Nope haven't seen it.  I've heard similar theories though, and have thought a lot about the deeper aspects of sex.   I've come to believe that the question of sex, particularly relating to spirituality is a deeper and more complex issue than some or many seem to give it credit for. 

  There seem to be layers to sex, and different kinds of sex.   Real sex to me, is 'merging' at a consciousness level, and thus can be and is a very spiritual process and experience if one doesn't become overly attached and focussed on one particular person or the 1st/2nd chakra animalistic lust energies.   Other kinds of sex is more so just related to over active, imbalanced, and non spiritually directed 1st and 2nd energy center energies.  The latter type of sex is much, much more common in this world than the former, which is probably why so many folks have so much regular or darker red emanations in their auras.

  But does sex lead to liberation in a direct sense?  Personally i don't believe so, i believe the only thing which leads to liberation is constant practice of and being PUL in relation to others and self, and it seems that some form of regular meditation or going within seems pretty important and helpful in the whole process.

  In general, i think physical sex is both overly focussed  on (over rated) and yet often at the same time overly repressed in certain cultures (which often leads to over, OCD focus on it ironically) as well.  At the same time, i believe the energy related to sexual energy is a very powerful and raw energy, which if channeled deliberately and constructively can really help to expand, vitalize, and strengthen one's total energy if one is already trying to live in and practice a more PUL and meditative type lifestyle to begin with--hence celibacy in such cases can be a very powerful tool and practice if the right intents, motivations, etc are there and there is an overall balancedness to the person and the life in general.  Or certain kinds of tantric practice can be very powerful along those lines (if its not primarily about materialistic, sensual hedonism).  In any case, isn't this a more "Off Topic" type thread?

only when you die will sex not matter.  and even then you can have the "spiritual sex" .. not physical. 

to say denying yourself sex makes you spiritual is like saying denying yourself food or water makes you spiritual.  it's simply part of being a human.

We'd quite a long series of posts on this topic a while ago, it might be worth having a look.

The bottom line is possibly that sex like most things can depending on how we approach it (our view or level of consciousness) be a lot of different things. It's very hard to handle precisely because it involves the same or similar energies as higher levels of consciousness and results in such powerful and instinctive urges.

Pursued at the animalistic level purely for personal pleasure, and from an egotistical and selfish mindset it can be perverted by delusion or obsession the same as can the urges for money, power and the like. Not to mention become a driver of exploitation.

A bit higher and it's ultimately a very beautiful and loving exchange between responsible beings, although potentially tinted by selfishness except at high levels of realisation.

Even higher and the energy released can be diverted power access to higher consciousness.

The constipated attitude our society tends to hold about sex has it roots in the lower level - in the need to control what can be an enormously powerful drive that doesn't always express in healthy ways.

Most that mess with tantric methods for 'spiritual' reasons seem to struggle to rise above the lower levels. It seems like tantric methods are only formally taught in Buddhism at very highest levels of spiritual achievement.

The bad news is probably that much like drugs etc it's no magical gateway to spirituality. It can lift us to higher states, but to be used successfully in that way we probably first have to by other means have reached a level of consciousness where we can transcend the selfish urges.....

Hi When you think about the millions of people in the world,all individle men are attracted to a woman of there choice but no same man is attracted to no same woman,this happens but rarely,i also beleive its to do with past lives and the fact that we have all at different times known each other in past lives and thats where the different attractions are for human beings.

I have a really close male friend and we call each other soul mates and we love each other so much and the other night we were talking together and we almost ended up in bed together.but we both stopped and we both realised that if this happened between us,that would be the end of our relationship,we dont know why but we decided we just want to carry on being soulmates because we know thats what we were meant to be on this physical plain and we told each other that we will be friends till we die and after in the spirit world,our love for each other is truly spiritual love.

Sex is not always the way to spiritual,there are many other kinds of love that can be shown between two human beings.

Love and God bless   Love juditha

As a proponent of spiritual tantrism, I tend to agree that sexuality is an obvious and available path to awakening to spirituality. It's hardly the only path, nor is it more than an introductory approach. And, as Juditha pointed out, it's more than just an activity, but tends to color our entire relationship with our partner as material in substantial part. This can be good, as in the case of people truly and deeply in love, or it can be a disaster, as in the case of cold-blooded f*cking.

I'd be inclined to think twice if someone told me that this was the only way to "meat my Maker".

dave

If we're trying to evolve to the point where we abide as a spirit being who doesn't have anything to do with a physical body, how can body based sex continue to be a part of the equation?

The fact of how people often get caught up in the issue of sex, shows how much of a binding/limiting effect it can have.

Because we identify with our bodies, we try to share love and obtain union with others through sexual activity.  Since it is our spirit being which allows us to be aware and experience love and oneness, do our bodies actually play a role that is significant?

Lust is an energy that doesn't have anything to do with love. This is why people who allow themselves to be overly influenced by it, end up becoming child molestors, rapists, porn addicts, etc. Is it just a coincidence that sex is a lower chakra energy?

I doubt that beings of love and light miss sex. Those who were bound by it at one time, are probably quite happy that they are now free of it.

Quote:



This may just be my personal take on it, but the way I see it, it would seem as though sex is about both physical and spiritual pleasure. Lust plays a key role in making it work, but operating on lust alone will cause someone to either get involved with people they shouldn't be involved with or end up committing cold blooded acts and both of those are bad outcomes.

And to the_seeker: I think you're right. I've been particularly fascinated with the way that we don't control our what we are attracted to and it just sort of happens and had the theory that it had something to do with a past life. I have personally struggled with different preferrences that I was in denial of, then accepting but secretive, and then finally open about it. Let's just say I'm not attracted to the type of women people usually see on TV. I'd rather not elaborate on that. I also have an openly gay cousin and it seems that as time goes on, peoples sexuality has become more diverse. a hundred years ago, everyone's sexuality seemed to be pretty traditional and everyone was attracted to what they would normally be attracted to most of the time. I can also recall reading one of Bruce's descriptions on Focus 27. He said something about being able to appear in any form you want. This then added similar questions about whether there are lovers who appear as each others ideal.
Peace
David

the_seeker wrote on Nov 25^th, 2007 at 1:30am:


  I certainly wouldn't argue against the basic premise in the above, but i would like to expand a bit upon the part i highlighted.   I've come to believe that humans, the huge, huge majority of us, really limit ourselves in so many ways.   Part of this whole limitation thing, seems to also be an issue of powerful attachments and incomplete and distorted belief systems. 

   Maybe a human doesn't really need to eat, drink, sleep, or have sex to be "human"?  Maybe if we lived reality purely while in the body, we would not be limited by such space/time 'laws' and super common attachments?

Are you a fan of Robert Monroe at all?   If you haven't already, i would suggest checking out his last book Ultimate Journey.  He talks of an account in there, while doing one of his many Consciousness explorations in the nonphysical wherein he asked his Greater self, his Inspec/I-There if he could meet the most spiritually mature/evolved person living in his time/space cycle. 
  His guidance said, sure but it may not be what you expect.   Anyways, to make it more brief, he nonphysically enters into a normal looking room which he said could be anywhere, and there at a desk is a physically incarnate person...but not just any person.   This person becomes aware of Bob as soon as Bob focuses on this person.   They start to have a very fascinating "telepathic" nonphysical conversation.
Bob is allowed limited access into this person's mind.   A bunch of really interesting things become known.   This person, whom Bob refers to He/She (because of the amazing balance of their energy between the masculine/feminine) let's Bob know that they are some 1800 years old, they don't eat, sleep, or age anymore and haven't reincarnated anymore in that whole time (poo hoo on all those people claiming to be this person reborn ).   

   Bob picks up that "He/She" works many different jobs in their linear physical time, and the reason given is about as simple as one can get--He/She likes people.   

  I would say that Bob was a pretty credible guy overall.  Many folks who have been long involved in the metaphysical/spiritual world, would say and have said that Bob is a pretty credible and balanced guy.   I don't automatically take his word for the gospel truth, but check what he says against what my own feelings and guidance says, and for whatever reason, i trust and believe him on this account.    I also realize that Bob seems to hint that his person is somehow already known about in some way, if you read the account very carefully, but that's a whole nother story and apparently the name of this person seems to turn too many people off so i'll let my opinion remain unstated here (he can be taught?).
 
Point being is that if this account is a true one, then perhaps humans in reality can transcend such things even while involved with this dimension?   Maybe our true nature is much less limited than what we have been led to believe?   Maybe we need to open our minds and seriously consider radical possibilities before these can become actual experiences and truths for us as well, and not just some super advanced "He/She" type.    Maybe it doesn't help to keep telling ourselves and others about how limited we humans are? 

  Maybe it helps to look more to these most expanded examples, and to not pay so much attention to those who didn't expand to such heights?  How many other spiritual teachers out there, can say that they've attained to what He/She has?  Maybe these 'outer signs' are indications of the great inner depth of spiritual attunement of He/She?   Maybe we can and will be like He/She if we live like He/She?

  Dunno ultimately, but i find these to be interesting questions and ways of looking at things.   Personally, i'm a bit tired of being limited.

I guess it depends on how we "label" things.......again.

"Lust" is a very different word from "attraction" -- and I think we can easily get lost in shades of meaning.

I personally feel that, for myself, without the very specific physical experiences that I have had in this world, I would not have the self-understanding that I now have.

In fact, these experiences have been woven into my life in such a way that I would say I have been guided through them deliberately.

I feel that it is not necessary for me to separate my physical experience from my spiritual experiences. They are of one piece for me, as I see it now.

love, blink


recoverer wrote on Nov 27^th, 2007 at 1:01pm:

Blink:

This is sort of a response to what you wrote, and it sort of contradicts what "I" wrote before. I've read a number of near death experiences which state that we come here to learn how to love. None of them say that we have to give up sex.

I figure most people can learn to love without giving up sex. However, there are some people who for whatever reason try to reach a level where they can live as a light being even while still occupying a body. For most people this isn't necessary.

Related to this, I don't believe that each of us needs to become a completely enlightened master during one of our physical incarnations. It is enough if we learn to love in an unconditional way. When I say this, I don't mean that we can never ever have unloving moments. We just simply need to get to the point where for the most part we are loving people. The imperfections will be taken care of when we move on to the spirit World, according to need.

Rondele:

I figure Robert Monroe had lots of experiences to share, yet he shared an experience that he certainly knew would cause some people to raise their eyebrows.   If anything, I believe this shows he was honest about the experiences he had.

I've had numerous experiences and I can tell that quite often they are symbolic rather than literal.  It doesn't seem as if Robert always took the time to distinquish whether an experience was symbolic rather than literal, even though in his second book Far Journeys he wrote that his guidance helped him have various types of experiences for the purpose of learning.

I figure the W.C. Fields experience might be a symbolic way of saying that beings from different parts of the universe get together in order to share their experiences and knowledge. There may be beings in the universe who don't know about humor, and they learn about it from the human race.  The odd part of Robert's humor experience, if I remember correctly, is that he stated that many beings don't know about humor. I can't say whether or not this is true. In figuring whether it is,  one might consider why is it that human beings are able to experience humor. It may be that the World of opposites we experience is what allows the principle of humor to come into being. Other beings might not experience the same play of opposites.

It is also possible Robert interpretted his experience a bit inaccurately. The point wasn't that most other beings don't experience humor, but rather that each race has something unique to share with other races. The experiences I have had have shown me that it isn't always possible for an instructive experience to be created so that every symbol is a perfect match. Especially not if a person has numerous experiences.

To tell you the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if a spirit being appeared as W.C. Fields. I've had lots of contact with beings who are more than earthbound spirits, and if there is one thing I've found, spirit beings have a sense of humor.

Think about it, if you were from an alien race that didn't know about humor, you made contact with various races for different reasons, you made contact with the human race partly because you wanted to learn about humor, wouldn't you consider joking around and appearing as W.C. Fields?

 

rondele wrote on Nov 27^th, 2007 at 1:56pm:

Rondele:

Interesting that you brought up the sex pile on this thread. I suppose if a person gives too much importance to sex, they might end up in an astral sex pile some day. Robert tried to retrieve such a spirit, but he had no interest in giving up his sexual energetic. The energetic that caused him to be naturally attracted to spirits with a similar energetic. Spirits don't have physical bodies to walk about, so they tend to go where their overall way of thinking/energetic brings them.





rondele wrote on Nov 27^th, 2007 at 3:48pm:

my goodness Bets u do have a way with words, you're absolutely right, it's time for new language, sex has got all kinds of effluvia thoughts around it, the same as the the word religion does.  I'll go bake some bread now. love ya!

Quote:


??

I once read someone, probably in reference to Sting's claims about long "Tantric sex" sessions, that actually Tantric sex is an advanced, difficult Buddhist practice wherby you have to achieve complete detachment while having sex...  this sounds a bit like what Ah So says here, or when Vajra referred to "higher"kinds of sex where it is aimed at achieving spiritual growth more than a loving experience with the partner.

That sounds OK in theory, but a bit cold in practice (to me) - I think the best kind of sex should be where you are completely focussed on your love, connectedness and oneness with the other person and their happiness. Surely that is also, as a by-product, a way of achieving a selfless, spiritual state of some sort, without kind of ignoring your partner in the pursuit of some spiritual goal 

I think sex is a problematic thing for humans because it can be a basic animalistic instrict on the one side and something human and loving, even spiritual, on the other; as people have said, the sexual instincts can also be twisted  in ways that create some of the most horrible and unloving kinds of human behaviour, some that even animals would not come up with. To some extent I suppose there are potentially dark sides to some other human experiences too that, used properly, can be beautiful and enjoyable

I dare say in the spirit world there are alternatives - like some people say spirits are able to "merge" in some way that is satisfying but not like physical sex

Greetings,

the only link I can see between sex and spirituality/ the afterlife (therefor also spiritual growth that leads to increasing knowledge concerning the afterlife, astral planes, aspects of others and oneself) is in fact what is the result of two persons merging, the offspring.
If looking at divinity and the act, what comes to my mind, is that the transcendence lies there, where the two persons become obstetricians, like a task given by the divine one (or even various gods/godesses).
Babies do not come from the box in the garden, nor are they delivered by a stork, thus we know.

So where to draw the line? Simply put, sex (as the act itself, and even the feelings attached to it) is a thing of the C1 body. Why do not leaving it where it belongs? That does not mean that it is something disgusting, or against nature, indeed, it is part of our human C1 nature.
If talking about where the spiritual part lies, it is obviously found while raising the offspring, being like teachers, to give the offspring the possiblity to live on its own, a wide range of responsibility (growth for the mind!!!) for the parents. So no growth during the act, rather after having "received" the "result".

I question practices like tantra, as I do not think one can be on track for a spiritual journey for verifying anything that derives from the ultimate truth, as the act is an intimate moment between two persons, so the focus also emphasises on the "in between".
If going on a journey, the travelers often use a setting that is quiet and provides inner balance between rationality and emotion (a state of just "to be"), to have the ability to focus on what lies behind the curtain.
So a highly emotional moment does not give the surroundings for receiving, but that is only my poor pov.

Tantra sounds too much like a foul compromise. When spiritual growth means also leaving behind body-bound behaviour, feeling the need for sex is also something to get over with. It has its time and place in life. I do not point out and do not want to start a discussion on if it is for personal pleasure or not, that is up to everyone to decide.
Sex might be an experiment, but the experimental phase is something to get over with, everything has its time and place in life, and after the experimental phase, there comes responsibility. To control this kind of feelings, to make room for the next step (the "obstetrician-phase", after having received a baby), lies also within our nature.

But there are aspects of a relationship, that replace the experimental phase, such as trust, faithfulness, etc.
Might sound conservative, but as life is bound to change, this aspects also change.

yours sincerely,

pulsar

very articulate post to my opinion Ian. from my studies so far I would agree with you. I do believe in human evolvement, perhaps the Buddhic plane, sex is moot point, I mean in regards to the distortion around the word sex itself.

it seems a human passing here, perhaps the younger soul ages of us, have the greatest propensity to mess up the most beautiful things, and gilding a lily might be analgous to my statement. the polarities, of male/female do not appear to be confined to what gender we are occupying. Note a recent poster here who declared his polarity was opposite to his gender. He was a woman.
my point is we are energy beings, of dual polarity proclivity within our inner selves regardless what we look like on the outside.
these polarities or opposite energy factors attract each other, much the same as a magnet attracts metal.
we construe, these forces to be passions and learn to control them as we go along, century after century, thus the usefulness of celibate periods, as well, forgive me for quoting the bible, but it is said there, a man can attend to god's business much better without a wife, however, it goes on to say it is far better, and even for the priest, to take a wife, rather than "to burn."

it is not saying its good or bad to take a wife. its just saying its exceedingly difficult, according to this author anyhoo, to attend to godliness concerns while having passions he cannot think of anything else until satisfied.

what the bible is amiss in is that the spiritual and physical is cojoined, as are man and woman, the polarities, and both a religious life and with marriage can be also accomplished if the couple are both having the same intentions in that.
at present, and as always, we are witness to a division of the polarities, when we may as well progress into the Buddhic level where the division does not exist, because the pleasurable aspects of sex are something one chooses or chooses not, by a mere thought exchange and just an experience of PUL in the end prognosis.

maybe as a solution to rehabilitate sexual offenders Ian, we could pass a bill to teach them meditation...somehow it doesn't seem realistic right now..for instance, the justice system already has group counsel which does much good, at least the stories I've read about point out that just getting them to talk about their selves, gets some of the kinks out, so I'm hopeful.

I do not advocate even aspirin, so you would be talking to the wrong person on the use of chemicals other than herbs and those more naturally alchemical based products to produce or help a mental/emotional inbalance. Dave knows about all the drug related things and whether they are/were good to attain a spiritual outlook, or just a healthier outlook, and less aggression in the world.
If you would be talking about rapists..it has been noted already that it is not a sexual deviation so much as it is a violent, control issue. took me a long time to figure that one out. molesters of children are into lust; rapists can turn into killers easily because of the control/power issue.  its not easy to think of how to deal with them. I think it's a deep spiritual matter and god must be brought in, when dealing with this subject. sorry to bring up the word god, sometimes I can't think of a better word for "all knowing." generally, so I call it spirit. we're in a new age, I'm so aware of that point, but these problems of pillage, rape and murder began the moment the caveman set foot on Earth, and we're barely out of caveman mentality my opinion, as a whole. but I am seeing progress!
chin up old boy! We deal with it when it shows up in our own backyard.

its ok to ingest medicines and such, but they are temporary symptom removers, as long as you know this and don't expect a cure from the pill, its ok to go for short term relief, my opinion. but I do think our society is way too much into tranquilizers, when meditation would be far better stress reliever and gets to the core issue whats bugging you.
but u can lead a horse to water, you just can't dunk his head in there..the beast is stubborn!!

Greetings,

what I also think according to this topic, you cannot allow your body/ feelings everything. That is a matter of the ability to control feelings, needs and urges.

I for myself am very bored with the hyperbole around sex, as if it was the only thing in life. We had it before, apparently the important thing about body contact is offspring, and I feel confortable about seeing it like that.
But when really thinking about sex as an important aspect of a relationship, accompanied by a voice chanting, that a relationship without it is hardly possible, that makes me feel unconfortable.
What really makes me angry, that some people laugh me down for not having had sex, the only urge I feel is to really find a way of "loving", that makes sex looking humble.
So much has been said about PUL, and if the power of PUL is that strong, that it is referred to as being essential, I really ask myself why it always has to be sex, why is it freaking included everywhere?
As I learned that being connected with other people without meeting in the physical is possible, why shouldn't it be possible to find the transcendence of a relationship also via e.g. pe, meditation (obviously with the chosen partner!) To pass the gate of eden without taking the detour via tantra (obviously where tantra should lead one, not to find a lustbound connectedness, but the essence of female and male, but I rather tend to think, that travelling beyond the physical for finding this essence, is after all possible without a tantric approach).
Why should it be so hard to share love the right way, without the forced corporal loving, that is shoved down our throats way too much?
Why shouldn't it be possible to merge spiritually, according to the energy principle, without merging physically?
If sex is beautiful or not, lies within the eye of the beholder, fair enough?

Maybe it is a matter of narrow spiritual knowledge, but I believe that honest sharing of PUL as the base of a solid relationship, does more for spiritual growth, my pov.
I just fear that sex could have an influence on me, that I cannot handle, and that it might possibly lead to being numb.

If a higher awareness while having sex (not contact enrooted in lust) is needed to draw nearer to the divine, I will probably never really meet what I am searching for. The essence of all things.

yours sincerely

pulsar

[email][/email] Edit This Message:    
strangeme 
Spiritual intercourse would mean something more specific than universal charity. It would be special communion with the sexually complementary; something a man can have only with a woman and a woman only with a man. We are made complete by such union. The souls in heaven must still take on the aspects of male and female to make spiritual merging and the ecstasy of merging with another compatible soul joyful and glorious

The relationship need not be confined to one in Heaven. , monogamy is for earthly union.

The relationship may not extend to all persons of the opposite sex, at least not in the same way or degree. If it did extend to all, it would treat each differently simply because each is different-sexually as well as in other ways. I think there must be some special ``kindred souls'' in Heaven that we are designed to feel a special sexual love for. That would be the Heavenly solution to the earthly riddle of why in the world John falls for Mary, of all people, and not for Jane, and why romantic lovers feel their love is fated, ``in the stars'', ``made in Heaven''
But this would differ from romantic love on earth in that it would be free, not driven; from soul to body, not from body to soul. Nor would it feel apart from or opposed to the God-relationship, but a part of it or a consequence of it: His design, the wave of His baton. It would also be totally unself-conscious and unselfish: the ethical goodness of agape external, and without selfishness or animal drives.
.
We know Heaven by earthly clues. Let us try to read all the clues in earthly intercourse. It has three levels of meaning: the subhuman, or animal; the superhuman, or divine; and the specifically human. (All three levels exist in us humans.)

Specifically human reasons for intercourse include the desire to express personal love. As to the first, there is no marriage in Heaven. As there can be no wrong in heaven spiritual, union between souls like soul must happen.

I think there will probably be millions of more adequate ways to express love than the clumsy ecstasy of fitting two bodies together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
This spiritual intercourse with God is the ecstasy hinted at in all earthly intercourse, physical or spiritual. It is the ultimate reason why sexual passion is so strong, so different from other passions, so heavy with suggestions of profound meanings that just elude our grasp. No mere practical needs account for it. No mere animal drive explains it. No animal falls in love, writes profound romantic poetry, or sees sex as a symbol of the ultimate meaning of life, sexuality is a foretaste of that self-giving, that losing and finding the self,. That is what we long for; that is why we tremble to stand outside ourselves in the other, to give our whole selves, body and soul: because we are images of God the sexual being. We love the other sex because God loves God.

In addition, this earthly love is so passionate because Heaven is full of passion, of energy and dynamism... Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, becoming Heavenly fire so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire of eternal spiritual sexual union with any soul mate we desire.
Please I am not being dogmatic on this topic but just put it out there for discussion and dialogue.
Alan

[email][/email]