Nanner I tried to find the posts you mentioned as being at jenseits-de.com  and about Hitler's soul's adventures but I did not see them; are they only in German?

The creation story at jenseits-de.com does not indicate that we are here to "improve" ourselves. We are here to experience the emotions. This raises more questions than I can answer. How much free will do we have? 

So, if it is correct that we are players in a play that we ourselves have written, what is to be our response to attrocities? This cosmology leaves me confused about how to approach living from day to day even as it interests me philosophically. Still the whole WWII thing still gives us something to which to respond emotionally. Interesting.

I'm sorry your family suffered so much but I'm not surprised. Even watching old WWII movies as a child I got the impression things pretty much fell apart for people but I guess I didn't know you might have to kill one child to save another. I knew it wasn't all against just Jews and gypsies because there was in my town a nicw woman who was a war bride. She was from Germany and her family was Lutheran and they were put in work camps, where her mother died. She helped start a Lutheran Church in ourt town. I didn't realize the collaboration between thew Nazis and the churches was so formal. Growing up, my church had a minister who was in to Dietrich Bonhoeffer big time, so I knew there were people who resisted.

The comments about how do we all wake up to things that happen around us  is interesting. Look at all the mess that has been created by getting so  many people to contract for adjustable rate mortgages. How sophisticated do you have to be to understand that it will be very expensive when rates go up? And that is easier to understand than what this board might like people to understand.

Hi Lucy, thank you for the compassion about WWII. I think it will really take people like you and I and people like a current jewish person and then maybe a few more students for the broader world to realise, what we are suppose to learn from WWII. Farmost the jewish community must also learn to put the issue into the past, as each time restitution is due to be paid the subject is not dealt with but rather "thrown into the faces of the german people living today" whom had absolutely nothing to do with 1933 -1945.

It must have been unbelievably wild for everyone Lucy, I mean in terms of "realisum" wild. Just as Bruce speaks about his peanut butter jar. I spoke to 2 different persons today again  regarding the subject WWII. One lived during that time in Hamburg -big big city - (female) the other lived during the war in the southern part of germany in a country setting. (male) I let them discribe the war and post war from different standpoints.

While Erika (75) tells what it looked and felt like in Hamburg. (short version) Buildings burning everywhere, the sky litt up in middle of nights by ammo fire, dead bodys laying everywhere, bursted heads, body parts, dead babys and infants, people running in and from chaos, screams, mothers giving birth in the middle of the road, men and women & children stealing food and water, she recalls her mother giving her three children 1 teaspoon of sugar each a day for to give them false energy as there was nothing else to eat. She recalls being scared to sleep at night or during the day, exausted. Fear, smell - OMG - it must have been terrible!

whileas 800 kilometers away Konrad (80) (short version) saw the war only by hearing the bombers flying over until he was sent to the front, where he says had been a complete different planet he thought to himself.

Lucy, Peter H. Kirchner is german the owner of www.jenseits-de.com - I read the transcripts in german yes, the german site is much much broader than the translation into engl. They are working on having everything translated into engl. as we speak. Thats a lot of documentary to cover. If enough people ask it on the site it will be rushed project I am sure.

The Jenseits de site is an afterlife "Research" site, so you have to understand that you won`t really find "instructions" on there, love. Info yes. They try to keep it "non-biased dry cut according to what is being transmitted by the Guides in the afterlife". Here one would label them as "Angels or teachers I suppose". I am positive that during retrievals of Alsyia and all that they have met Guides as well. I dont see much of it spoken about here.

Once have read the infos in its entirety, my life (if I can call it that) will never be the same. I did my own research, to research that what I had read and I am still fuzzy in the head about the information. It makes alot of sense to me and coincides with much of Bruces teachings.

Yes, our souls are here to experience and in experiencing comes improvement. Finding out that there is no "heaven nor satans little hot home" was a blow to my head, as of all things I had to be, I was a sunday school teacher!  So I learned to keep my trap shut about "wishful thinking"..

Now finding out that WWII had the blessings of the highest form of Churches, makes me angry at myself, that I believed in teachings of "man" (which now I find religions are) instead of learning to go inside of myself and believe Gods words ergo meaning: learn spirituality.

Like I said before in a thread. We have to learn, study, read up, compare information, scream it out to the Universe and thus to our fellow mankind: IF WE CONTINUE TO IGNORE AGAPE LOVE ergo PUL amoungst us, 2012 is going to be an ugly ugly thing.

If our Leaders thrive on fear so much, which they have literally raised nations time after time on, then they are about to learn the biggest fear of their life, meaning nature is going to take back that which belongs to it and those surviving will have the chance to talk about "how it was back "now".." so to speak.

Nanner

Nanner wrote on Dec 17^th, 2007 at 8:05am:



I have not looked in detail about allegations of the Catholic Church backing up the Nazis, but its something that I know has often been alleged and written about, at the very least to say that the church did nothing much to actually protest against what Hitler's regime was doing. Hitler also considered himself a Catholic personally. Also, until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, the Catholic Church widely considered the Jews as a race to be guilty of "deicide"(killing God).

However when discussing actions pre-ww2 it is necessary, I think, to point out people did not foresee the death camps etc, and know the extent of the Nazi's hatred of the Jews.

As for religions backing Hitler, another point is that Luther (and I believe that a lot of German Protestants are Lutheran) was an antisemite of similar proportions to Hitler. The Lutherans have now disowned writingas like "On the Jews and Their Lies"  (I mean they say they were Luther's personal view but do not reflect those of the modern church) which must be a great embarassment to them, but I don't suppose they had done so in the 1940s.

Wikipedia:

On the Jews and Their Lies In the treatise, Luther .....  argues that their synagogues and schools should be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."[7]


re. eternal punishment, I don't see how that is fair or constructive for anyone based on one life. Hitler was certainly "evil" but I don't know how to balance the evil acts of one deluded, corrupted man in his short lifetime (who unfortunately got into a position of great power and was supported by many people) against saying he should be tortured eternally. Maybe he just has a lot of lessons to learn...

PS Anti-semitism was also certainly nothing new. For example England expelled all of its Jews in the middle ages between 1290 and 1655 (ie forced them to leave the country), and other European countries acted similarly at one time or another, including Spain and France. The Inquisition burned many Jews at the stake.

hawkeye wrote on Dec 17^th, 2007 at 4:09pm:



  I would say, its not so cut and dried as that.   When our greater selves formulate for our life plans, there is a certain amount of having to conform to more collective and pre-existing patterns and probabilities.   

  The entrance of every Soul, on the deepest level, is for growth.    Our lives are not completely mapped out.   We have certain probable paths, choices, etc.    Freewill is supreme, and we can go off the higher paths that the Soul has prechosen.

  The Soul always desires to be constructive to self and to others, but sometimes it chooses to be put in very challenging, difficult, and stressful situations and relationships.  These are meant to foster strength within self, but at the same time, within the Earth it's always a bit of a gamble, because such very challenging, etc. cirumstances and relationships can also warp the personality and cause it to go off its more constructive and pre-desired paths.   

  Such was Hitler and his life.  Such was Alexander the Great's life.    The Cayce readings on Hitler are very interesting and highly controversial.   At first, and for a bit, Cayce's guides seemed to perceive that Hitler had a lot of potential for good, and had some good ideals. 

  Later on, they seem to indicate that power had corrupted him and his ideals, and that he and Germany were fast becoming a parasite on the face Earth.   When asked by an individual, well before the end of World War 2, what was Hitler's destiny, Cayce's guides just simply said "Death."   

Yet, even these and inharmonious patterns have their place as a greater catalyst for growth.   This however does not mean a Soul wants to become like and do what Hitler did and became like.   No, it ever desires that which is most constructive and helpful for the collective and self.  Hitler it seems, got way off his path, and perhaps that was even a probability factor to begin with, but not what his Soul longed to accomplish.   

  When talking about Alexander the Great, Cayce's guides said that he the ability, the gifts, the real potential to unite the world in a constructive way, but chose to let self run wild, to become purely self aggrandizing and corrupted by power, to become a loathsome body and personality. 

  But, they also say that he came again as Thomas Jefferson, who while he had his faults and issues, he did foster light within himself and within the Earth.   Who was a more constructive leader than not.

  Funny enough, this relates to Monroe and to TMI a bit.   In reading one of Monroe's biography's, i came upon a part wherein Monroe talks about a hippy type, who came to the early TMI and claimed to have said Edgar Cayce said that Thomas Jefferson and him were part of the same Greater self, but when they tested him out, according to Monroe he psychically failed miserably (that doesn't prove or disprove anything actually related to his claims, after all neither Alex nor T.J. were known for their exceptional psychic abilities and talents).   

  Anyways, there was a young child, whose parents received readings from Cayce, whose guides said that this Soul had expressed the lives of Alexander, Thomas Jefferson, and others not so well known.   He was known by the Cayce family, and there is some background history on him, and he was known to have become somewhat of a drifter in his life, oft changing his careers, and focuses.  Seems he had a very strong Saturn energy going on.

  I find it interesting and telling though, that both Monroe and the author of his biography wrote and talked about this account and this individual in such a degrading, 'make fun of', and judgmental manner.    It shows that Monroe wasn't the all knowing psychic that some seemed to believe him to have been.    

Monroe was even deceived by those close to him, some who he thought were his friends and who seemed to have spiritual purposes.  Little did he know at the time, what their true motives were.   Now he does, but that's a different story, he's a little more wiser and aware than he was as a human. 

  Anyways, to some extent, when looking at it in a more narrow perspective, earth lives can be somewhat "hit and miss" sometimes, as regards to doing and accomplishing what we came in to actually do and accomplish.   Plenty enter with originally good intentions and ideals, but this dimension has a distorting effect on the more pure Soul energies.    

  And while it all does seem to work out in the end, we must be ever active in the present and in the now, to do and practice what we know within our hearts of hearts is right and constructive.   There is no future and no past, when reasoning from that perspective, take what is in hand now, and work with it the best way you know how.   If enough of us do this enough while in physical, then will the thousand years of peace come to the Sons and Daughters of men.   Be not passive, but ever be active as the example of he who completely overcame the world within and without.

While I don't want to oversimplify matters, sociology teaches us that virtually ALL minority groups are viewed identically. EX: In the US, each wave of immigrants was treated to precisely the same series of epithets, regardless of who they were or where they came from. At the present moment we're hassling ourselves over "illegal aliens". most of whom are gainfully employed, hard working, honest and faithful. However, because there is a cultural difference between the middle class American and the Latinos, they stand out as a cultural target. Perhaps an even more telling observation is the manner in which Capt Cook and his crew used Australian Aboriginal people as shooting targets because they were confident that these were not really human beings.

According to a cross cultural study I did in the late '60s, in general, anyone whom we can idnetify as different is viewed as the opposite of us. If I am creative, my "enemy" is a dullard. If I am confused, my "enemy" is a scheming mastermind. If I am happy, my "enemy" is morose by nature, and if I am sad, it's becaude my "enemy" is too frivolous and happy. It is this antothetical labelling problem that makes it hard to recognize ourselves in others.

Returning to the core question of what the Jews might have done to draw down the criticism of the world, the answer is that they maintained their traditions. Worse than that, they tended to argue, as they do today, that their religion is valid, even though it is different from that of their neighbors. Obviously, the Good People of Wherever saw this as a deliberate subversion of their culture and a terrible threat. Think, for example, how you'd feel is you were to discover that your neighbors practiced Sokkagakkai, chanting "Namyo renge kyo!", or were devout Muslims who actually knelt down five times a day and thanked Allah, the Merciful and Compassionate, for their material and spiritual blessings, or perhaps your new neighbors might wear a turban and speak Hindi, while they practiced their sinister which requires guests to take off their shoes before entering their home.  All of these are shocking because they violate our expectations, so we take our everyday image of people and invert it, and apply that to them. How dare those people be Different from Me?

In Buddhism, that is called an "attachment", and is one of the reasons that we find life to be less than perfect.

dave

dave_a_mbs wrote on Dec 18^th, 2007 at 3:44pm:


I guess this is true to some extent, thought the Jews seem to have come in for an unusually hard time..

I think it is an encouraging sign of maturity that modern western society now sees it is intrinsically wrong to dislike someone just for having a different faith or race etc etc, adn that we make efforts to try and promote this idea. I am not saying there weren't people who believed such in the past, but being (insert minority group)-ist  was more acceptable in general in the past. I think it is largely a question of better education and communication too.

In ancient times common people in the Roman empire often apparently believed such claims about Christians as that they met in secret for incestuous orgies and ate human flesh (because they called each other "brother and sister", met at private worship followed by meals, called agapes, or "love-feasts"; and believed they were eating the body of Christ in Communion...). They also stubbornly refused to take part in occasions requiring some token hommage to the emperor or traditional gods, which was seen as just being pointlessly obstinate.

If one lived completely according to love, one would find it impossible to consider it acceptable for beings to be stuck in a hell like realm for all of eternity.  I don't see how loving beings could share a state of eternal perfection with each other, if they knew that others are suffering.

As opposed to getting into whether Adolph Hitler (and the many who consorted with him) could've done differently regardless of how he was influenced during his life, I'll take the prodigal son story approach, as Jesus shared in the gospels. God and any being who lives according to the same love and wisdom that God lives according to, loves it when a soul sees the error of its ways, and returns to God and a loving way of being. Just as one would be very happy if one's lost child reversed his or her negative ways of being.

When one wants a wrong doer to be punished for his (or her) actions, one takes part in the same hateful way of being, regardless of how one tries to justify one's vengeful way of viewing things.  

If one wants to experience oneness, one needs to reach the point where when one sees another doing wrong, one understands that another part of one's greater self is doing wrong. Not some being who has absolutely nothing to do with who one is.

That's part of the problem with the devil concept. It supposes that something exists that is other than God. Perhaps some of us just need more time to learn how to make use of our creative energy in a loving way. Especially if we take on a lifetime that has a lot of negative influences. If a person doesn't believe that influences matter much, then why have people such as Jesus bothered with trying to influence people in a positive way?