Wondering if any of you guys has experience with the above.

Tibetan Buddhist groups go for retreats of frequently one month, and of up to three years on occasion.

One also reads accounts of meditation for periods of a week and the like in rooms that are completely dark and fully soundproofed - essentially sensory deprivation chambers.

I'm wondering how much effect these may have as  means to create opening or progress one towards deeper insight, and what the variables may be....

Hi vajra,

I am not able to comment on the specific items you mentioned, but I have been practicing meditation for some years and would make the following general comments:

Like with anything, practice (and receptivity) builds capacity.
If you want to run a marathon, it will definitely help to put in a few miles before the big one.

These sound like very serious sessions. In pitch black darkness or total sensory deprivation, there is nothing for the mind to use as a focus, which is a very effective way of 'occupying' it, or 'inspiring' it, so your consciousness can do what it needs to do and 'go for a ride'. I would consider extended periods of meditation in that kind of environment a somewhat 'advanced course', since using a visual aid, walking, chanting, or music make things generally much easier, although in some cases those things can also be a limitation to entering yet higher states. In other words it sounds very difficult, but if one has trained sufficiently, why not?

(and yes as mentioned, periodic group meditation does help to inspire and reinforce one's individual practice)

Then there is another very important factor of quality.
According to some teachers and also by my concurring experience, 10 minutes of one's own highest meditation is far superior to 3 hours of drifting in and out of sleep, fully nodding out, day dreaming, wishful thinking, or being dragged along by a racing mind. Even frequent powerful meditations of short duration (like 3 minutes, even 1 minute) dispersed intermittantly throughout the day can be more effective in elevating one's general consciousness than one mediocre session of a half hour or hour.

Getting back to the running metafore - Meditation, like a good single workout can have an immediate effect, but also a cummulative one in the case of a regular practice, so even shorter increments can build capacity. But sometimes it helps to do something like a marathon to 'force' yourself to train seriously and to exceed present capacity. Then all the theory can be put to the test.

I have often undertaken long meditation sessions in groups and on my own, and I know that if done well, something very significant can be achieved.

Then there is yet another issue of assimilation and retention...

In any case, I wholeheartedly recommend to anyone, any sincere practice of meditation (which I would guess you already do on a regular basis anyway), as a primary vehicle of self-transformation/discovery, etc.. It is also imho, the simplest, most accessible, and one of the most effective forms of selfless service there is on this Earth, for this Earth.

be well,

- u

Thank you for the thoughts guys. I guess my situation is that I've a reasonably well established meditation practice that got started in the early-mid 90s. These days I do around 40 min most evenings and sometimes a bit in the morning as well. I don't watch much TV Alysia (it's mostly awful, and can trigger quite painful feelings), but found that if I didn't look at the news the odd time that I got out of touch.

getting stabilised and bringing it out into everyday life is the fun bit as you say David, but it does seem to start to happen spontaneously with time. The stability starts eventually to emerge, but you can't will it into existence. Correct technique is as U says important - it's about  'not doing' and it's mostly about resting just a little of your attention on the breath. The idea is just to keep the mind occupied, but not to introduce enough complexity to get it going. It's not as you know about willpower, that just pumps more energy in.

There are meditative methods for dealing with an unruly mind - what in Shambhala is called close placement. Eyes down to a point on the ground about 1.5m ahead, awareness resting lightly on both the in and the out breath. This can create an effect which for the observer (meditator) is like watching a ping pong ball in a goldfish bowl - it somehow really locks down thoughts as they arise. Raising the gaze and making less use of the breath (following only the outbreath with a slightly lowered gaze and eventually just an open gaze)  is more difficult, but is the way towards bringing it out into life.

Should you be interested these are taught in the wholly non religious Shambhala levels 1 - 5 taught at most centres. http://www.shambhala.org/shambhala-training.php They teach a view of the world, but also the above meditative techniques.

Having got into serious problems with not having a clue how to look after myself, being stressed out, overwork, lousy diet and what turned out to be thyroid and dental mercury related chronic fatigue my path quickly led to meditation. I probably owe my life to the stability, easing of the a lack of belief in myself and ultimately the joy it's brought into my existence. I started from a book, but after several years found my way to Buddhism which while it can be a little ritual heavy and culture specific is an amazing source of practical teachings that work.

All your observations about group sessions are so true - moral support helps so much. I know that my Buddhist group has become a big part of my life. We get lots on the importance of quality rather than quantity too Ultra, and I think it's true.

I've done several week long retreats or similar. One with a Zen group, one TMI Gateway in Spain, and
one with Shambhala. The first day or so is a little tough I find, but by late the second or third some sort of groove has got established which deepens. The feeling seems for me to peter out over a couple of weeks after I get home. Gateway was very profound, it started me down a road of working with raising energy/vibration which has helped so much with heart opening, insight, and experience.

I guess I'm trying to find the means to get to a month long retreat next (a dathun in Shambhala terms), am interested in trying the dark and am curious as to whether these longer/different sessions are qualitatively different in any way.

Sounds like the dark may allow rather more esoteric experience U....

I've found that one doesn't need to meditate for hours and hours in order to accomplish something. It is better to find a way to become free of the ideas that limit us, so we naturally abide in a spiritual state, even while we are active.

I've found that sitting around in a bliss state doesn't help me lose limiting ideas. If anything, doing so prevents me from taking a look at the ideas that limit me.

There have been occasions where I would be in a bliss state for a while during meditation, and suddenly my spirit guidance would show me imagery of people sharing love in different ways. I understood why. Despite how bliss feels so good, love is even sweeter. I've had experiences and received messages which told me that in the end we all share an expansive state of love and oneness. Such a state is much more enlivening than a bliss state.

When I used to read Milarepa, I used to wonder why he spent so much time sitting in a cave meditating. If he was really meditating, why would he have to meditate in such a way for years? If he wasn't really meditating, then what was the point of sitting around in a cave for years meditating? Perhaps we come to this World so we can learn by partaking in it, rather than isolating ourselves from it.

Thanks PM, will take a look...

OK Have downloaded and printed all 61 pages. Amazing the overlaps between traditions. This guy is a Taoist. Looks really interesting in that it's into the biochemistry and physiology of altered states as well - it's got loads to say that may be of interest to anybody in that space.

Dave?

I've just finished a first quick reading PM. Interesting stuff, and well worth the read. Thank you. There's echoes of Tibetan Buddhist practices in there too, although at a level I don't have meaningful knowledge of. They as you know basically offer dark retreats of around a month in a specially built facility in Thailand.

The website is www.universal-tao.com

Trouble is I struggle to make any kind of reasonable assessment of it as I know nothing about Tao (but ideas discussed seem in some ways very similar to Buddhist) and even less about biochemistry. It kind of raises at first hand the issues in the threads on guidance. Sounds like something to keep an eye on for a while.

Do you know of anybody who has experience??

How would any of us understand all of what someone received from sitting in a cave for a long time unless we did the same?

It is a special experience, I am sure, as this type of isolation has been specifically taught as constructive for many people in history.  I believe that long retreats must be restorative, instructive...and also transformative.

Anyone who lives in society understands that it is full of distractions to someone needing a quiet environment in order to learn and create. I believe that this kind of separation has nothing to do with the amount of love someone has for others.

Some of us must be willing to take these trips....and then to come back and tell the others.

love, blink

Some more sources of information on darkness retreats:

The first references approaches to darkness across many traditions. The link at the top of that page goes to a very interesting page which outlines some historical insights into Tibetan Buddhism - including the view that it originally came from Persia, and evolved into modern Mahayana and Zen forms.


http://www.angelfire.com/vt/OkarResearch/darkretreat.html

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=12713

http://www.hermitary.com/articles/david-neel.html

  I know this doesn't have to do with long retreats, but since its about meditation i would like to share.   Someone recently asked me about meditation and for a good book on it.   This was my answer, and thought it might be helpful for some to share publicly.

"Hi, i don't know of any one particular book that i would recommend for meditation, but you don't really need a book to learn and do same.   It's pretty easy and natural, especially once you learn to consistently practice it.  It's like anything in life, the more you practice the better you get.

   Some tips.   Get in a relaxed, comfortable position but with your spine straight in a quiet, distraction free environment.   So, you can lay down, sit on a chair, or sit more cross legged on the floor as in a lotus type yoga position.   I find that doing yoga neck exercises first before lying down, sitting, etc. tends to help loosen up and straighten my spine/back and neck before going into the actual meditation.  We tend to store a lot of tension in our necks and upper shoulder areas.   This helps to relax and loosen this up. 

  Ok, once you are more physically relaxed and comfortable, now it's time to get your mind and left brain more relaxed and passive.   Some people do this by focusing on the breath at first, breathing deeply but naturally too, there is not need to overly force it.   I like to say an affirmation before i really open myself up.   Sometimes it's just a quick one, like i deeply desire and ask that the Light, energy, and love of Source surround, envelope, and fill me up while i am opening myself up in meditation.     I may ask for help and assistance of only constructive, creative, and spiritual energies in helping me during meditation and in life in general.   

  Sometimes i ask to be shown anything of which i need to work on or be more aware of, so that i can grow more.  This doesn't always come right away, sometimes i'll have a dream later for example, which is an answer, or will be led to the right book or person.   Other times i get more direct and fast answers through strong but subtle feelings, images, or words.  Or a combination of any of the above. 

  Importantly, i always give and feel gratitude and appreciation to these sources before and after for their help, and i bring up feelings of love and appreciation for Creation and for Source, i especially thank Source/the Creator for the wonderful gift of being a conscious, self aware being with gift of Freewill, and i ask to be helped so that i can use my freewill in a more conscious and constructive way.   This latter stuff is more like prayer than meditation. 

   This isn't stressed too much in Eastern teachings, or in most books on meditation out there, but there is no point in becoming receptive, still, and passive, unless one seeks to fill oneself up with positivity, light, and constructive intents, awarenesses and feelings.    Becoming passive and receptive in and of itself, will not help people too much.   We become quiet inside, so that we can hear the still small voice of the Source within, and to help actively program the subconscious mind in a more positive, constructive way with an emphasis on positivity, creative, loving thoughts, feelings, and intents.   

  There is an important cyclic pattern in meditation and prayer.  In mediation we empty, still, and clear ourselves, and in prayer we fill ourselves up with what we want to be, want to become, and know that we are truly beneath the temporal illusionary creations. 

  Ok, to simplify it again, just get physically and mentally relaxed.  This helps you to become more receptive, sensitive, and impressionable--it brings the subconscious self to the fore.  Come up with some kind of positive affirmation, similar to the one i mentioned above.   Open up self under that intention, direction, motivation, and desire.  Become still, and then most importantly of all, fill yourself up with what you want to become and be more of, what you know is your and others core reality.  Sincerely give thanks at some point.


  There are other aids along the way.  I often use an energy charge up and balancing method before i get really still, which i've found to be very powerful.  It seems to have a direct affect on the endocrine glands in the body, which relates to the energy centers oft called "chakras"    Some call it toning, others call it chanting.  It too is simple, basically deep in your throat, make some vowel sounds.    Experiment with it, go with the flow and be intuitive about it.   

  You might want to try some more specific toning patterns, as in OhhhMmmmmm, AhhhhOoohhMmmm, ArrrrEeeeeeOoohMmmm, or AhhhOhhUoommm.    Try different scales and pitches, see what works best for you.   I like to sometimes go from a low, gutteral Ahhh, to an ever increasingly higher pitched vibration especially towards the Mmmm part which gets really high.   This really vamps up my energy.   Whooo Ahhh is another good one (thanks Bruce and TMI).

  Again, experiment with different vowel sounds, pitches, and different combinations.   Ask your guidance to lead you to what's most beneficial for you, and just feel it out.   Both the guidance energies that came through the explorers at The Monroe Institute, and the guidance energies that came through the psychic Edgar Cayce, highly recommended the practice of some form of toning/chanting, but not in a fixed or dogmatic way, such as some eastern practicer's and teachings are known for (like chanting a specific Guru's name over and over again).   Hope this helps.