The book of genesis contains in it the creation story which forms the basis of Judeo-Christian beliefs.  To some extent, some consider the story and components to be allegorical - not to be taken literally.  Yet I find the story of Adam and Eve, and the trees of knowledge and life to be worth going over in a forum dedicated to exploring the afterlife, as much consequence stems from the "fall of man" from Eden.

To recap, in the creation saga, Adam and Eve were originally innocent in the garden of Eden, and in this garden were planted two trees (by God); the tree of knowledge (of Good and Evil), and the tree of Life. They were instructed to eat of any trees or plants other than these two:



It is interesting that mortality was linked to eating of this tree of knowledge.  "You will surely die," leaves no doubt about it.  What does that imply about the garden of Eden and their life in it had they not eaten of the fruit?  That they would have remained there without death?  Or that without knowledge, death would have no meaning to them?  Surely they were incarnate in Eden as God breathed life into Adam - or were they?  Was Eden the equivalent of the Summerland in Focus 27?  In any event, as it is with human nature, Eve is tempted by the serpent, and convinces Adam to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Of course, the rest of the story is widely known, and after eating of the tree, the first thing Adam and Eve do is feel ashamed of their nakedness and hide.  They are then cursed and banished from Eden to toil in the physical plane.  In doing so, God says:



We are then left to wonder, why the creator would be concerned if man ate of the tree of life and lived forever?  Certainly, the creator could not have felt threatened by his creation.  Afterall, he placed both trees in the garden - this was a deliberate act, and intended to produce an effect.

One interpretation may be that man was not meant to live forever incarnate.  The knowledge of good and evil implied all that goes with it, with the loss of unity from God and the universe.  The dualism we see in our reality is the cause for much misery.  If physical death did not occur in the physical realm, there would be no spiritual rebirth afterwards and progression (unless it could be achieved incarnate) with a return to the creator.

Obviously, the notion of a tree of life which we were forbidden to eat (indeed prevented from eating after eating from the tree of knowledge) and this story are meant to be understood symbolically if not literally.  Yet, I wonder what other interpretations we could come up with.  The gnostics took all of this and other indications in Genesis to mean that the God of the old testament was imperfect or even evil called a "demiurge," and that Jesus and subsequent christian teachings were more in line with the divine plan.  

Was the tree of life forbidden with subsequent immortality due to a perceived threat, or because once incarnate, with knowledge of good and evil, physical death was part of the path to true spiritual progress?

Matthew

  My sense of this all is this, and since i'm not fully Source attuned, there may be errors involved: The Creator originally created us as companions and has Co-Creators.  In order to do this, the big C had to give us Freewill.  In order to give us Freewill, the C had to allow for a potential awareness of something other than Sourceness, and the ability to choose between Sourceness and unSourceness, or to put in Biblical speak, between Life and death. 

  The latter awareness is not a real reality, in that it's not inherently eternal, like Sourceness and Spirit is.   There is really only Life and Light.

   So here we are, freshly created Sparks out of Spirit.   Some of us, quickly forgot our origins, our Sourceness and became caught up in creating, but not in the Creator's way of creating. 

  This led to the first experiences and feelings of fear, of being "ashamed".    Why, because some part of us knew and knows that we our real job is to co create with the Creator.  Not to buck against those Universal laws, to become rebellious and willful unto ourselves.

  One Spark, separated and returned fully before any other.  It became a true Co-Creator with Source, a God "know ye not, that ye are Gods in the making?".   In doing so, It manifested this particular Universe, but in its nonphysical patterns and consciousness.   On a "Soul" level. 

   Many of its siblings looked upon this new Creation and said something like, "wow, gotta get me some of that!"    So a bunch of us hopped into this Universe and started to mess around with the original patterns which were originally very fast vibrating and fluidic, as fluidic as thought.

  In disrupting the natural flows and harmony, in creating in a unSourcelike and unP.I. type way, we began to get stuck more and more within our own manifestations and thoughtforms.   The thoughtforms themselves got more and more dense, less and less fluidic, slower and slower vibrating in nature.    Once stuck in these ever denser and slower vibrating thoughtforms, it became harder and harder to remember and be our original selves. 

   We began to know "unconsciousness" and unconsciousness is a form of "death".   Awareness and consciousness IS life.   We began to get caught up in this collective river of unSoureness. 

This eventually manifested what we know and call the "physical", and the physical is a slow vibrating, dense, and overly structured pattern, reflection, or projection of that original Creation which had very fast vibratory and free, fluidic Light filled patterns and consciousnesses.   

    In order to unstick this and to help out the whole thing, the Creator of this particular system, the P.I. realized that it had to become directly involved in these stuck patterns, had to go through it itself, transcend same and become a true wayshower and example to its stuck siblings.

  It enlisted the help of many other of its siblings who hadn't become as stuck.   Some, or many of these were originally created by the P.I. working with Source, to be "Retriever" Souls with the purpose of finding these stuck and lost selves and bringing them back to the Creator's Consciousness. 

  So, there are two "Lords" of the Bible, The Lord, the Source of all, the original God, and then there is the more individualized Lord or God, who was the co creator of this Universe.   Both are referred to in the Bible.

   When we attune enough to Source and to pure Light frequencies, like Alysia said, we don't have to weigh so much the choices between "good" or rather Life and bad or death, it becomes a more automatic expression of who we really are, as parts of Source who know that they are part of Source and meant to be co creators with same.   Like attracts and begets Like or in other words we become unto like Source itself, not the totality no, but as individualized expressions of same.

   So, it was an intermixing of the passive potential that the Creator originally allowed to exist of "negativity" (for Freewill purposes), and an active partaking in that, which brought "death" to us as individuals, or rather a loss of conscious awareness.

All the above is not just an "Earth" thing, physical is found throughout many parts of the Universe, and similar issues have happened here and there, just to varying degrees.    Many "enlightened" beings are still working with physical energies, but on a higher vibration, so that they can help more fully their stuck siblings and other selves.  Their physical does not die or degrade, because they are in complete control of the outer illusion reflections of their real inner energies or consciousness.   

  Many have graduated to what the Planning Intelligence did in the beginning, and now have become co creator Gods of other Universes and consciousnesses.   

J said: So, it was an intermixing of the passive potential that the Creator originally allowed to exist of "negativity" (for Freewill purposes), and an active partaking in that, which brought "death" to us as individuals, or rather a loss of conscious awareness.
___

you caught Mathews true question much better than I did. I agree, and this also correlates with what the premises of TMI has said to my pov. Im reminded of another biblical saying "for the ways of man are the ways of death." or "come out from among them."
or "I come to give you life in abundance."
I think Mathew has a deeper question for some reason. I think it might relate to the meaning of life itself, like life is a circle and therefore death is inevitable and purposeful to be viewed as rebirth rather than the end of a dream.

this kind of question though above, I think, at least personally, it is for each person to decide what the meaning of life is, to place our own meaning upon it. definetely I see man as alternating between rebellion and remembering source.
being in C1 means we forget source. C1 means limited consciousness, with a focus point on attaining a certain kind of experience to add to the discs total accumlation of knowledge within physical area. fruits of our labor so to speak.

what I missed in my first try at Mathews question was added by Justin. that of the free will question which could not come about until duality was established, from which then a choice could come about between this or that. free will means to choose.

I'm thinking about people who develop a will, and about people who don't develop a will. I'm thinking the will to return to source would be a development of each singular soul; sort of like I think of being one pointed, to focus in on a certain path of thought and will could be like holding desire for our good to manifest, or like preparation for that creative interplay whereby life abundant is a given.

Lights of Love wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2008 at 11:37pm:


   The Eve out of Africa theory may have some holes in it.   There is a really interesting site on the web called Science Frontiers Online, which goes through many of the world's scientific journals and collects some very interesting and often anomalous info relating to current and mainstream scientific paradigms.  The guy that runs the site and adds his comments to these various articles is a physicist with an wide and diverse interest in many different aspects of science.

  Here is an article taken from that site regarding the Eve out of Africa issue, especially note the comments at the end:

"When Humans Were An Endangered Species

At one point during the last 400,000 years, the human population worldwide was reduced to only about 10,000 breeding men and women -- the size of a very small town. What caused this population "bottleneck"? Did a population crash engulf the entire globe. If not, who was spared?

Such questions arise from a surprising observation: Human DNA is remarkably uniform everywhere humans are found. This hidden genetic uniformity is difficult to believe if one strolls through a cosmopolitan city like New York or Paris. Nevertheless, compared to the DNA of the great apes, whose mutation rates should be close to ours, human genes on the average show far fewer mutations. Human DNA from Tokyo and London is more alike than that from two lowland gorillas occupying the same forest in West Africa. Harvard anthropologist M. Ruvolo has commented: "It is a mystery that none of us can explain."

The clear implication is that humans recently squeezed through a population bottleneck, during which many accumulated mutations were wiped out. In a sense, the human race began anew during the last 400,000 years. Unfortunately, DNA analysis cannot say where the very grim reaper came from.

(Gibbons, Ann; "The Mystery of Humanity's Missing Mutations," Science, 267:35, 1995.)

Comment. The hand that wiped the slate clean, or nearly so, might have been a meteor impact, a pandemic, the Ice Ages, a flood, volcanism, etc. Whatever it was, it seems to have largely spared Africa. The chimps and gorillas there apparently did not pass through the bottleneck. Even more interesting is the observation that the DNA of Subsaharan Africans does shows more variability and therefore seems older than that from humans elsewhere on the planet. (See BMG9 in our catalog volume: Biological Anomalies: Humans III.) Or perhaps Subsaharan DNA only seems older because it was not forced through that bottleneck. There are implications here for the African Eve theory. "


Other sources, mainly psychical ones, have suggested that humankind and the different races appeared rather simultaneously in 5 different main areas around the world. 

  The above is also very interesting from the Cayce readings perspective, because there is an account in there, that a young leader type, who was psychically and inspirationally led, told his peoples in and around the mountains in Turkey, that they needed to move to the Egypt area because of the coming Earth changes then.   

  He knew that the Egyptian area would be the most stable during the coming changes in that cycle long ago. 

  That bottle neck info in the above scientific article seems to indirectly support the info in the E.C. readings, and that the Egyptian area has been a relatively stable one during Earth changes.

  This is also confirmed and talked about in Plato's writings.  Plato tells of an account where a Greek spiritual and knowledge seeker named Solon, goes to Egypt and talks to one of the High Priests there.   During their conversation, Solon is told that the Greeks are a young people, young because their memories are young due to having been affected during Earth change filled cycles.

     He further elaborates that the Egyptians have a very long memory and much knowledge, because they have survived fairly well many different changes in the Earth through the long Ages.

   

I've been given permission to post this..I thought it pertinent to look this as it contains myth, or what we considered myth, is actually some research from ancient civilizations regarding Horus and Isis, and the story of Mary and Jesus, how these two stories are similar but occurred in different time periods in different countries which goes to show spirit will pop up where and when it pleases. I got this off myspace.

just interesting, don't know if it's useful, but seems on topic.

Thoughts from A Pagan Christmas

Zeitgeist the movie, part 1 has officially been proven correct.

I found this yesterday while reading Christian Rätsch's book, Pagan Christmas. When I found the quote, I checked to see if it had been sourced by others in this field regarding the fact of the similarities between Jesus and Horus. Other than Rätsch, it appears that the following quote from Epiphanius (circa C.E. 375) has only been used in a handful of other books in 150 years since its discovery in 1859.

This is "MAJOR DISCOVERY". We now have the proof that the texts have been manipulated by the Christians to cover up the similarities between HORUS and JESUS.

From Christian Rätsch, Pagan Christmas, pg. 150-1.

"In 375 CE, Epiphanius, Biship of Constantia, described the pagan winter solstice feasts and mystery cults:
"This feast was celebrated by the Greeks (I mean the pagans) on December 25—the day called Saturnalia by the Romans, Kronia in Egypt, and Kykellia by the Alexandrians. On December 25, then, a cut happens that is also a turn; and it begins to grow. This is the day when the light becomes more (Vossen 1985, 72)."

In Egypt, Kykellia is called "the rite of Isis." Like the smudging nights, this is a twelve-day feast. It begins with a torch procession in honor of the birth of Horus, the son of Isis: "The birth of the new sun is the intended meaning, and that was connected with the announcement of the sowing [of wheat] in the earth, freshly fertilized (with dung) and flooded by the Nile" (Vossen 1985, 72f). The sowing was done on December 27, during the feast celebrating the ascension of Horus to the throne. The meaning of the name Isis is equivalent to "Earth".

Who is not familiar with the image of the Mary holding the baby Jesus? This classic tableau has found expression in countless examples of European art. This depiction of mother and child is not merely a sentimental evocation of motherhood, nor did it originate with the birth of Christ. It actually began with Egyptian pictures of Isis and Horus child, giving us yet another example of the mysteriously subtle interweaving of religious iconography and meaning in art from diverse cultures."
~ Christian Rätsch, Ph.D.

The above discovery was verified last night by Acharya S, and was sent to other scholars as well. Not only have we re-discovered one of the largest COVER-UPS in academic history, but it also appears that because of Rätsch, Mead, Vossen, and my diligence, that the original name of the Egyptian celebration *MAY* have been re-discovered!

The above quote I found is MISSING in ALL translations of Epiphanius EXCEPT the one quoted above by Rätsch, and the following:

Thrice-greatest Hermes: Studies in Hellenistic Theosophy and Gnosis
By Hermes, George Robert Stow Mead
Thrice-greatest Hermes: Studies in Hellenistic Theosophy and Gnosis

""And here it will be of interest to turn to a curious statement of Epiphanius; it is missing in all editions of this Father prior to that of Dindorf (Leipzig, 1859), which was based on the very early (tenth century) Codex Marcianus 125, all previous editions being printed from a severely censured and bowdlerized fourteenth century MS.

Epiphanius is stating that the true birthday of the Christ is the Feast of Epiphany, "at a distance of thirteen days from the increase of the light [i.e. December 25]; for it needs must have been that this should be a figure of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and of His twelve disciples, who make up the thirteen days of the increase of the Light." The Feast of the Epiphany was a great day in Egypt, connected with the "Birth of the Aeon,"--a phase of the "Birth of Horus." For Epiphanius thus continues:

"How many other things in the past and present support and bear witness to this proposition, I mean the birth of Christ! [Notice how Epiphanius thinks that the similarities between Jesus and Horus actually support the Jesus story!] Indeed, the leaders of the idol-cults, filled with wiles to deceive the idol-worshippers who believe in them, in many places keep highest festival on this same night of Epiphany [=the Manifestation to Light], so that they whose hopes are in error may not seek the truth. For instance, at Alexandria, in the Koreion, as it is called--an immense temple, that is to say the Precinct of he Virgin--after they have kept all-night vigil with songs and music, chanting to their idol when the vigil is over at thingy-crow, they descend with lights into an underground crypt, and carry up a wooden image lying naked on a litter, with the seal of a cross made in gold on its forehead, and on either hand two similar seals, and on either knee two others, all five seals being similarly made into gold. And they carry round the image itself, circumambulating seven times the innermost temple, to the accomplaniment of pipes, tabors and hymns, and with merry-making they carry it down again underground. And if they are asked the meaning of this mystery, they answer: 'To-day at this hour the Maiden (Kore), that is, the Virgin, gave birth to the Aeon.'"

He further adds that at Petra, in Arabia, where, among other places, this mystery was also performed, the Son of the Virgin is called by a name meaning the "Alone-begotten of the Lord."

Here, then, at Alexandria, in every probability the very environment of our treatise, we have a famous mystery-rite, solemnized in the Temple of the Virgin, who gives birth to a Son, the Aeon. This, we shall not be rash in assuming, signifies not only the birth of the new year, but also still more profound mysteries, when we remember the words of the Naassene Document quoted above: "For such a man is the Virgin, big with child, conceiving and bearing a Son,--not psychic, not fleshly [nor, we may add, temporal], but a blessed Aeon of Aeons"--that is, an Eternity of Eternities, an immortal God." [...]

With the similarities between Horus and Jesus officially PROVEN, the attacks on Zeitgeist (and our own work) are now assuredly false.

Further research on these topics, placing the research in the historical context as I recommended previously in a thread on our website, is to be found in the new, official release of the Zeitgeist Companion by Acharya S. that was released last week. The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST, Part 1

  Interesting reply Alysia, especially the part about Jesus's true birthdate.   Reason why i find it interesting is that, Cayce's guides pointed to Jan. 6th as being the true date, from our calendar perspective, of his birth. 

   Some mistaken myths regarding the Bible and this whole issue, say that neither December nor January are likely, because of certain weather issues and what's indicated in the N.T. about the Shepard's etc.  BUT other sources say that it's quite possible because of the weather patterns of that area, and that rains are common right before mid December to early Jan., hence the Shepard's would be out with their sheep to take advantage of the newly watered grass.

I struggled with the past lives thing a great deal, when I was receiving biblical passages and then I had a past life reading about being a missionary, and I struggled because I didn't want to feel split in two this way. I did come to terms the biblical passages were a part of my other self, in the disc but we remain two distinct entities.
I felt like I was a man for awhile. shoot. I finally related "him" to be the same thing as a guide, or even part of the higher self concept and I'm more comfortable with that.
also I think this other life was closer to JC and was commissioned to follow me into this life to remind me of those ties.

the other life as an Indian who was midwife and attached to her tribe emotionally, I can see myself as her much easier and grew very nostalgic about the cutting short of that life. she had that tribal loyalty thing I carried over, which was also a trait I had in Greece, both lives were concerned with violence, loyalties, and ideals. the thing about other lives, other selves, it is my belief we can pick and choose after awhile, which time period we wish to incarnate into, which would tend to bust up concepts of orderly, sequential lives.

well, I already decided, I might consider coming back to the 50's, and do some doo whops on a street corner harmony group.
seems like fun.

Hello Doc,

Hek you got a good response from this thread, here is my take on the subject.

Enigma of the existence of evil and the Garden of Eden and God the Benevolent.

I will try in my own way to answer this most difficult question.

How can we ever reconcile the fact of evil, suffering and pain, existing side by side with a benevolent holy God of light?

Let us go back to the story of the Garden of Eden. God says to Adam in Gen,Chp 2 Verse 17 that he may eat of any tree except the tree of knowledge of "good and evil". Note the tree of knowledge of good and evil, so evil existed before Adam.

However, God being all-knowing knows before hand that Adam is going to fail the test so why did he give it in the first place? I hear a loud reply from the congregation of saints out there, “because he wanted us to have a free will and not be robots”. I don’t buy this, completely, as God could easily given Adam free rain and said to him “Adam your can do anything you want without any reservations”

Surely, the above would be free will without the necessity of any test.
Nevertheless, God in his infinite wisdom goes ahead and gives Adam (and Eve) a test he “knows they are going to fail, Why? Was this fair seeing the awful consequences for humanity down through the age? Yes absolutely, as I will describe later in this essay
Let us go back to the origin of evil, where did it come from.

Now this might be hard for baby to understand but it is absolutely true and right out of The Word of GOD.

Isaiah Capt. 45 Verse 7 I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create “evil” I God do all these things. God made evertthing so he must have made evil but why?

Let us go back to Adam and the pampered environment of the Garden of Eden. If Adam and eve had remained and by obeying God ( as God knew the would not) they would have existed in forever a paradise setting of beauty warmth, comfort, never ever have to toil work just reach out and eat do any thing they want . This would be wonderful for say a hundred years or a thousand years, but having never ever experienced cold they could not appreciate warmth, never being hungry never appreciate food never being thirsty they would not appreciate the taste and satisfaction of sparking water

They would have existed in a one-sided reality never knowing the opposite. Therefore, after countless years what is paradise to us would become a boring hell to them. Therefore, God simply had to banish them into the world. You see God had said to Adam he must not eat of the tree of knowlege of what? Good and Evil. So it is obvious that if Adam had not eaten of this tree he would never been able to know that Eden was a really Good place.

So God being fair and just gave them the test, which they failed and drove them out into the present reality world of thorns, cold, dark, pain, evil etc, etc. This reality is based on a duality we know evil so we know the beauty of goodness; we know truth so we can hate the lie, and we experience the light so that we know dark.

We yearn for paradise lost and when we finally reenter it,  we will be able to appreciate it as we have known and will always remember the opposite. earth our hell

I do not for one moment believe the nonsense that there is an eternal battle between God and the Devil and that the Devil is almost Almighty Gods equal. The Devil can only do what God permits him to do as we read in the book of Job. 'This shouting at the enemy iiritates me', it is God who will deal with the Devil, not .


there are:

Good and evil
Light and dark
Truth and lie
Deception and honesty
Love and hate
Positive and negative
Faith and despair
Holiness and depravity
Warm and hot
Life and death

And so on and so on……………………

God bless

Alan
McDougall