Interesting stuff. I've just had a dig on the web regarding Helen Schucman's life and this by Ken Wapnick is what came up: http://www.miraclestudies.net/Absence_Epilogue.html He addresses the problem of her difficult life.

Funnily enough I've had the same experience of finding ACIM hard to spend a lot of time on without clicking out. I'd put it down not so much to anything energetic or of spiritual import, but rather to the fact that it's not a book that's about providing more 'mind food' - interesting and exciting reading that enthuses one and draws one in. It's circular style is almost inevitably boring.

I've no axe to grind on the book and would be interested to hear what you guys have to say regarding exactly why it's spiritually wrong in places.

As I said I've not made a close study of it (not unrelated to the above reason) but I'd have to say that it's triggered no problems for me other than that it doesn't really position meditation as a useful tool.

What am I missing???

Vajra:

I just want to let you know that I'm not ignoring your participation in this dialogue. Hopefully enough of what I wrote applies to what you wrote. I would address what you wrote on a point by point basis, but golly gee, I think I've already written quite a bit.

Hi Oliver, when ACIM says the world is not real, it is referring to our scientific observations about the energy construction of objects, that there is nothing really solid as we may think it is solid, therefore it is real to us, but real has only the meaning we attach to real,  everything is in a state of energy vibration, and from a spirits viewpoint, they will see quite a different image to what is real. so thats one way to understand what its saying. It is not a book built around science or physics, but rather around psychology.
also the other way of looking at that is that we know that our years are numbered. in eternity nothing on that side is in process of degrading, such as here, our table, our housing, cars, etc, they all require maintenance, as well we age,  over time, breaking down, a natural course here, but not on the side of eternity, things do not wear out or break nor do we experience aging.

so hope that helps a little, and thanks for being so honest, that you are reluctant to make quick judgments.

I think the difficulty in interpreting much of this sort of stuff R is as I said to connect with it.

I for example made a sandwich for my lunch today. Does that mean that God or primordial mind was not involved in it too?? That God did not create it? That both realities don't simultaneously exist?

It'd be easy to interpret my statement above to that effect, that I've somehow taken on Godly powers of creation. But that's not what I mean, or what any of us mean when we say that.

There's a very old Buddhist principle in this stuff I've mentioned before. That being that truth usually lies somewhere between the polarities (the yin/yang) in anything but is best expressed by reference to a higher principle. To fasten on to either polarity means missing the higher truth, and probably getting stuck in a sterile is/isn't argument at the (lower) level of the polarity.

This is another take on the 'finger pointing at the moon' idea i outlined before. I'm really sorry if I'm being pushy and don't mean to offend, but I don't think that you can successfully tap the meaning of much of ACIM by fastening on sentences and interpreting them in isolation and in very literal terms.

Any more than you can do that with the Bible either. That doesn't stop lots trying, but it's at least a part of what has resulted in it's use to justify some very unpleasant actions.

It's absolutely correct that you steer clear of ACIM if it doesn't feel right for you, but as I've said before it reads well to somebody seeing it through a  more Buddhist frame of mind. I've not studied it closely enough to have a firm view, but so far I've not seen a really convincing argument put up as to why it's wrong.

Maybe we should just agree that we (possibly) differ..

Hi Albert,

Ok then, lets explore this assertion.
But to be fair to everyone, both who have and have not read the book, can you cite, or better yet, quote the passage, or even a brief excerpt of the one in question so we may all examine it?
Unless you've discarded the book.

That would be most appreciated.
thanking you in advance,


- u

I'm confused what Vedanta is. I suppose Dave knows what that is.
ACIM does not have that word in it; you seem to be mixing up philosophies here.

If as you say, Vedanta is contending that everything is the one self, I don't see a conflict there with ACIM, but I see you are upholding Vedanta, and not ACIM.

I think I know what you're getting at.  In ACIM it says God did not make this world.

this is very very simple to explain. ACIM is not saying god is dead or that there is no god. not at all. ACIM is saying We made this world, and that god is in the heavens watching his children endure a nightmare.

Now, it's not so bad to have a life, but if we take the holocaust, do u suppose that was god's idea? No. We made the holocaust, we can undo that.

ACIM goes along with Bruce's vision of Voyage to Curiosity's Father.
http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/vision.html

This particular vision was the first thing I read when I came to this site which took me further than ACIM could explain. ACIM is right brained stuff, I needed more left brained stuff. but that doesn't mean ACIM is not valuable. it is.

What this means to continue, God is. Man is. It does seem man is separated from his god when there is a war or a famine or a disaster.

Man will cry out where is god? well, god is where he always was, letting us run the show down here and make our own mistakes, as a whole, as humanity, and we go along feeling we are indeed separate from god. the truth is war and death that evolves from war is what we have made. We made hell, we can unmake hell, but it's a process to heal the separation we think is there between god and man.

but we can only do that from the inside job of what we choose to believe in, so to create on the outside.

and god is defined within our own image. this is idolatry to make god in our image.
God is All That Is, but he gave us free will to make our own reality, yet it cannot compare, what we make here, with our true home from whence we came.

fact is, we have our memory wiped out for a new life to begin. we need new experiences as spirit, we need to know how to stop being a warring people overall. we are discussing ego on another thread, so this all ties in with ACIM discussion of how the ego will strive to separate rather than make as one.

Ego can be heartless on this planet, without compassion, we are a people still capable of killing one another. God is not capable of killing and making war, nor punishing, god is, the only thing I know what god is, is life itself, like a grace which descends that tells you, you are going to be ok, you did the right thing, I am with you, that sort of thing comes into meditation with you. that would be god to me.

we should not try to make god into our own self image, and I agree with ACIM,
this place, if it be without love, it is not my home, and god did not make this world.
because only love is real.

But play your part on the stage of life well, whatever that role, and know that one moment with the truth that you are loved is worth all the books you may have read.

A book, any book is inspired by a person's soul searching. Helen who channelled ACIM was at the end of her rope in life. as so often happens, before big changes of a transformational kind can come in, one has to be at the virtual end of one's rope in order to open up to the truth.

Helen and her associate psychologist worked daily together in the same office and fought like dogs and cats. Finally, one day they decided they needed to stop fighting. They had no religion. Funny, one doesn't need a religion to sit down and pray together. So they were not atheists. Maybe agnostics. At any rate even an atheist crys out in their soul to a god they do not believe in, when push comes to shove.

The prayer worked. I believe it was around 1957. ACIM took some years to get done. Helen would do some of the channelling at night, her partner would take the notes and type them up. They stopped fighting at the time because the material was drawing them together in a new struggle. To understand it. Helen was disturbed by this new channelling business. a voice was in her head, as well, she didn't like that. She needed her former enemy to stabalize her emotions, what was happening.
Since they had prayed together, they knew the channelling had come after the prayer and so they started to look at the material together and learn from it, but it took many years.  It is instrumental to note here the power of prayer. The bible says where two or more of you are gathered, there I am in the midst.

we can find many examples how prayer does work, so I am not surprised that this book was given to two people who work in the mental health field and is all about the ego of man and belief systems, for Helen had the necessary back ground into human psychology so that even thought she had difficulty with it, with the words seeming so lofty and flowery, as she was left brained, she would get better at jotting down what the spirit told her to. she did argue and try to change the text.
The spirit said it must not be changed, not even one word, and so she had to place her own ego by the wayside in order to write this thing, if any of you know how hard it is to set the ego aside, please tell us about it. it is very difficult to be a channeller.

ok, enough! lol.  in essence, ACIM says don't defend the material. So I'm seeing Recoverer is seeing understanding, I'm just trying to pass on my understanding and hope that it may help, but know that there are other paths to take besides ACIM, but it is a path, not like overnight transformation, but takes at the least a year, then I know ACIM students and teachers, who start reading it again because they missed something the first time through.

No book should be critiqued though until you read the entire book and have an overview of the entire thing.
there will never be a church of ACIM. It is the church is your own closet. thats what I like about it the most.
Churches, religions, they get distorted with different viewpoints. Since ACIM is a self study, it can never be a religion and does not separate you from your brothers and sisters of any affiliation.

ok you can look at it that the Jewish people have this sacrificial lamb type of oversoul..follow me so far? The Jewish people are a segment of god, meaning they broke off from god and wanted experiences on Earth. They had a mission to fulfill to teach how man can be cruel to man, due to no love being practiced and learned on Earth.

but still WE are all God. the collective mind is also god. The individual mind is god. Together, when we find oneness we are with the one in consciousness then.

god is watching but god is you and me and everyone is god but the illusion stands that we believe we are separate from god, and whatever we believe that is what outpictures into the physical reality. just belief. or mind.

we do have light beings who watch over us and come when asked for help, or when we pray, where two or more are gathered there is god in the midst of you.

but I believe it is impossible to see god as a single, individual personage being, just does not compute. Spirit is spirit, man is spirit permeating the structure of the body as spirit, thinking it is a body, for the experience, and we are getting ready to shift into a different dimension of awareness with the aid of spirit.

so in that sense god is aware of when bad things happen, but theres always a reason for the wars..and now I think theres a reason for not having wars but theres this thing called free will. so you have to think that we are able to make choices as a whole, as the majority, towards controlling our environment better than we have in the past, I dare say no light beings can interfere in what we must take responsibility for the world we see around us, we can undo our mistakes, meaning we stop killing, god does not make us stop killing. god is not a man. he is our inner voice angel.


hi back again, lol. Spooky, I have to take you in chunks 

I can't give u all that I learned, but consider that when we incarnate man comes in, he has a plan, he experiments, he has intentions. Monroe says we make loosh in a successful life. when we come in for a dive, we automatically have this "split" mind. meaning we forget the previous life.
so we are "new" but we have been here so many times before. the mind is split because it is a duality world. dual is synonamous with word to be split, a subconcious mind and a conscious mind. when we integrate the two sides of the brain as in hemisync, we are tapping into memories, just like the Course said, we start remembering who we really are. We are in essence, without the distortions of all our belief systems, whether they be religious or political, we are pure as the driven snow, a part of god, we are basically good people behind it all.


ACIM says our essence is PUL.

I believe this despite any wars we have had and sometimes there are spirits who enjoy fighting, and yet they learn from the fight.
you should read Voyage to Curiosity's Father as it shows how we broke off from another being and were on a scouting mission, saw Earth and dived in. God is still waiting for his scouts to get back home. see, this is Bruce's vision, that we started out as Curiousness. Something innocent. Curious. So, here was this planet and we started the process of evolution upon it and got a little attached to it. addicted even to life here. so if we broke off from another huge portion of some being of light called Curiosity's Father, I can understand this much better than to try to visualize some being sending us here knowing we would self destruct with free will. that doesn't make a lot of sense either.

I'll go read u some more...I'm not blaming the germans btw for the holocaust, no way, they were a single act with the Jewish, it was planned the way it happened. nobody will understand it that way but I do.

more chunks. you said the relief might come from waking up from the nightmare. yes, thats about it, but it's you and I that do the waking up part by the right choices we make in our lives.
ACIM says the ego has endless questions. just when you get some questions answered the ego has more. It is never satisfied. ACIM says go and seek an experience. Since you are here, since C1 doesn't know everything, seek an experience.
which means to me, stop bugging your head with so many questions no one can answer without attaining experience.
with the split mind, the ego, the selfish part of us does the question part. the other part of our mind, connected with right perception, with what we call universal consciousness it will tell you about everything, like love, what it is, what is isn't, etc but it is necessary that we do a walk through linear time to attain this experience we came here for, so we don't have to come back and repeat the same lessons.

I rarely think of what god is, because he has to be inside me, if I saw him outside me, that would be saying I'm separated. so it's not real, this world is not the real one, but it will do for now! lol. so hard to talk about these things. what we should look at is our own heart, our own fabricated worlds of belief, and take care of our relationships one to one, to not be making karma to clean up.
we can do this by forgiveness, the Course says to forgive automatically, each one, then we are not making karma or war.

now I suppose your going to cite some example where forgiveness is impossible? 
I would just say take as much time as you need to work out things, because sometimes time is all we have.

we can be quick in our progress or we can spread it out over life times, just depends on how much you meditate, read, make efforts, love your neighbor, etc.

be kind to dogs, lol, be kind to alysia if you want. 

don't worry Spooky, surely the universe is unfolding exactly on schedule despite there are moments we wonder!
ACIM does not explain the beginning of the universe as there is no way to figure out infinity as having a beginning and an ending.

It's a book about love. PUL. Love just is. It doesn't need to be defined, but felt, and allowed to be.

now, why didn't I just say that in the beginning?

someday Spooky, you're going to have to stop singing the blues as good as you do, and you'll sing some fine love tunes, wait and see! me too I hope!

Quote:


  Hi Vajra, i agree with Albert, it just simply has too much consistent emphasis on ego, as in a big ego monster type outlining.     I guess i would recommend the practice section a bit more than the teaching section between them there seems a bit less focus on the big ego monster in the latter part. 

   There is truth and beauty in same, but to change the subconscious mind you have to focus more or primarily on the reality, the positive, the "what i want to become and am at the real core".   I don't do this enough myself, and that's because i'm not fully attuned to Source, like
ACIM claims to be.    It's possible that ACIM is more from Helen's subconscious than anything else.   This doesn't make it "evil" or misleading on purpose, but could make it incomplete, imbalanced, and not fully Source attuned.

  Also, the specific dream guidance i had while reading the course.   I intuitively connected that deceptive bending branch and not so good feeling to ACIM even though consciously i wanted to believe in the authenticity of same at the time.   I quickly ignored that feeling and thought. 

  Also, ACIM totally disregards the body physical, and its role while actually incarnated regarding its potential and oft actually influencing either negatively or positively the emotional and mental aspects.   

   A lot of guidance connected to TMI, particularly Rosiland McKnight's guides, and also Cayce's guides teach quite differently.   They say that while we are physically incarnate, its important to keep the body physical-- the Temple strong, harmonized, clean, and clear in a physical, diet, health way so that the faster vibrating aspects of self can shine through more strongly, clearly, and consistently.   Not to become over attached to or over concentrate on same, but to be mindful and to practice physical discipline just as we should practice mental/emotional discipline. They stress a constructive holistic balance between the physical, mental, and spiritual.   They point out that a really imbalanced body and self, from even just more purely physical influences, can have a detrimental and imbalancing affect on the Whole of the energy system.

   And while i do believe that the physical and the body is ultimately unreal (such as ACIM teaches), i don't believe its constructive to totally disregard the physical, and the body while actually incarnate like ACIM seems to stress.   

  I don't believe its black and white.   ACIM seems to 'teach' people to totally disregard the body.  If this is the case, and i'm perceiving this accurately, then it means it is imbalanced inherently.   Again, this doesn't make it sinister, evil, or purposely misleading necessarily--though i also consider that possibility too.

  As far as the 'clicking out' thing in relation to ACIM.   It was more a constant tiredness and drained feeling when reading same.   Not simple boredom, it was way too fast for that.   I've read A LOT of books of all kinds, and many spiritual type ones, and i've never had this extreme and consistent reaction to another book of any kind.   

  And last, and least is that i've gotten guidance in relation to Albert, and while i know he is not infallible all the time, i very much trust him and his connections to guidance.  Him and Bruce Moen are two of the most intune people i've interacted with in some capacity and tuned into. Albert has gotten consistent, repeating guidance telling him to leave ACIM alone because of its potentially ego increasing affect.    

  I don't just take his word for it, but after the the feelings and guidance that i have had (before i knew about his), it more than gives me pause to consider his own experiences, feelings, and guidance.   It's pretty simple to find out for oneself.   Get very relaxed and receptive, bring up feelings and state of being of PUL,  intend to surround oneself with pure Source consciousness, intend no preconceived beliefs, ask to communicate with Yeshua/Christ and ask him if it came directly and purely from him or not.    Chances are that one will get an answer in some way.    Also ask to  have dream guidance about it, or for the answer to be verified in other ways for you.

  Either way, no one needs ACIM to wake up and become fully attuned to Source again.    It appears from having known various people into ACIM, that many become quite over attached to and over dependent on same, and tend to get over reactive when others honestly question it.    This is true of people and belief systems in general, but it seems particularly extreme in those who have invested a lot in this teaching.    

  And why the hey do they package the new books completely wrapped in plastic so that no one can preview the book? 

P.S., i went to that link you posted, and i tried to read that article.   After reading awhile, and constantly hearing how much on a pedestal the author of same was putting her on, and not seeing the explanations for her difficult and rather troubled life too clearly, i stopped reading it.   It seemed too much like personality and messenger worship.    It reminded me of a lot of the stuff and tone i've read in relation to the whole guru disciple relationship amongst Eastern beliefs, Gurus, and the like and people strongly into same.   It seems that sometimes people are too quick to make excuses for certain teachers and teachings, to so automatically attribute a negative type pattern to something completely positive and 'transcendent".

  For example, somewhat synchronistically, Osho came up on another group i'm at.   There is a  person on that group who is really into eastern teachings, gurus, and the guru-disciple relationship.    For another person who didn't seem to know much about Osho, and the guru guy was strongly recommending him to this person (a woman), i spoke up and directed them to this site and earlier discussion about this particular figure.    The guru guy seemed to get over reactive towards this (and over personal towards me), and possibly because he is good buddies with the leader, the guy who started the group, well my post got erased with no prior notice to myself.   
I persisted a bit after, and the guru guy seemed to at first support Osho's own sayings about himself, that he was completely enlightened, etc., but then later as a defense of Osho, he quoted his own gurus' (Amma's) words about Osho, that he was a fool, but a harmless fool.   Such extreme and obvious contradictions makes me wonder about people's ability to discriminate and balance the right brain aspect of self with the left brain.   First he is enlightened as he claimed, then he is a fool, but a harmless one.    Actually, it's probably more about over attachment, particularly emotional over attachment to ones beliefs (which the huge percentage of us have to some extent or another, but the consciousness or unconsciousness of it is the most important aspect).   

   I say, thank Source for folks like Albert who aren't hung up on projecting a spiritual image, who are honest, sincere, and care about people and speak from that space.   There is way too much dishonesty, hypocrisy, image projecting and attachment, negative over concern about what the group or others will think about self, etc. in the spiritual, New age world.   I respect Albert because he seems not to try to get personal about it, and tries to stick more to the general concepts, ideas, etc. at hand.