Hi,

Very interesting and informative thanks. I would like to add my take on this be it what it may. That one should eliminate the "love of ones self "  ‘In this I have to disagree” I have experience with mentally ill people, depressives, bi-poplars, etc and the one common thing is “self-hatred, thus the constant thoughts of self-destruction by suicide etc.

Jesus said love one another as you “love yourself” and I agree with him. I am not referring to selfishness or self-centeredness. If one loves the awareness that god has provided you, and the body he has given you, will like wise love others in the same way. We must not become so spiritually minded that we become no earthly good. Meditation is a wonderful healthy practice, but to sit in a cave somewhere for twelve long years in the Himalayas, as if an English woman did makes no sense to me, is unproductive, and adds nothing to society. When asked why she had performed this marathon separation, she was unable to give a satisfactory answer, simply saying to get to know her self. Well at the age of sixty if you still do not know whom you are you are in real trouble.

Alan

Blink:

Regarding what you wrote to Alan, it is interesting that the cave dwelling thing comes from Eastern influences, while people such as Alan who have had near death experiences, tend to believe that taking part in the World in a loving way is what spiritual life is really about.

The other night I received an extended verbal message. At the end it said, people have been placing too much of an emphasis on consciousness, not enough emphasis on love. People who meditate according to the Eastern viewpoint, often try to find that they are pure awareness. We're all already awareness beings, so perhaps it would be better to find a way to become awareness beings who live completely according to love. I tried that awareness thing, and it gets you only so far.

If you think about what Alan wrote, it isn't necessarily negative. I know of a lot of people who seperate themselves from the rest of the World as they get involved with gurus, give guru lots of time and money, but nothing to the rest of the World. I used to be one of these people. I gave so much, and in the end nobody benefited except for guru's wallet size.

Vajra:

I'd say that sitting in a cave for 12 years and going for a retreat aren't quite the same.

Regarding Buddhists, I figure there are many wonderful loving people who practice Buddhism, and benefit according to how they apply themselves.

Regarding Buddhist teachers, I don't figure you can categorize all of them the same way. This would have to be done on a case by case basis, just as one would have to look at say for example, Catholic priests on a case by case basis. Whether or not one thinks so, Buddhist teachings are passed on generation to generation, just as Catholic teachings are passed on generation to generation. I figure many sincere people have chosen to become either Buddhist or Catholic priests etc.

The main thing for many people, is that they influence the World in a positive way, and get to move on to a nice place after they die.  I figure people from various religions and non-religious people do so in their own way.

When it comes to the many false gurus, outside of the fact that sometimes even hard lessons help us, people would be better off without them.

To sum up, I believe it is a mistake for a person to believe that they have to become a monk of some kind, in order to grow spiritually. Many people become monks because they believe that becoming one is the only way they can grow spiritually. A number of people have told me this. This is a misconception that is never shared by people who have NDEs, not even when they have experiences that are cosmic in nature.

OK I said I'd come back when I had some experience with Chod. (the Tibetan Buddhist practice which is the subject of this thread - see the first post where I explained it)

The issue I've been working with approximates to my motivation, but a bit more subtle than that. I guess it's been a bit of a life issue, in that initially I was inclined to overcommit to causes and undertakings. Following years of thyroid induced fatigue I became quite gun shy. My thought process and instincts would suggest a course of action, but once I got stuck in it would become such a mental and physical struggle. With time I lost confidence in myself and started holding off getting involved in stuff - but this too caused a conflict with my instinct as to what I should be doing.

It surfaced as a visualisation of this worn out old Amercian footballer in 40s football gear. I've several times completed the practice of offering love and myself as a gift to he/she/it as outlined in the original post. Resting for quite some time afterwards after re-integration in some sort of no space no time type reality filled with light.

Absolutely remarkable effects  - I've found myself having to restrain myself so that I don't act brusquely or too pro-actively towards other people. It feels like somebody took a load off my back.

I don't know if this will be permanent, but I imagine it'll need repetition for some time if it's not to wear off. But it's almost so effective that care is needed - it could very easily spill over into arrogance and misuse.

If I try to rationalise what went down it's presumably a tool that allows reprogramming of the mind (or the mind created reality) at quite a deep level. No idea how it may work. It's probably limited in use by the fact that you probably need a pretty stable meditatively trained mind to stay with it, but a bit of an eye opener....

Ideas anybody?

It never struck me that way Alysia, but recovery of a separated part of one's self exactly what it is. I think it wouldn't necessarily produce results quite so quickly in all situations - that it can take years to sort some isues. Thanks for that.

Must say I'd fancy a visit to Tibet too, the few I've met (lbeit all quite highly trained) had this rather lovely mix of qualities - grounded, direct and at the same time not aggressive.