is going to lead back to meditation, since that's the essential posture of prayer, and prayer is the method of focus being used.

I still think that it scares the holy poop out of people to think that everybody might be able to do this stuff! So I still think that fear is where the "other than scientific" objections come from. As for the "scientific objections", we've already covered that.

Bottom line: We can say, with the certainty of science, that for an otherwise naive and untutored population, there is an effect, based solely on faith and intention, that is 15% effective in healing. That effect is open to study, just as is someone's bad attitude, social preferences for garlic, and fear of the unknown.  There have been efforts to enhance and increase the ability to heal, which is what CS proposes, and what has otherwise been experimentally shown to be effective. This can be studied.

dave
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #31 - Jan 18th, 2008 at 9:25pm
 
Dave, your quote

Edited:
The "placebo effect" is a well known, well documented and extremely effective of "faith healing", you are 100% correct there. But religious?  I do not pray to my physician- in fact my wife is a geriatric nurse who treats me half the time, and I don't pray to her or worship her either. (I also treat her, and she definitely doesn't view me as a religious figure!) Religion, in the sense of formal group membership has never been my life style - I'm not a joiner. So that aspect doesn't seem important. - Come to think of it, my last communication to my physician was a brief paper on fbromyalgia treatments that she requested from me, since I seem to be amopngst the forefront of workers in that field. Does that mean that she's going to be worshipping me? I doubt it!

Dave of course there is no worship for you your wife or doctor as none of you claim to have exclusive knowledge of divine truths as per MBE did. You utilize these truths; you don’t propagate them as your own and start a religious movement from them

Alan
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #32 - Jan 18th, 2008 at 9:35pm
 
Darn right!

I don't know where MBE or anyone else gets their data, but if there's something to learn, it seems that I'm gonna have to find it out for myself. Talking about the situation doesn't seem to be especially useful, since I can't (as yet) replicate the phenomenon. And if I can't do it, nor understand it, what right do I have to even discuss it?

As for who starts what church - that's not my department. Misses the point.

dave
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #33 - Jan 19th, 2008 at 5:54am
 
R says:
I find it odd that Christ would share as many words as he supposedly does in ACIM, and make no mention about the unfriendly spirits that exist.
___
in my personal experience I've not discovered any unfriendly spirits R, maybe deluded spirits in physical reality, but not when I'm out. some of just don't go there. we have different patterns in the soul design. each one of us do. I confess I questioned at first whether it was JC, I relate to him as a master, because to me the Christ is a different image rather spread out in the air. since I was human, I needed to sense him as human too. thats why they used to say we need a personal relationship with J, we have to make him or make what he stands for personal. I fail to understand your point. there are unfriendly persons in the flesh, they are not more unfriendly once they are spirits..so I'm not following well.
as I went along, there was this presence in the room, I called him DP, for dead preacher just to try and communicate with others about spiritual transformations. language is falling short. thanks for the read! it must be so hard for you to understand me.
there came a point where the content became more important than to establish the authors identity as J. as it was like I said before, I was wretched. I suppose many of us know the old song 'that saved a wretch like me? thats a classic soul journey so my words seems like I plucked them up somewhere and typed them here, maybe just to get attention or something. but its an effort to describe these things. when your sitting there in a room all alone and it feels like god is holding you in their arms and rocking you back and forth and book feels holy and you get in touch with home, suddenly you want to live, but there was this one last thing to do spirit said, first read me and don't chicken out. I'm like everyone else, who wants to buckle under? not me!
whoever was there, DP, or just some master affiliated with J, he convicted me on the stuff as I had to stop every few sentences to ask a question.
luckily, I wasn't working. it was grueling but rewarding.
so if I seem defensive, its just I want to assist the shift so everyone can know they are loved too just the same, and such a simple message it is in the book. its just a book of PUL reflections and sound common sense, from a psychological spiritual viewpoint.

speaking of efforts to describe things, I really would like you to elaborate, maybe a whole page! of your night in heaven, you were too brief, from what u wrote it sounds definetely to have changed your life, and I'll bet others didn't understand. thats ok, we do the best we can.

____
R said:
Consider what Robert Monroe wrote in his book Ultimate Journey. He was concerned about unfriendly influences. The INSPEC told him that they do exist. Some evolved differently than us and don't think much of us. Some have experience being human. They can influence people
_____
I suppose anyone can influence anyone. you'll need to find the page number as I don't follow you well, and now you make a leap to Monroe's book. this is another subject I would invite you to the book forum for this as we need to be on the same page.
_____

R says:
aren't smarter than us, but they have a lot of experience (I don't remember Robert's exact words). Perhaps one of the ways they use their experience is to influence people who won't seriously consider the validity of the sources they read, and instead come up with a everything is hip approach.
____

maybe so. could be. what do I know? I just tell my experiences as I perceive them. I have no argument with you really or your point of view. all I know is we get what we give.
You don't give people enough credit R. I don't know where you've been hanging out, but it don't sound like much fun. u gonna come clean anytime soon?
___

at this point the only thing you've said from a correct perception viewpoint which aligns with ACIM is that "in my defenselessness lies my salvation."
because it means a nonduality state. one is just being. not always having to choose between love and fear, as it occurs in the first stages.
again, it is useless to talk about what took me a year to read and then test out for another 20 years, so its ludicrous trying.
I wish you god speed. whereever your journey takes you.
   you already know where there is PUL there cannot be fear.
u must think im a darn parrot by now.
ok, we have to finish up this.
_____

R says:
Isn't it possible that some of the sources you so staunchly defend, might be the negative influences Robert wrote about, or somebody who is influenced by negative influences?
____
I don't remember reading anything about this in Monroe's books, I would only be repeating what I said above. we should have page numbers in the book forum if you are referring to specific parts of a book, that way we can be on the same page.
if somebody out there is worried about negative influences while exploring, I might just add my own thought briefly, ACIM teachs self responsibility for every single detail of your life. it rests upon the daily thoughts you think, what comes to you and this would be great to take into the book forum.
______

If a person notices that a source is passing out misleading information, should this person just keep his or her mouth shut and say nothing, so he or she will appear loving to others
___
of course not. please do not appear to be loving, unless you really are. that would be so fake. I wish we were in the same room. you can communicate so much better in person, its almost like I can hear you growling at me thru the words and I don't want to misperceive you, so I probably will not be talking to you anymore.
it doesn't feel right what is happening here.
____
If such a person does keep his or her mouth shut, doesn't this make it easier for the deceptive sources that exist to mislead others? Shouldn't somebody stand up to them?
____
thats like a job. somebody always needs to be that type of person, I would say comes a point when you get enough clues you are being deceived, you can then make a new choice whether u want to walk or jump up in their face, deception is simply not possible after awhile. I don't know why you ask me this, unless u r wanting validation from me. we have to speak up if we are prompted to set something right. its self expression. go for it. just fight fair. I wouldn't hit somebody and ask questions later, I'd ask questions first then hit them. lol. no I don't hit really, just kidding. your question doesn't make any sense to me.
perhaps its a part of your soul plan to be the defender of the downtrodden.
I know what thats like too. somehow I can't see that u really have an issue here at all.
you know, your whole life is flashing here, isn't it?
you're questioning your whole thought system I feel. That too is just part of our journeys.  take care, wish I could help. I'll be thinking of ya but I know I'm not the one to be answering your questions as they are far too serious for the likes of me.
____

LOVE!!!
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #34 - Jan 19th, 2008 at 7:02am
 
Alan,

You are putting words into MBE's mouth and then using your words to bash her.  This is not a logical or fair way to address the situation.  You may be building a hell for yourself, or a hollow heaven.

As I said earlier, read the textbook for yourself.  She never claimed the ideas were her own.  She said repeatedly that she was divinely inspired when she wrote the book and was still learning from it in her old age.  Sales of the book took her from poverty to great wealth, and she used her wealth to set up a structure (The Mother Church - TMC in Boston) to defend and promote the ideas in the book.

The book can mean different things to different people at different times, and its meaning grows as you actually practice its teachings.  I attempted to read it several years before the healing that got me into CS, and saw it as a self-help book from a religious perspective.  I missed almost everything that I now see in it.

CS has to be experienced, not just studied.  I am a studier, and my approach was to study it and all the related writings I could find.  As I have progressed I have experienced more and more and am finding more ways to more consistently apply it.  The most experienced and successful Practitioners I know still refer to themselves as students.  Humility is essential.

The effect of CS is to apply a universal rule of Love, which does not take from one and give to another, but blesses all alike, opens possibilities where it appeared there were none, and heals instantly.  The mortal mind opposition is mainly fear that something will happen that they don't control.  All mortal effort is directed at gaining some sort of control over the percieved environment.  Many of these human efforts are illusory but they are intensely defended.  

A fearless approach is required, along with an understanding that God (Divine Mind - your disk - however you refer to the master planner) does nothing but good.  As Jeremiah said:  "...for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."  Jer 31

MBE taught to not take the Bible literally, but to find the spiritual meaning.  This has gotten her in trouble with a lot of mainstream denominations, but her followers, who take the Bible spiritually and not literally, are actively healing themselves and others, and living fearless lives, while the others are arguing over various translations and attacking people like Elaine Pagels with her books about Gnostics and Judas.  A quick Google search will find numerous contradictory interpretations of various Bible stories, so there seems to be a lot of room for MBE's take on them.

The quickest way to experience CS is to work with a professional Journal Listed Practitioner on a problem and experience the result.  

I just got my daily email from Spirituality.com which had this passage from Science & Health (the CS Textbook):  "When we fully understand our relation to the Divine, we can have no other Mind but His, -- no other Love, wisdom, or Truth, no other sense of Life, and no consciousness of the existence of matter or error."

Signing up for the daily Mother Church email will open access to a lot of other CS material.  Here is the link:  
https://www.spirituality.com/ma/login.jhtml?branding=subscriptions

I am reminded of a story that happened here in St. Louis a few years ago related by a Practitioner friend of mine.  A woman was in a serious auto accident and had been taken to a local hospital where her condition was diagnosed as hopeless.  An aunt of the woman remembered that she had attended a CS Sunday school years earlier and asked other family members if a CS Practitioner should be called.  My friend was called and when she entered the emergency room she saw that the woman had a substantial depression in her skull where it had been crushed.  She began to work metaphysically and glanced away from the woman.  When she glanced back the skull had regained its normal shape.  A number of medical personnel in the room also saw the change and were amazed.  The woman regained conscousness and the Practitioner asked her if she would like to be taken to the local CS facility, known as Peace Haven, which cares for CS'ers who are unable to care for themselves.  She said she wanted to do that and was transported there.  Her broken bones healed and she made a complete recovery.

I refer to Peace Haven as the place where Christian Scientists go until they pop back into shape.  I went there with my broken foot and got a padded bootie to keep me from hitting the foot and rented a pair of crutches.  

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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #35 - Jan 19th, 2008 at 2:18pm
 
MBE must have went through tremendous mud slinging defending the inspirational material she received. and still happening. You must be exceedingly grateful that she did Rei. I can sense that because I am too, grateful. every day matter of fact, and virtually unable to share that here.
I'm behind you in your posts here, as you're going to get the same mud in you face and already have just for the desire to actually pass on the good feeling.
However, you are so well written, just stating the facts, I think you are communicating just fine so keep it up!

I can't help but compare the ACIM literature to CS because the experience of humility is precisely the same, and your words you have to experience the word, not just read it, is true here also. also the similarity of your words are compared with ACIM, that we are all teachers, we are all students, and that relates to humility.
its amazing to read you, because its like reading myself.

I wouldn't be afraid of buckling under to humility in the least because as it turned out, it was me being cleansed. I speak from a more personal pov than you but we need people also that just present the facts as they know them and to bad theres no payback to speak of for posting here, otherwise I'd be so rich!

just to ramble a bit what I found highly digestible in ACIM is that we are teaching others all the time Who We Are.  that just means we cannot help but reveal ourselves if we even open our mouth..some self definition is expressed.
that alone produces an effect, negative or positive. One time I got slapped in the face by a wandering guide who said "what you say to one man, you say to all men."

thats because I would always speak to the individual but I didn't have mindfulness of global consciousness, that everything I uttered was what I uttered to all. until I started getting into the We Are One concept, then I saw how alike we all are, while yet we desire to retain our snowflake individuality. and this is possible in a spiritual sense, while healing the separation, which is illusory that my needs supercede yours.

I will surely call upon a CS practioner if I need too due to your reports here. I may just need the fellowship aspect as well I always had a desire to be used as a healing instrument, and have done some laying on of hands now and then. So sounds like a great avenue for me.

I do think it's time, don't you? for healings to become more plentiful.

we surely have nothing to lose by the effort. love, alysia
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #36 - Jan 20th, 2008 at 2:10pm
 
Interesting Rei - Peace Haven - practical. The skull fracture is interesting

I've noticed that those things we do that involve others often require us to release our grip on them in order that an effect might occur.  For years, the old game about staring at people to "make them turn around" never worked for me. Finally I discovered that in fact it was often possible to communicate fundamental attitudes, like "look to the right" by intending, focussing, and then going off into some other distraction that separated my train of thought from what I was doing. My impression is that by clinging to the status of the event as presented, we also cling to the circumstances that we wish to remove. By redirecting ourselves, we also are able to choose an alternative future in which the attachment is not present.

Part of what we do seems to involve being willing to intend something, set it into motion, and then let it happen. This, in my mind, is a matter of practical faith. Your anecdote brought it to mind.  In hypnotic work (I practice as a hypnotist)  the same thing is true. I often tell people that all they need to do is to get out of their own way, and to not stumble over their own feet. So I would make a tentative assumption that this attitude, action and release, is part of the process by which healing is produced. If we apply this to the more common case of placebo effect, then what we have is the action of taking whatever the sugar pill of the day is, and then going on with life, allowing the natural defenses of the body to be called up in response.  Prayer, and especially silent prayer in which we don't have some other person's words with which to argue or dispute, seems to be quite similar. Or, looked at in reverse, perhaps hypnosis, which is little more than a guided meditation,  is actually a great deal closer to prayer than we had thought.

Who knows but that eventually this general concept can be developed into a technology that can be taught to metaphysically minded hypnotherapists. If so, it is certainly no criticism of MBE or the other pioneers in this work. (The other name that comes to mind this morning is Rasputin, who seemes to have had good luck treating hemophilia - all other factors of his life notwithstanding.) The basic tenet of Eastern faiths, that reality is what we choose to create for ourselves, fits right in at that point.

Alysia - I've only dabbled with ACIM, snatches of readings here and there, but it seems to be in the same line of thought. It's interesting that you and I seem to be the ones left to try to dig out the core ideas, now that the big arguments about who said what and to whom have blown over. (Or have they?) Perhaps the essence of all these ideas is to move to a posture in which we have progressively fewer constraints keeping us bound to the immediate instant - and from there to be able to select options more effectively.

dave

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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #37 - Jan 20th, 2008 at 3:20pm
 
Hi Dave I'm following u around  Smiley what u said about silent prayer I agree, can be likened to setting an intention like we talk about intentions here.

just to share one affirmation I got from ACIM is something along the lines of the ability to make a decision. one way or the other.  this struck me hard at the time as I realized how indecisive I really was. once I could get a handle on what it meant to make a firm decision and then just release it, I could it works. sort of like piss or get off the pot.
the releasing part is maybe the most difficult part as that means you have to stop worrying about it. like your attachment comment..non attachment to outcome means a freed up head space to actually be able to do it.
like making a basket you might say, are you going to stand there all day or just go ahead and aim for it? maybe this is like Bruce's little finger bending idea. I always think about that little finger bending, just before it actually does bend.

In ACIM theres a lot of affirmations: 365 or each day of the year. a lot of them start out with I choose...
reminding us we do have choice between two thoughts, always. yes we seem on the same wave length where u say selecting options, and I say making a choice.  Smiley
I'm gonna go sail my boat now Dave gently down the stream, merrily merrily life is but a dream.  Smiley
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #38 - Jan 21st, 2008 at 2:45pm
 
Well, Alysia, I chased women for years, so we have some karma, hum? Smiley

Bruce's "silly little finger bending exercise" is very much to the point. Mind over matter. Excellent suggestion. I sense the same thing as in Rei's CS remarks.

OK - so we now have the placebo effect as a general example of healing through faith in a substance or treatment, several cases of intention which involves focussed will followed by release, prayer groups (Durbin et al), and silent prayer by what I assume are advanced meditators in CS. All these have something in common that makes them work.

We have limited explanations, Buddhism simply tells us that we do it all for ourselves and to ourselves. There is a distinct lack of explanation about how we accomplish this. Other approaches tell much the same thing, that we are the prime shapers of our destinies, that God has given us the ability to alter the world to fit our whims and wishes, but not how to do it.

Meditation brings samadhi, which ends up in the ultimate spiritual spaces where the everyday world disappears and is replaced by our own projections. I've used this idea in hypnotherapy, by sending a person "to the Center" - then suggesting a different attitude with which to view the world, and bringing them back, they tend to instantiate that attitude.  So that's part of it as well.

I have the sense of something truly profound, lurking just under the surface. But I can't quite see it yet.

dave
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #39 - Jan 22nd, 2008 at 1:25am
 
I too have a subtle sense of freshness in the air Dave. smells exotically familiar.

the different attitude is the suggestion u can give your patients..or clients, that is what I want to mention is a good means to change.

One of my most favorite of all meditations of the 365 lesson plans of ACIM is
"I wish to see this differently."

holy cow I thought when I first read that, does he mean just by wishing I can see a problem differently? BONG!  Grin well from then on out I remembered this phrase when I was not finding the answer I needed and a little upset about it.
I closed my eyes and just said silently "I wish to see this differently."
then I would have to forget because it's not instant gratification, more like experimentation with the principle combined with faith.

a few days would go by, and it still works this way, a few day will pass, and sure enough, just like tuesday follows monday, I would be looking at the problem from an entirely different viewpoint! which always settled me down with some kind of aha moment where there was a problem, before, now there's no problem, just a peaceful feeling.

somehow I can't see Dave as a woman chaser, but hmmm, he probably was now that I think about it... Cheesy
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #40 - Jan 22nd, 2008 at 4:35am
 


REI,

I still reject the belief that the material is and is a figment of the spiritual mind. Why would the creator give us a physical body with five senses that constantly lie about the reality in our environment? Science of the mind is not the same as the “RELIGION OF CHRISTIAN SCIENCE”.

The scripture must be read in the spiritual light but is also very relevant to every day life. "Love one another as I have loved you". If the spiritual is the only view we must take from the bible then the death of Jesus was a lie and delusion of the wrong thinking mind. Again, I reject this with the distain it deserves.

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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #41 - Jan 22nd, 2008 at 4:55am
 
Disdain away dude, it's a free country.

If you ever have a serious problem, you may wish to contact a Practitioner. 

If you do, I truly hope you have an experience similar to those that I have had.  It will heal you and expand your universe in ways you don't seem to comprehend right now.

Almost all Christian Science Churches have "God Is Love" prominently displayed on the wall of their auditorium.  That pretty well sums it up.


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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #42 - Jan 22nd, 2008 at 5:08am
 
Dave,

Your years of working for good are apparent in your posts. 

I think you might find Spiritual Healing In A Scientific Age by Peel interesting.  As I said in an earlier post, reading from page 16 to the end of the chapter and then reading the stories starting on page 54 will give you a quick summary of the ideas.

I just read the first few pages of Moen's workbook last evening.  I am in the middle of a very involved proceeding right now, but hope to devote time to his workbook in the next week or so.

Thanks for your observations and comments.

REI
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #43 - Jan 22nd, 2008 at 1:01pm
 
Alan quote:
The scripture must be read in the spiritual light but is also very relevant to every day life. "Love one another as I have loved you". If the spiritual is the only view we must take from the bible then the death of Jesus was a lie and delusion of the wrong thinking mind.
____

my opinion its true the spiritual life intersects to be relevant to everyday life.

your statement is "then the death of J, was a lie/delusion of incorrect perception.

excuse the change I made. If we focus on J's resurrection rather than the crucifixion, we have no argument with Christian Science. I submit J wanted the world to know the body was nothing because he didn't "stay down." therefore the spirit and the mind of man is more important as a concept of mind over matter.
PUL, or love is misplaced here, to mean a love of body sensations which precludes the spiritual quest is not the right focus, and we are slowly getting to that knowledge.
that does not mean we are not permitted to enjoy our five senses as we study and learn and live.
it just means the five senses are limited perceptional values when held up next to a master teacher's viewpoint.


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dave_a_mbs
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Re: Christian Science and Moen Reports Compared
Reply #44 - Jan 22nd, 2008 at 2:18pm
 
Hi Alan -
While I defintely do not want to start a church, I see no problem with the idea. However, it needs to be taken in context. I recall the words of the late science fiction author, L Ron Hubbard, who said that if we want to get rich, starting a church is the best way. And then he founded Dianetcs which turned into Scientology, and lived happily ever after on his Mediterranean yacht

The fact that someone discovers a truth, any old garden variety of truth, and then starts an organization at which other people come and also look at their truth and make it work for them, sounds to me like a good idea. Churches are made by men for men and women like us.

Personally, Alan, I'd be far happier to join a group that does something tangible than one that gives me a book edited by Justinian's cronies for purposes of extending their political power in the "Holy Roman Empire" and tells me to take all this on faith because nobody understands it enough to talk about it. About the third time I heard a priest tell me that it was all a big mystery and no mortal could fathom it I decided that something was seriously amiss. The next line to that litany is that we're all damned forever, so get out the asbestos overalls.

I rather prefer The Gospel of Thomas. But that was anti-imperialist, and didn't make the cut.

If we are willing to look at these ideas from the perspective of growth, we can see that there are a few religious organizations in which people do nothing but hang out, but they offer some kind of background focus for life. Next we have the "cheap and dirty churches" that specialize in fire escape religiosity, often with a lot of drama and screaming. Next in line are the popular apologists who try to find social platitudes by which to keep the lid on for another season. I'm inclined to put King Henry and the C of E into that group, right along with Justinian, although they've certainly advanced since them.

Then there are a few that suggest that we can benefit ourselves by various practices, such as self denial, learning to delay gratification, and penance. Then we find people undergoing great physical abnegations and flagellation and suchlike in an effort to mortify their flesh so as to evolve. Some of these guys actually can do remarkable things.

A very few "churches" suggest that the path to the Ultimate Galuptuous Golden Goody is by meditation and inner work, emphasizing more the Doctrine of the Heart over the Doctrine of the Eye. After we get a few steps beyond our meditation lessons we start discovering various organizations in which there are phenomena produced that actually involve spiritual changes, such as the Spiritualists' numerous groups.  (I technically am a spiritualist minister, although I rarely act in that capacity.) And somewhere on the upper side of the goups that provide spiritual phenomena we discover groups that produce physical phenomena, including the various flavors of Christian Science and Religious Science (Science of Mind) and a few metaphysical organizations.

From this perspective, there is a progression of organizations available to the naive new soul through which to ultimately find the path back to God. I do not feel that it is because God is malicious, capricious, or inscrutible that we have all this ecclesiastical clutter. Rather, it is necessary to fit the means to those who need it, so we have a pretty wide spectrum of dors through which to walk in search of ultimate Realization.

Some individuals start churches for specific mundane purposes - I recall the Rastafarians and other neo-theo-herbalists in Maui, seeking to protect their meditation style. The tiny group to which I belong is oriented toward protection of rights to perform religious healing along the usual lines of spiritualism, entity depossession and so on, in spite of laws in places like Indiana that regulate and prohibit some of these activities. It's a church made for and by men, but for spiritual purposes.

My personal take on all of this is that if we truly want to find what the Tibetans call "the Short Path", then we have to use whatever resources we can find. These are provided so that we can start with any kind of background, such as idolatry, and progress to the one ultimate fact at the top of the mountain - "there's no-thing there". (That's because it all arose ex-nihilo.)

It is the aspect of no-thing and no-body that will presumably accompany our awareness into the afterlife. Meanwhile, we have CS, ACIM, esoteric Buddhism and Vedanta telling us that having reached that point, we can now do it for ourselves. If we accept that point, then we must also accept that, in this case, Rei has come to us because we are prepared to hear her message. And that has happened, not because of trivial happenstance, but according to the ultimately fine grinding of the wheels of God's enlightenment machine. So we can use it, lose it, or just sit and go into a sort of passive denial state from which we are required to do nothing, and which returns about twice as much nothing as we put forth.  Wink

Alysia - As a fine upstanding red-blooded American dissolute, it is my duty to chase skirts and to work dilligently to increase the multiplicity of the species.  I have striven earnestly to fulfill these mundane expectations. However, alas, what I used to do all night now takes me all night to do.  Smiley

dave
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