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On the Authenticity of Guidance (Read 12207 times)

ultra

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On the Authenticity of Guidance
Nov 29^th, 2007 at 5:12pm

Hi everyone,

One very quickly notices here that there is a great deal of discussion on the authenticity of various sources - guides, books, channels, gurus, teachers, etc.

Aside from anyone's assessment of authenticity and personal choice - for themselves - it seems that some cannot fathom the fact that others seek and identify with sources different than their own, and faced with that internal conflict, they feel compelled to project these internal conflicts outwardly (sometimes angrily) in the form of disparaging remarks, put-downs, devaluations and invalidations of others' sources. This hostility is rationalized by various forms of self-referrent 'objective' and 'holistic' reasoning, or unquestioned absolute 'pure Truth' messages from 'voices' - all 'proving' beyond any doubt their righteousness, and therefore giving divine 'license' to disparage and insult others' individual paths - iow's, to attempt to do intentional harm - all for our own good, of course. We are told that this is supposed to be loving, spiritual and very helpful. Some (most?) of it is even justified in the name of some great Master, Who is apparently the involuntary 'leader' of this cult of fundamentalist intolerance, and even though operating at the 'God' level, He somehow can't tolerate various parts of His own Creation, and has 'instructed' these crusading emissaries to 'warn' us all on His behalf to beware of parts of Himself. ....(sigh)....

Meanwhile the actual 'false guru' is perhaps some amalgam of ego, pride, jealousy and insecurity - all dressed up with nowhere to go.

However, and thankfully,
there seem to be a few positive major schools of thought on the subject of guides - besides the negative one discussed above that condescendingly asserts itself into others lives, either interpersonally or communally, and arrogantly demands our submission or destruction:

1) "I don't need a guide/teacher"
2) "I'm fine with my current teacher/guidance"
3) "Everyone and everything is my teacher"
4) "I would like to have a teacher, but searching for one"
5) "I use what my 'guidance' sends my way" (perhaps related to 2 & 3)
6) various combinations of all 5

Regarding the subject of qualification:

With the Aquarian New Age zooming in at a blistering pace, this is a good subject to explore, since many people will perhaps, and increasingly so, have to determine the legitimacy or authenticity of spiritual sources and teachers no matter in what form, and within a huge range of experience, traditions and disciplines/practices.

In one sense (like in #3) your neighborhood auto mechanic could be a guru, or even a working class grandma could teach something valuable, given the appropriate circumstances, necessity, and receptivity of the 'student'. The word 'guru' means teacher, and everything/everyone in life has that potential if our eyes and hearts are open. Its a term that has been well co-opted from another culture, and for good reason. However, there is an implication in it of not simply being any teacher, but of having a very comprehensive and far reaching command of a subject - especially involving difficult obscure subjects - perhaps like life or reality itself.

Some people may come to a point where they want to get serious about learning something, whether piano, basketball, baking bread or speaking Italian. So why not find a teacher with experience in something you may not have yourself? Capisce? Why waste time once you know you want to do something? It makes some sense - the teacher thing - since there are tennis gurus, stock market gurus, fashion gurus, etc. gurus/teachers/guides for everything - so why not one for a subject that is especially obscure - ie: "What is life?", "Who am I?", "Why am I here?", "Where do I go when I die?", etc. These are all good questions that any aspiring person would want to answer.

It always helps to use the genuine experience of someone else as an expedient in learning. A good teacher in any field will never require someone to imitate them, submit to their control, or to simply memorize things - but provided they have the capacity,.only to encourage the discovery of the best, highest expression within the student themselves.

Also, experience knows about mistakes, pitfalls, etc.,has been and done, so can guide more effectively then one can really save time, effort and heartache, or another way to say it - more comprehensive progress, more joy, more satisfaction. No matter what the subject, it helps to have instruction at some points in the process of learning.

For so-called new-age/metaphysical subjects everybody is now getting in on the act. Not only are the shamen and sha-women popping up like mushrooms everywhere (thank you Shirley MacLaine), whereas 25 years ago there were just a handful of ex-hippie recluses, now there is a phenomenon of many, and even more 'literary' shamen who are writing books, or posting on the internet (if they can't get a publisher!) - and lots of them, too. Well, good for them. If they know something, or have experienced something significant, why not share it? Of course, if their knowledge or wisdom is incomplete and/or distorted in some fundamental way, and they mislead people accordingly, even unconsciously, they may get that karma too, in addition to their royalty checks. It is their risk and ours too - the risk inherent in life itself - participation guarantees it. Yet somehow we are sustained, protected, forgiven, and transformed. Its all part of the journey.

That is why it is good to look at anything that comes your way with the view of, "Is this the highest/best source for me?" or "Does this feel like the 'right' thing for me right now?". For me - not for you. Especially important with life-guidance issues. It's one thing to take a recipe from a cookbook, but quite another to trust your life to any questionable 'leader' , whose main qualifications are 'charisma', memorized scriptures, never demonstrated but boasted about 'magical powers', and clever psychological manipulations - or an internal 'voice' that is confused, or inclining towards negative, unaspiring consciousness of any kind. Who needs negativity? Right? And if you do need it - then keep it to yourself please. Please.

Of course, if you run into someone, (or buy their book, see them on TV, etc. - or read their writings on a website) claiming to be, or eager to take on the role of teacher who is less than qualified for whatever reason, or claiming more qualification than is actually embodied, one may learn relatively less or little, or learn things of little real practical-spiritual (not an oxymoron at all) value relative to their search, but perhaps be mentally interesting nonetheless, or possibly even be diversionary from one's true goals. Whether fortunately or unfortunately - you, and not me - have to sort all that out and make it work for yourself - not for me. That is the game.

In a broader more positive sense all experience is really ultimately productive - even so-called 'bad' experiences - since failure is sometimes a good teacher, and is frequently the basis of success, progress, knowledge and wisdom. Trial and error is certainly a well proven method, (though not nearly as expedient as having an experienced teacher). God is in everything - including one's search. Believe that and you can go far, I believe. And if one is really sincere in their quest, no matter how 'stupid' their mistakes and choices, their own soul will eventually illumine and guide them out of any 'deception' or negative situation, provided they want what their soul wants. Their own soul - and that is the beauty of one's soul - it is each person's representative of the highest, as long as we listen to its whispers. But it has too much dignity to scream over the din of the other much grosser members of one's inner 'family' - like the loud arrogant mind. The soul must be really patient.

That said about one's soul, it is still well worth becoming any amount familiar first with the writings and teachings of well established, well regarded legitimate teachers (legitimate perhaps because they listened very well to the song of their own soul) as a basis or preparation that will be a platform of departure for further exploration, because that familiarizes one with the inherent character and qualities of the genuine item. But who are they?

'The Difference Between a False Master and a True Master'

Below is a link to a very good book expressly written on this subject by Sri Chinmoy, a spiritual teacher who's writings are on my reading list and both inspire, and help me in a pragmatic way - this book for example. These brief and concise aphorisms (you can read the whole text in a few minutes) on this subject are imo, a deeply insightful guide to spotting any false teacher, as distinct from a true teacher. I do believe that the principles involved could easily be adapted to apply to writings, people, voices, channels, guides - or any 'source' which could potentially play a role of spiritual leadership in someone's life, whether for a minute or many incarnations.

Since this subject is so prominent in discussions here, I wanted to offer what imo, hopefully is a positive contribution in that vein. Of course, you can judge for yourself, even as the writings speak for themselves.

www.srichinmoylibrary.com/false-true-master/
(

Once you open the link, start with #1, then click 'next' in the lower right to get the next aphorism

)

I hope this is helpful,

be well

- u

"What the soul sees and has experienced, that it knows; the rest is appearance, prejudice and opinion."

- Sri Aurobindo

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AhSoLaoTsuAhhOmmra Ex Member	Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance Reply #1 - Nov 29^th, 2007 at 5:46pm I would say that a teacher's example, and how he or she actually lived, is much more important and influential than their words, however wise or flowery they may seem. Also, i'm of the opinion that those who preach one thing and then act another, tend not to be too credible. Just an opinion of course.
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recoverer

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #2 - Nov 29^th, 2007 at 6:28pm

Ultra:

Comments below within double quotation marks:

ultra wrote on Nov 29^th, 2007 at 5:12pm:

Hi everyone,

One very quickly notices here that there is a great deal of discussion on the authenticity of various sources - guides, books, channels, gurus, teachers, etc.

""Thank goodness. It is really quite refreshing if you consider how often people don't tend to discuss such things.""

Aside from anyone's assessment of authenticity and personal choice - for themselves

""It isn't a matter of what is necessary for one's self. It is more a matter of whether a source of info if false. If it's false, it's false, if it's valid, it's valid. Adolph Hitler doesn't become a great man because current day Nazies believe he's a great man.""

- it seems that some cannot fathom the fact that others seek and identify with sources different than their own, and faced with that internal conflict, they feel compelled to project these internal conflicts outwardly (sometimes angrily) in the form of disparaging remarks, put-downs, devaluations and invalidations of others' sources.

""You make such a statement about me because you're being defensive. Not because you actually know where I'm coming from. Again, it's the Adolph Hitler principle. If a source of information is false, it is false. Certainly one can see that a source of information is false, without having some sort of internal conflict.""

This hostility is rationalized by various forms of self-referrent 'objective' and 'holistic' reasoning, or unquestioned absolute 'pure Truth' messages from 'voices' - all 'proving' beyond any doubt their righteousness, and therefore giving divine 'license' to disparage and insult others' individual paths - iow's, to attempt to do intentional harm - all for our own good, of course. We are told that this is supposed to be loving, spiritual and very helpful. Some (most?) of it is even justified in the name of some great Master, Who is apparently the involuntary 'leader' of this cult of fundamentalist intolerance, and even though operating at the 'God' level, He somehow can't tolerate various parts of His own Creation, and has 'instructed' these crusading emissaries to 'warn' us all on His behalf to beware of parts of Himself. ....(sigh)....

""First of all, I came to understand much of what I understand about false gurus before I ever made contact with spirit guidance. Spirit guidance has confirmed some of what I've found, but mostly they leave it up to me. I found out about Seth (Jane Roberts) after I made contact with spirit guidance. Nevertheless, spirit guidance didn't have to tell me that Seth is a false source. I was able to figure it out for myself. Regarding ACIM, I started to get brainwashed by it, and spirit guidance came to my rescue and helped me see what was happening. When I took some time to discriminate the course, I saw why my guidance did as they did.

There have been occasions when I prayed to God and Christ and asked if ACIM came from Christ? The responses I received were always "no." If you believe there is something wrong with praying in such a way, I can't see why.

Regarding your comment about God not being able tolerate some parts of his creation, this comment really shows a lack of clarity on your part. Say a really loving parent has a child. For some reason this child goes astray and starts doing things to hurt others. Isn't it possible that such a parent would do what best serves everybody, without losing love for the child who has gone astray? If your answer is yes, then perhaps you can understand why people might be inspired by love when they try let people know about sources that mislead people, even though their reward is having people throw stones at them.""

Meanwhile the actual 'false guru' is perhaps some amalgam of ego, pride, jealousy and insecurity - all dressed up with nowhere to go.

However, and thankfully,
there seem to be a few [i]positive major schools of thought on the subject of guides - besides the negative one discussed above that condescendingly asserts itself into others lives, either interpersonally or communally, and arrogantly demands our submission or destruction:

1) "I don't need a guide/teacher"
""Different people have different spiritual goals. Some will prosper with the help of a guide, some will prosper without the help of a guide. However, even those people who don't make conscious contact with a guide, do so unconsciously when they chose to live according to love and inner wisdom. This is because love and inner wisdom can't be separated from the oneness that all light beings abide according to. One can be pulled away from such guidance, when one follows a false guru. The degree is dependent upon how good a person is at 1) being inspired only by the true things a false guru says; 2) not being misled by the false things a false guru says; and 3) being able to listen to inner guidance despite the misleading things a false guru says.""

2) "I'm fine with my current teacher/guidance"
""If a person is in touch with genuine guidance, this makes sense. If they aren't, eventually they will have to wake up and smell the coffee.""

3) "Everyone and everything is my teacher"
""This is true to an extent. But to follow such an approach in an non-discriminative manner is folly. It is a matter of how quickly a person wants to spiritually grow. If he or she wants to be misled for a while this is his or her choice.""

4) "I would like to have a teacher, but searching for one"
""I figure there is bound to be some genuine physical teachers. But how to find? I've found it has made a huge difference to make contact with my spirit guidance. I won't reach out to just anybody. Before I meditate I always put my hands together and say to God, Christ, my higher self, and the beings of love and light who help me. I mention Christ not because I read about him the Bible, but because I've had a numer of experiences which have shown me that he is genuine spiritual guidance, and have received much support from him.""

5) "I use what my 'guidance' sends my way" (perhaps related to 2 & 3)
""I figure a person can make contact with all kinds of spirits. Therefore, just as one can be misled by a physical teacher, one can be misled by a spirit. I didn't come to trust my spirit guidance just like that. I was very careful about it. For numerous reasons I now know that my guidance exists at Christ level. Such guidance can help a person in ways that go far beyond what a person will find in a book.""
6) various combinations of all 5

Regarding the subject of qualification:

With the Aquarian New Age zooming in at a blistering pace, this is a good subject to explore, since many people will perhaps, and increasingly so, have to determine the legitimacy or authenticity of spiritual sources and teachers no matter in what form, and within a huge range of experience, traditions and disciplines/practices.

""I've done so, and found that many can't be trusted. If one isn't allowed to come to such a conclusion, perhaps one shouldn't take part in such a search, because they'll just be led astray all over the place. ""

In one sense (like in #3) your neighborhood auto mechanic could be a guru, or even a working class grandma could teach something valuable, given the appropriate circumstances, necessity, and receptivity of the 'student'. The word 'guru' means teacher, and everything/everyone in life has that potential if our eyes and hearts are open. Its a term that has been well co-opted from another culture, and for good reason. However, there is an implication in it of not simply being any teacher, but of having a very comprehensive and far reaching command of a subject - especially involving difficult obscure subjects - perhaps like life or reality itself.

""There is a big difference between learning something from someone who doesn't make the pretense of being some sort of special master, and learning something from someone who asserts they are a special master and intentionally misleads people.""

Some people may come to a point where they want to get serious about learning something, whether piano, basketball, baking bread or speaking Italian. So why not find a teacher with experience in something you may not have yourself? Capisce? Why waste time once you know you want to do something? It makes some sense - the teacher thing - since there are tennis gurus, stock market gurus, fashion gurus, etc. gurus/teachers/guides for everything - so why not one for a subject that is especially obscure - ie: "What is life?", "Who am I?", "Why am I here?", "Where do I go when I die?", etc. These are all good questions that any aspiring person would want to answer.

""I guess this would be okay if the people who pretend to be masters of who am I and such were actually masters, but if they aren't, they aren't.""

It always helps to use the genuine experience of someone else as an expedient in learning. A good teacher in any field will never require someone to imitate them, submit to their control, or to simply memorize things - but provided they have the capacity,.only to encourage the discovery of the best, highest expression within the student themselves.

""Same answer as above, plus the fact of how the gurus who do exist usually do use various methods of mind control. It might seem hard to believe, but I've seen what numerous gurus are about, and the picture isn't pretty. My belief is that if somebody actually did know a lot about spiritual truth, he or she probably would distance his or herself from the approaches false gurus take. Partly because they wouldn't want to be associated with false teachers, and partly because a similar approach would be false.""

Also, experience knows about mistakes, pitfalls, etc.,has been and done, so can guide more effectively then one can really save time, effort and heartache, or another way to say it - more comprehensive progress, more joy, more satisfaction. No matter what the subject, it helps to have instruction at some points in the process of learning.

""I basically responded to this, when I did the 1) 2) and 3) thing above.""

For so-called new-age/metaphysical subjects everybody is now getting in on the act. Not only are the shamen and sha-women popping up like mushrooms everywhere (thank you Shirley MacLaine), whereas 25 years ago there were just a handful of ex-hippie recluses, now there is a phenomenon of many, and even more 'literary' shamen who are writing books, or posting on the internet (if they can't get a publisher!) - and lots of them, too. Well, good for them. If they know something, or have experienced something significant, why not share it? Of course, if their knowledge or wisdom is incomplete and/or distorted in some fundamental way, and they mislead people accordingly, even unconsciously, they may get that karma too, in addition to their royalty checks. It is their risk and ours too - the risk inherent in life itself - participation guarantees it. Yet somehow we are sustained, protected, forgiven, and transformed. Its all part of the journey.

""I'm not against people becoming spiritual teachers of some kind without being all knowing masters, as long as they are honest about. For example, I'm gratefull that Robert Monroe and Bruce Moen wrote their books even though I don't believe they are all knowing masters. The thing is, they make no pretense of being all knowing masters. They simply share what they have found. Certainly there is nothing wrong with this.""

That is why it is good to look at anything that comes your way with the view of, "Is this the highest/best source for me?" or "Does this feel like the 'right' thing for me right now?". For me - not for you. Especially important with life-guidance issues. It's one thing to take a recipe from a cookbook, but quite another to trust your life to any questionable 'leader' , whose main qualifications are 'charisma', memorized scriptures, never demonstrated but boasted about 'magical powers', and clever psychological manipulations - or an internal 'voice' that is confused, or inclining towards negative, unaspiring consciousness of any kind. Who needs negativity? Right? And if you do need it - then keep it to yourself please. Please.

""These points were addressed in other ways above, and responded to. I will add one thing. Why is it okay for you to promote a guru like Chinmoy, but it isn't okay for people who know better to make comments without your coming up with a "keep it to yourself" attitude?""

Of course, if you run into someone, (or buy their book, see them on TV, etc. - or read their writings on a website) claiming to be, or eager to take on the role of teacher who is less than qualified for whatever reason, or claiming more qualification than is actually embodied, one may learn relatively less or very little, or learn things of little real practical-spiritual (not an oxymoron at all) value, but perhaps be mentally interesting nonetheless, or possibly even be diversionary from one's true goals. Fortunately or unfortunately you, and not me, have to sort it all out and make it work for yourself, not for me.

""Further above you wrote that teachers can come in different forms. Can't some teachers come in the form of a person who has found out about a false guru before others have found out about a false guru? Is life a game where everybody has to find out about a fale guru, before anybody can say anything? Perhaps you might thank me some day. Somebody who might've been led astray by the Chinmoy links you provide, won't be led astray because they received additional information.""

In a broader more positive sense all experience is really ultimately productive - even so-called 'bad' experiences - since failure is sometimes a good teacher, and is frequently the basis of success, progress, knowledge and wisdom. Trial and error is certainly a well proven method, (though not nearly as expedient as having an experienced teacher). God is in everything - including one's search. Believe that and you can go far, I believe. And if one is really sincere in their quest, no matter how 'stupid' their mistakes and choices, their own soul will eventually illumine and guide them out of any 'deception' or negative situation, provided they want what their soul wants. Their own soul - and that is the beauty of one's soul - it is each person's representative of the highest, as long as we listen to its whispers. But it has too much dignity to scream over the din of the other much grosser members of one's inner 'family' - like the loud arrogant mind. The soul must be really patient.

""God might be in everything, but not everything expresses this fact. Each of us is free to turn our God like nature into something that is quite contrary to God. Therefore, I don't agree with your justifications for misleading sources above. Yes it is true that sometimes we learn from our mistakes, but the false guru mistake is a mistake many people can do without.""

That said about one's soul, it is still well worth becoming any amount familiar first with the writings and teachings of well established, well regarded legitimate teachers (legitimate perhaps because they listened very well to the song of their own soul) as a basis or preparation that will be a platform of departure for further exploration, because that familiarizes one with the inherent character and qualities of the genuine item. But who are they?

'The Difference Between a False Master and a True Master'

Below is a link to a very good book expressly written on this subject by Sri Chinmoy, a spiritual teacher who's writings are on my reading list and both inspire, and help me in a pragmatic way - this book for example. These brief and concise aphorisms (you can read the whole text in a few minutes) on this subject are imo, a deeply insightful guide to spotting any false teacher, as distinct from a true teacher. I do believe that the principles involved could easily be adapted to apply to writings, people, voices, channels, guides - or any 'source' which could potentially play a role of spiritual leadership in someone's life, whether for a minute or many incarnations.

Since this subject is so prominent in discussions here, I wanted to offer what imo, hopefully is a positive contribution in that vein. Of course, you can judge for yourself, even as the writings speak for themselves.

www.srichinmoylibrary.com/false-true-master/

Once you open the link, click 'next' in the lower right to get the next aphorism

""For goodness sake! That's all people need. A false guru telling people what a real guru is all about. Perhaps Adolph Hitler can come back from the grave and tell us what it means to not be a racist.""

I hope this is helpful,

be well

- u

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recoverer

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Posts: 5027
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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #3 - Nov 29^th, 2007 at 6:58pm

Ahso:

I thought of something else. Another thing false gurus do is get their followers to follow codes of conduct that don't make sense. They do so because each time a follower makes excuses and does something that doesn't make sense, they give away more of their power and ability to think critically, to their guru. Before you know it, they become brainwashed, and it takes alot before they can see their way out of their brainwashed state of mind. Many people are brainwashed in such a way.

False gurus sometimes use such an approach to weed out those who can't be influenced. If a person won't follow a particular protocol, chances are this person can't be brainwashed and it is best that he or she leaves the group before he or she influences others in a manner the guru doesn't consider preferential.

It is possible that Sri Chinmoy got his followers to be physical fitness nuts not just for the reason I wrote on my last post, but also as a way of getting them to have the mind set to always conform to what guru says.

Some people were afraid to leave his group because they were told if they do so they would lose his protection and evil spirits would come after them.

I don't fault people for showing devotion to their gurus. I believe it is very admirable that they can be so devoted to a person they consider to be a representative of that which is divine. The problem is that followers who are taken in by false gurus give credit to people who aren't the divine representatives they claim to be. Plus, a real light being wouldn't look for subservience in the manner false gurus often require. If one is with a real master, one will always be free to question.

Some false gurus are more clever than other false gurus. They'll say things similar to what I said in the above paragraph, yet they'll still find ways to control people. They'll actually use a false display of honesty, in order to substantiate themselves. This is sort of a form of reverse psychology. People will say, "if he says this, then he must be a real master." But it is all a part of the con. Some people do the guru circuit and find out what works, before they become false gurus.

Ahso:

If a person had enough understanding, they could see that Chinmoy is a false guru without knowing about the details of his life. They could do so simply by examining his teachings.

Here is something that comes to mind without having to refer to what he wrote. One thing false gurus do so their followers won't notice their lack of spiritual growth, is have their followers go after other goals. This is very possibly why Chinmoy placed such an emphasis on having his followers obtain certain physical goals. For example, the followers I met were marathon runners.

Quote:

I would say that a teacher's example, and how he or she actually lived, is much more important and influential than their words, however wise or flowery they may seem.

Also, i'm of the opinion that those who preach one thing and then act another, tend not to be too credible. Just an opinion of course.

« Last Edit: Nov 29^th, 2007 at 8:55pm by recoverer »

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LaffingRain

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Choose this Day

Posts: 5249
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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #4 - Nov 29^th, 2007 at 11:10pm

thanks Ultra, theres 79 sayings and i enjoyed each one; gave me that little happy feeling i needed.

I think this thread is a vast subject; it may even take one person a lifetime to stand in the shoes of the "true master," while another may get it right away.

I just thought of a tune Bob Dylan wrote that I have on my website because it explained to me something fundamental about my own life. I thought I'd share it in regards to this topic.

I'd like to thank Dylan here for this, he somehow captured my life on paper:

Bob Dylans "Every Grain of Sand"
In the time of my confession in the hour of my deepest need when the pool of tears beneath my feet flood every newborn seed
There's a dying voice within me reaching out somewheres toiling in the danger and the marrows of despair
don't have the inclination to look back on any mistake, like Cain I now behold this chain of events that I must break
in the fury of the moment I can see the masters hand, in every leaf that trembles in every grain of sand
oh the flowers of indulgence, the weeds of yesteryear like criminals choke the breath of life from conscious and good cheer
but the sun beat down upon the steps of time to light my way, to ease the pain of idleness and the memory of decay
I gaze into the doorway of temptations angry face and every time I pass that way I always hear my name
then onward in my journey I come to understand that every hair is numbered like every grain of sand
I have gone from rags to riches in the sorrow of the night, in the violence of a summers dream in the chill of a wintry light
In the bitter dance of lonliness fading into space in the broken mirror of innocence on each forgotten face
I hear the ancient footsteps like the motion of the sea sometimes I turn theres someone there other times it's only me
I'm hanging in the balance of the reality of man like every sparrow falling like every grain of sand.
_________

Also, in regards to Ultra's point about any person can be another persons temporary guru, I feel this is true.
It might depend if you have decided to be on a heart path versus an intellectual path, it may be that you might even see a distinction between a heart path and intellectual path, when later on, you can see there is really not as much distinction between the mind and the heart as was first supposed in earlier years of your life. speaking personally of course.

We must count up the little things which bring us joy, as our pathways will be joyless and dismal unless we look for and focus on how to bring from chaos, peace, or joy.

I myself am this tiny speck of sand, unable to alleviate the suffering of the world, yet like Ultra has mentioned, I will not give forth of recriminations or negativity as it only escalates the suffering, while masquerading as "good for you."
Today, I ordered some new car insurance. not a fun project to do. A young man took my information. i could tell, by empathy, he was doing his job and was efficient, ask all the right questions, but was not a master guru I was talking to

I listened to spirit.
I ask, is there some gift I can give this most ordinary circumstance to this young man to let him know I appreciate him serving me?

I do not think this in words; it is what I do constantly. Spirit answers me. By the time we were done with our business, I had made him laugh without trying. if I can make someone laugh I am helping the world because there is love in laughter.
He tried to help me more, we were like old friends by the time we were done.
I am not bragging or trying to get people to be amateur comedians. I am thinking though, that if the whole world were to ask themselves in any relationship whatsoever, of short or long term, of family, or of business, I am thinking, if you approach it without expectations, and ask spirit, your intuition, your internal guidance, please, what service can I perform, for this other, right now, what do they need to hear? to give them a sense they are doing fine?
We have our taskmasters in this world, and those with their righteous tough love, then we have those who have a different job, perhaps to bring some laughter of love.

It served to make me happy, to see another whose mood was changed to happy. even for just a few minutes. kindness is so easy to extend and the rewards are so great.

All those books we read, they are as nothing compared to genuine experience in the heart area.
Then I am reminded of what Bruce said here once when interacting with us: Someone asks what he thought true enlightenment might be like:
He said, as near as I can tell it would be when a person always expresses a thought of love in response to anyone, or any situation.

to see that basic goodness operating in mankind, you will see many heroes coming to the fore in emergencies..they too are coming from love.

If you read Bruce's books, it is about PUL energy. Bruce is not my guru, but he is a very good friend of mine.

Who takes away death's sting deprives life of bitterness

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blink Ex Member	Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance Reply #5 - Nov 30^th, 2007 at 11:03am Startling me out of my reverie is a picture in my mind's eye of at least twenty people lining up hurriedly, "Lemme, no lemme, no let ME be the next false guide!" They are keen to go...lined up at the gate..... love, blink
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vajra

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #6 - Nov 30^th, 2007 at 11:39am

I'm another in the camp that says that how we relate to teachers, traditions, books and other forms of guidance is a very complicated business, and not open to simple black and white treatments.

For sure there's misguided guidance out there. Some unintentionally, some probably intentionally. An often quoted saying is that no sooner (in spiritual terms) do we learn perhaps to walk than we want to teach others to run. When we'd do far better to work on raising our own consciousness.

I guess the reality for most of us is that while teaching and traditions range from perfectly realised (whatever that means, but for sure it's very rare) down to chancers we'll (if we want to get off ground zero) end up working with somebody or something less than perfect.

The other very big dimension in all of this is that of our own view. 'View' doesn't mean the trivial matter of our opinion on a single issue, it's instead the level and nature of the whole cognitive framework by which we make sense of our 'reality'.

We can't hope to comprehend never mind judge teachings based on a significantly higher view than our own. The old saying that a genius appears a fool to somebody at a lower level comes to mind. As does the Tibetan Buddhist tradition of crazy wisdom.

Point being that the application of simplistic dualistic logic and absolutes doesn't get us too far in this space. But that we each depending on our level/view need differing teachings.

To repeat. Lightness/openness/spaciousness and correct process are surely key. That's not some default suspension of discrimination. That's the cultivation of the ability to stay open and easy when faced with information that conflicts with our own belief system. To rest easily with the irritation it causes long enough for the whisper of insight/intuition/Grace to filter the message through that there may be something in it. (or not) And to if we feel there is to have the guts to act against our conditioning. Not to mention distinguish between this and the selfish promptings of ego - sometimes so crude and obvious ( Wink

mostly to others I have to admit), but sometimes so very subtle and cleverly mixed up in what passes for care for others. To give it a whirl.

Most of us in this situation do not open. We react intensely and hostilely to immediately close down our awareness, for example to rationalise away the problem in terms of our preconceptions. To prop up our belief systems, to protect the status quo or worse still to clear the space for us to indulge egostistical urges that an only harm others and ourselves. Before we are even properly aware of what's going down the call is made. Thus we condemn ourselves to circling endlessly in our cocoon, the goldfish bowl of selective perceptions and obscurations by which we maintain delusion.

We're basically like almost blind people trying to get out of a maze - if we panic (move to protect the ego position) we drown out the small voice of insight that shows us a way. It's like being led by an apparently half witted dwarf who can only whisper, whom we're pretty sure is a fool, and whose every second word when we manage to hear it seems non-sensical. It's far from infallible - we'll get it wrong some of the time, and other times our insight will only be locally useful. (luckily Grace or basic goodness seems to win through in the end)

Meaning we can never grasp to any position. (this is the mark of a lack of openness) Not every teaching is 100% applicable in all circumstances, or even correct at all. Even if it is the little matter of our use of language or our view may prevent our drawing the correct meaning from it. Or we may outgrow a previously reliable teacher. Or he/she may get off the rails, or make an isolated error.

Perhaps the only solid thing we can say about guidance is that what matters is as above getting our own process working right. Which is where the twin pillars of meditation and our working to constructively filter teachings (pearl fishing) come in.

What comes out will be our on truth, but funnily enough we'll also tend to arrive at the same place in the end - the many paths and the cows getting to the barn just the same thing again. It's wonderful to think that there's meaning in life, that the guidance we need is always available IF we can ask for it without prejudging the answer.

The one thing we can never have on this stuff is grounding. To grasp after this is to deny reality. Progress is conditional on our living with groundlessness.

There's little to be gained in arguing the merits of this or that tradition or teacher unless by our own work we've created our own context and questions we need to answer. And we don't need to worry about questions that may arise further down the path until we get there - to do so just creates aimless intellectual circlings that leave us stuck on ground zero. A drowning man is as happy to get a hand up from a thief as from anybody else.

It's for these reasons that I personally struggle with approaches that based on narrow one dimensional points seek to almost arbitrarily label whole traditions and bodies of to varying degrees valid teaching (whatever their source) as rubbish - or place others on a pedestal as perfect.....

« Last Edit: Nov 30^th, 2007 at 2:07pm by N/A »

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dave_a_mbs

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #7 - Nov 30^th, 2007 at 12:55pm

Whoopee - I'm with Blink on this one. Let me be the one to set it all straight. - But now that I'm at the head of the line and have everyone's attention, I seem to have misplaced my notes on the Ultimate Truth of Life, the Universe and Everything. Sad

- However I heard once that the answer is "42".

Whatever guidance we have is only understandable in terms of whatever we already can conceive. If God Herself came to us and wrote it all down and signed it with a big red G, we'd only be able to understand that portion of which we already have made personal preparation - just like if Einstein came to us and wrote it all down in tensor notation and Cristoffel symbols.

This is the essential problem of "tripping out", whether with meditation or drugs - we get a lot of pretty colors and blinking lights, but the actual message transmitted to us is no more than our internal receiver can accommodate. Wisdom arises, it seems, from personal effort, and all the rest is quite possibly nothing but echoes of our own striving.

dave

life is too short to drink sour wine

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LaffingRain Super Member Offline Choose this Day Posts: 5249 Arizona Gender:	Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance Reply #8 - Nov 30^th, 2007 at 1:41pm Dave said: However I heard once that the answer is "42". wait Dave. didn't you say the answer was 777 times 777 once? lets see, 7x6=42, hmmm. let me get my notes here... thanks everybody for a great stimulating topic!
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Rondele

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #9 - Nov 30^th, 2007 at 2:34pm

Instead of taking sides in this back and forth exchange, let's take the stock market guru analogy mentioned by ultra.

I think there is wisdom in that analogy. I have amassed a 7 figure portfolio, but not before taking substantial losses along the way.

You see, at first I followed market "gurus" who advised either to buy certain stocks or to sell them. I thought they were smart folks so I followed their advice.

I ended up with some terrible losses.

Then, I stopped listening to them. Instead, I studied more objective "guides" about investing. Teachings such as diversification and having a stop-loss order, and understanding the psychology of the market. Plus a lot of other more generic things.

Now, I have more money than I ever dreamed possible.

So what did I learn? Never, ever listen to those who have a vested interest in the outcome. I learned that there are people who pump up certain stocks for the sole purpose of dumping them when they go up. I learned that those who pass along "hot tips" are usually wrong.

In other words, I learned a basic lesson that can be applied to almost anything else, including this whole debate about gurus. Namely, disregard anyone on this website or on any other who advocate a specific book or guru. They have an emotional investment in what they promote, whether it be ACIM or some swami somewhere.

They bought into a book or guru, and they want you to do the same. Maybe they are sincere and they really think they found the Source of Wisdom. Or maybe their investment in the book/guru is so great that they simply cannot or will not see why other folks disagree and in fact get uptight when they do.

Like ultra....I pretty much went along with much of what he said until the end. Until he put a link on his post, taking us to Sri Chinmov who I guess he endorses. To me, that took the wind out of the sails that he had previously hoisted.

So bottom line: why don't we all refrain from pushing ACIM or Seth or Elias no matter how much we think those sources are beneficial. And let's also refrain from putting such material down no matter how much we think it is false. Truth is, we simply cannot change each other's mind nor should we think it is our mission to do so.

Getting back to the stock market analogy- I have friends who ask me to give them advice on dealing with their investments. I politely decline. What works for me might be disastrous to them. Because it's not just the specific stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc.......it's also having the discipline and judgment to avoid getting carried away with "winners" and having the patience to stay the course when others are running scared.

You see, it's not enough that someone follows your advice and gloms onto Seth/ACIM or follows the opposite advice and returns to the Bible. They are not you, plain and simple.

Why not push yourselves away from your computers and try going out and helping others? Find a way to do something for someone who is in need. A few days of doing that will be worth far more than countless years on a conversation board, which is sort of like an endless merry-go-round. Fun, but it really doesn't get you very far.

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blink

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #10 - Nov 30^th, 2007 at 6:02pm

It's kind of like pie, isn't it?

Really, like pie.

At Thanksgiving dinner we had a pumpkin pie that had a message spelled out in pie crust and baked on top of the pie. My sister was handed a piece on which the lone letters "p" and "u" were located.

"Hey, my pie says peeuuuuuuew!" she exclaimed in a loud voice (an expression which normally means "smelly" so that a person would most likely hold their nose).

However, from my point of view, on the opposite side of our table, all I had to do was turn the piece of pie around to put a smile on her face. When I turned it around, the word "up" appeared before her eyes, effortlessly, as if by magic.

"It depends on which side of the pie you're on." I said.

Yeah, life's like that....just like pie.

love, blink

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ultra

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #11 - Dec 1^st, 2007 at 12:03am

Hi Rondele,

I think I very much get what you are saying on a number of points.

Unfortunately, perhaps I wasn't clear enough in qualifying my recommendation in the opening post above, and I apologize for that. So please give me a chance to redeem myself here:

dave_a_mbs said: Quote:

Whatever guidance we have is only understandable in terms of whatever we already can conceive

What Dave is saying here also applies, in that people may only authentically share what they themselves have experienced. I hope that makes sense. I can only make an effective, relevant contribution based on my own experience (who else's would I be offering?) - and as such, those recommendations based on an individual experience may take a certain form (like a book) that may be unfamiliar, or different from yours.
Yet, in a way, that is the very point of sharing.

Also, even though in this case, I thought the recommended book was 110% relevant to my own topic, still, the mere sharing or suggesting of experience and resources does not necessarily constitute a mandate to adopt anyone else's individual path, or even minute fragment thereof, and if anything, that has always been my personal position. I hope I am being clear here.

However, if I created any other impression in the post I do apologize again, but also I would ask you to look at your own conditioning and assumptions concerning others' intentions, and why you report feeling this way.

Rondele said: Quote:

Why not push yourselves away from your computers and try going out and helping others? Find a way to do something for someone who is in need. A few days of doing that will be worth far more than countless years on a conversation board, which is sort of like an endless merry-go-round. Fun, but it really doesn't get you very far.

This is related to the above issue:
I dare say that some may find the internet and this format a perfect venue for helping others. Indeed, it was probably the intention of Bruce Moen, to provide the space for just such a reason.

This is a community 'space', and some people come here to share their thoughts, observations, experiences and resources. This is a form of self-giving and should not be underestimated in its potential depth of impact on others in a positive way. Those offerings may end up being helpful to others who come here seeking something they would like to find, and for one crazy reason or another we have all found ourselves milling around the same town square, both as givers and receivers.

On the receiving end, this sharing also has many benefits, including the possibility of connecting with something useful that was previously not known about, or maybe getting the opportunity to appreciate the unique manifestations of the amazing diversity within this Creation we all share.

As to why and how the offering in public space of anyone's particular means or expedients became understood implicity or explictly as some kind of attempted enforcement or imposition on others, or an invitation to a competition on bashing and devaluing those beliefs** or sources - I am at a loss to explain. Is it a cultural thing? Lack of education? No manners learned as a child? I don't know.

Perhaps I am naive, but I always just assumed that in any public discourse, what people offer is their own pov unless otherwise indicated. Such being the case, it seems axiomatic that one can therefore take or leave what is offered. AND - Offering is different than insisting. And negative bashing is different than offering.

"This is what worked for me.", is not the same as, "Mine is the only way.", "What you are doing is wrong.", or, "You must do this, or you are going to burn in hell for eternity", etc.

Many people here reference writings, websites, teachers/gurus of all sorts. According to my feeling, sometimes I will pursue a suggestion. Sometimes I make a note for later. Sometimes I will ignore it entirely. It is my choice and it is yours too. But please don't assert that because someone is offering something from their experience, a source that they feel is pertinent, or possibly helpful in exploring any topic, that something is being 'pushed' onto you, or 'promoted' at you. Nor is it 'advice' - just because a source is made available - and may be new, unfamiliar, or different from your own values or experience. Do you realize that there is an emotional investment in rejection too? Especially the out-of-hand categoric variety.

Like vajra brought up, it is wise to be open and alert, because many times these contacts, connections and 'roadsigns' may not only be very essential to our quest, and may have been asked for - but are frequently very subtle in their genesis, and therefore can be easily missed. We do it all the time. You know how when you are driving and because of whatever distraction, internal or external, you miss the important exit? I guess it is the same thing in the stock market too.

For instance, I congratulate you on your success in investing, yet I hardly believe that because you are sharing this, you are somehow insisting that I should do the same. I see the possibility through you, and am inspired by your example of success, but my choice to follow you or not is my own and I accept that.

Btw, if you ever get the, 'money is evil' thing from 'spiritual people', the following may be helpful.
http://intyoga.online.fr/mothr04.htm

Be well,

- u

**

I have to say, being a fairly new member - some of the responses I have seen to others and myself, even on this very thread, I find quite shockingly rude, distasteful, and totally uncalled for and inappropriate. Hitler?!?

« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2007 at 3:43am by ultra »

"What the soul sees and has experienced, that it knows; the rest is appearance, prejudice and opinion."

- Sri Aurobindo

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Rondele

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #12 - Dec 1^st, 2007 at 10:30am

Hi ultra-

Good post, thanks.

Just a couple of points to be sure all is clear.

Your example of <<This is what worked for me.", is not the same as, "Mine is the only way.", "What you are doing is wrong.", or, "You must do this, or you are going to burn in hell for eternity", etc.>> is something with which I agree strongly. No argument whatsoever.

You are also correct in saying that I am not insisting people do the same thing as I did re. the stock market. In fact I went out of my way to make that point, and the only reason I mentioned it was to expand the analogy in your original post about gurus.

In fact I went further by saying I won't even give advice to those friends who ask me for it because they are not me. It's not enough to have the exact same portfolio, because once they got it who knows how they would manage it??

So my overall point remains: I might think I found the perfect book or guru. But if I recommend it to you, it might trigger what I like to call the "law of unintended consequences." Because you are not me, who knows what actions or reactions the book/guru might have in you? Maybe you would get the same insights and inspirations, maybe not.

A good example is ACIM. First time I read it I was carried away. I finally found all the answers. I found the Holy Grail. Or so I thought. Now my reaction is 180 degrees different. When I first read it, I was a lot younger and didn't have much in the way of experiences or, frankly, intellectual depth. I was easily influenced. Like a kid with a new toy. Now, I wish that book came with a bright red warning label. There was a time when I urged others to read it, and I even bought a copy for someone as a gift. Now I deeply regret doing so. It was a huge mistake.

Anyway we can belabor this point until the cows come home. Re. this conversation board, yes it is a place where we can share. Is that the real reason Bruce put it on the net? Maybe so, maybe not. It's also a good marketing tool to promote books and workshops. We need to always look at things in terms of not only what they seem to be but also what other motivations might be present in the background.

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dave_a_mbs

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #13 - Dec 1^st, 2007 at 2:08pm

Whether it's the "I Ching", ACIM, the Bible, a Tarot deck, or Ram Das' book "Be Here Now", seems like it's ultimately up to us to make it work.

Actually, Alysia, the Hitchiker's Guide was not specific as to the meaning of "42" - upon which hangs the tale ... But intrerestingly, in Unix, the expression "777" means that everybody gets access.

I'm glad that Rondele made a killing the market. My experience differs - to make money with the market, it always seemed to me that the easy way was to publish a book on how to make money in the market. Maybe this is a hint where all my money went back then

dave

life is too short to drink sour wine

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LaffingRain

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Re: On the Authenticity of Guidance
Reply #14 - Dec 1^st, 2007 at 4:06pm

dave_a_mbs wrote on Dec 1^st, 2007 at 2:08pm:

dave

so Dave, not to change the bashing and all, but what is "Unix?" or maybe if I'm curious, I should google it? that is totally funny about 777. fits my philosophy to a T.

Ultra, thanks for your excellent leavening of the loaf. I'm amazed you put your energy here and don't get anything back! whew...

Dave, another great leavener poster. my pov. heres my commercial, and everybody is a commercial for something.

I know a psychologist turned stock broker. this guy is remarkable. He is somehow able to tune into the collective fear area. we discussed this briefly when i was his housekeeper.

On his shelves was ACIM. one day I was complaining to him his keyboard keys were cruddy, get up and let me clean them! haha! then I spied ACIM on his shelf. I told him surprised, the books changed my life. he didn't say anything, a man of few words but exudes a type of good will towards all people in his energy.

so he divulged he used to be a psychologist. So, as is my way, as I too thought it would be better to be a psychologist than a stockbroker, I answered WHY did you quit?
It was an unsatisfying field for him to be in he answered. Then I took a look at our mental health fields, and saw, a lot of these people who choose this field experience the same type of burn out that Carl must have experienced.
They want to help, they have the good intentions, but they become swamped with other's problems and there is a lot of negativity gets downloaded into the therapist, because I suppose, a patient or client looks to the therapist to "solve" something that they need to be solving their own self. the therapist it turns out is often just a person who knows how to listen with both ears, so the client can figure out for their self just what is causing them conflict. It would be the same as being a nurse. The wounded keep arriving, and now you have to do a double shift because your back up didn't arrive to work today.

So Carl went into another line of work and was successful. In regards to the stock market I asked him why it fluctuates up and down so crazy like, so why would anyone want to take a risk on what goes up and down in like 10 minutes?

This is a pertinent question for a housekeeper to make to a stockbroker.

Then I asked is it fear that motivates the stock market? Yes alysia, fear and desire for security for one's self, is what motivates the stock market, to make people sell their shares.

this is no great revelation, but Carl is good at predictions because he invests his time and energy looking at all the new companies, checking constantly the numbers game. this is like he's looking at the thermometer of the whole financial world for this overview, to get a feel for the kinds of businesses which will succeed and those that are folding.

then, the ones that do fold, they sometimes rise up again! so he's on top of all that. I had to respect that he can tell when a company has a legitimate intention to be a good service to life, and when they were only being greedy perhaps to make money and did not offer a service which would go somewhere that people could use.
not that I know anything about making money, but after I viewed Carl, I changed my mind about people in the finances area...they are just like me!
good people.
Carl used to go obe and come and help me with my finances...he's also a part of the collective mind as well, he's friendly, he's developed himself this way through his concentrative efforts. I am grateful for his help. We have different viewpoints. He's not really into the paranormal like I am. That's ok. he's still my friend and a friend is sometimes very hard to find.

love, alysia

Who takes away death's sting deprives life of bitterness

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