I've no practical experience, but speaking theoretically surely all it takes for them to manifest is for somebody in the right (wrong?) mind state to buy into the fact that they exist?

Schizophrenic or split personalities are common enough (the normal egotistical state is to a degree schizo anyway), all it takes is for a compartmentalised sub personality to decide it's a demon and away you go - one minute a nice kid, the next whatever.

It's interesting that they usually conform as you say to societally defined 'norms' for what they should be. This of course introduces and chicken or egg problem - it could imply they are somehow real, but it's also very possible that suggestion fills in  the details.

If you bring ideas of the over soul or collective mind into play this may open the possibility of such manifestations carrying between lives too.

This eventually blurs the edges of whether or not such manifestations can be regarded as real.

If we accept that mind is ultimately collective and unitary (the primordial or  absolute mind of God) then that mind must to create this reality contain what Buddhism refers to as both wrathful and peaceful elements (you could possibly say yin and yang, active and passive, male and female)  - that this dual existence contains both polarities. The enlightened mind contains both elements, but integrated (is non schizo) and in balance.

This being the case it implies that wrathful elements of mind (whether higher collective or individual) might well manifest through those in the right state of mind accessing the right states of consciousness as apparent monsters or demons.

The creativity/ability to manifest realities of mind means that these might actually be perceived as real - they would be both aspects of mind and simultaneously real.

I'm not sure, but suspect this is be the Buddhist view in principle too.....

Both in their mind and real as above. With our minds we make the world...

Isn't their a philosophy that says we make up this world with our mind?

I have an additional thought.

When a person chooses to live according to love and goodness, they make an energetic connection to the light.  A negative minded spirit chooses to isolate it self from the light, its divine source. How could such a spirit possibly have the power to mess with a person who connects his or herself to the light?   Not only does a negative minded spirit take on the person when it tries to influence he or she. It also tries to take on the infinite power of the light a person connects his or herself to. There is no way a negative minded spirit could succeed. It might be able to say "boo!" but big deal.

Hi Pratekya, i would say that there is an importance difference between temporal 'evil' or what i term spiritual error, as opposed to eternal evil.   That which has always existed, will always exist (Spirit/pure Light), that which has a beginning, also often has an end.    

  I believe in the former, i do not believe in the latter for various reasons.

  One thing i would agree with, its not constructive to repress our individual or collective negative shadow side...  The more we do that, the more it come from behind and bite us in our both individual and collective arses.    It's important to face, to completely face that which is negative, and which is holding us back from greater light.    Yet, at the same time, if it is overly concentrated or obsessed on, it then also become destructive too.   Like all things, balance is needed.

  I see repression of the shadow self both individually and in a group sense, on forums like this one somewhat often--and in our society all the time.  In the case of society, it oft gets projected onto "those other people", hence news and the constant dwelling on negative or drama.  On the other hand, in a group forum like this, which has a spiritual motif ofttimes anything that unpleasant, inharmonious, friction seeming, etc., that gets brought up, well oft times the majority will try to shove it under the rug, and like the good little dysfunctional american family--pretend like it never happened.   Sometimes real feelings like anger, sadness, etc. need to be released.   If these become too pent up within a person or group, than that 'entity' oft becomes bi polar or manic depressive in some respects.  Depression is oft inverted anger.

Other times, the "love and light" folks whose constant motto and preaching is acceptance, PUL, etc., well sometimes they become the most forceful, controlling, intolerant, and subtly negative ones in behavior.  Very ironic, and again relates to the repression of the shadow side.   If life has taught me anything, its not to disown Pluto-Mars, but to integrate it with the Solar/Jupitarian/Neptunian self.    This, god forbids, sometimes means acting in a disagreeable manner in relation to individuals or to a 'the' group.   It means not caring so much about what others think of you, whether they be friends or not so well known. 

  Anyways, the negative shadow is here, until it is collectively and completely transformed by spiritual livingness on part of everyone.

Hi Pratekya. Pardon me if I'm presuming too much. I think actually that we largely agree, but could end up disagreeing on a single point.

What I tried to suggest above and have said before is pretty much what you quote of M. Scott Peck - that if mind/the cosmos is ultimately unity then if there is evil then there has to be good too. This i think is what Ah So is saying too - it's of the nature of this  dualistic world and cosmos that there are opposites in everything.

That too is why as Ah So says I think it's essentially delusional to seek to suppress the negative. All of what are so called negative aspects of mind can transmute to become positives in the realised mind.

Anger is a case in point. In its negative form it is generally harmful, but acknowledged, worked with and hence transmuted by compassion for others its energy or charge can become a powerful motivation to good. Suppress it and it will most certainly find a way to bite one up the ass. There are extensive Buddhist teachings on this, for example the Metta Sutra. (?)

As I said earlier there's at least as much harm (maybe lots more) done in the name of a naive  'goody goody' refusal to engage compassionately in this reality of existence.

Putting my non-Buddhist hat back on I'd find it hard to go with the view that God didn't if indirectly create evil. It's arguable that this whole time space cause and consequence driven reality is our own creation (the creation of the collective mind of all the beings inhabiting this reality), but even if it is it's got to still lie within the span of control and what's more the will of an all knowing omnipotent and infallible God. (or highest Mind)

My preferred (non-original) way around this is that we've been given free will, and draws on Ah Sos distinction between temporal and spiritual, or relative and absolute. In our unskilled (learning) way we in this relative reality vacillate in our actions between the polarities of good and evil. (I don't much like that word because it carries such a charge of a particular sort of meaning)

But viewed from the absolute the ultimate outcomes is never in doubt - everything cancels in the end. For example - we seem to have been killed, but viewed spiritually cannot die. The fact that it's spread out over apparent time doesn't matter either - that's only a matter of perspective or how you perceive it in that centuries may be an instant from that perspective.

Modern quantum theory by the way suggests that this is perfectly feasible. (The film 'What the Bleep Do We Know' has academics setting this out in very understandable terms) This is perhaps one of the most compelling reasons to think this all just might be true.

So it's a case of whether you look at it from normal reality, or from a higher view. As Ah So says there most certainly appears to be evil here, but viewed from the absolute it's somehow just a constituent of a greater and perfect reality.

In the words of the Buddhist Heart Sutra which expresses this higher view there is no distinction between good and evil: 'form (our reality) is emptiness (the absolute) and emptiness is form, and then: 'In the same way, feeling, perception, formation, and consciousness are emptiness. Thus, Shariputra, all dharmas are emptiness. There are no characteristics. There is no birth and no cessation. There is no impurity and no purity. There is no decrease and no increase. Therefore, Shariputra, in emptiness, there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no formation, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no appearance, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no dharmas, no eye dhatu up to no mind dhatu, no dhatu of dharmas, no mind consciousness dhatu; no ignorance, no end of ignorance up to no old age and death, no end of old age and death; no suffering, no origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, no path, no wisdom, no attainment, and no non-attainment.'

That's not saying that wrongdoing in this life is acceptable, and it's very clear that wisdom and compassion are required to live without doing wrong - but in order to learn these we need to come to understand both the higher or ultimate reality and how to live in our own reality. This why for example a realised person has no fear of death - he knows that it's not for real, that it's just an appearance...

I've worked with a lot of entities and attachments, and even the one that claimed to be evil gave me the impression that in fact they were simply selfish and immature, like ill tempered childre, or a nasty junkyard dog. As R noted, we have to open the door to be possessed.

The entity, a disembodied spirit who has not yet entered the Light, can attach to anybody who has a thought pattern that suport the entity's own personality. One example is a woman who got killed at an intersection in New York, and was sort of "stuck" to that place. Meanwhile she also rode home with the guy who had run her down, and then later she stayed with a woman who lived nearby, and eventually hitched a ride with a Califoria tourist who brought her to my office where I met her. This was a very confused woman, not at all evil. She did nothing to the people in whom she was taking refuge. The tourist simply sensed a sort of second opinion in the background that she didn't really accept, and wanted to get rid of the feeling.

A teenage girl was taken by her parents to a satanic conclave in Baja California where they sacrificed an infant. They told her to "give your self to Satan or we will sacrifice another and it will be your fault", so she did as they asked in order to not have another child killed. Years later she came to me to see if anything could be done to get rid of the guilt and fear.

In trance the entity identified itself as "Devil". After a lot of fooling around it became clear that the "devil" had been alive a millennium back. He had died in fear and met other spirits who said that if he haunted people and made them suffer he would never die. (He'd never die anyhow. Big deal.) This was as "evil" as anyone could be, yet it turned out to be a spook with a lot of personal issues who really wanted to survive, and was very frightened. That's like an animal - rage comes from fear.

The most common entity attachment is someone who is loved and whoweants to stick around and make life work. A woman came in with her grandmother stuck on her. She hadn't wanted to release Granny when she died, so she more or less begged her to stick around, which she did. However, this caused problem with memory and a few other things. Eventually it turned out that Granny was protecting her son, the woman's uncle, who had molested the woman. When the truth was out, the woman forgave her molester and wished him well - and that he would stay far far away from her.  Granny was outraged, but came to realize that she was doing no good for herself, for her son, nor for the woman she was haunting, and she left. As she went off into the Light the woman remarked, "She's gone, but she sure is pissed. Then Granny found that she could still make her assistance available from the Light without being a nuisance, and everybody sort of worked it out.

This kind of thing comvinces me that there are no truly evil beings anywhere. There are a lot who have a really negative attitude, but if they knew better they'd do better. Edith Fiori's approach for that is to point out that each has a spark of light within, and no matter how hard they try to hide the fact, each remains a being of light. It only takes a moment to recall their essence and they are transformed - as one said, "Oh - I'm made of light." And then, off to the spirit world properly

dave

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7)

If you believe the Bible to be your source of authority, then there is your answer to who created evil. And why create evil? Good would not be Good without some evil. And, yes Recoverer is right about Lucifer being a king of Babylonia, the word translated as Lucifer is only translated in ONE place that way.

The word means "howl." For more information about the so-called fallen angel Satan, go to bible-truths.com and read the Lake of Fire part 9. Actually I would advise that anyone who is interested to read the entire Lake of Fire series on bible-truths.com. L. Ray Smith proves that Christian Universalism is right using the Bible. If you don't believe me then read what Ray has written, there is alot to read!

Patrick

I feel compelled (not obsessed ) to write more about the Bob Larsen thread.

-A person sees a movie about a character who is possessed.
-Because this causes them to feel fear, they provide a lot of emotional energy to the fragments of mind that relate to the subject of possession. These framents create a minature belief system that remain inert until something stimulates them to come to life. Perhaps a person will feel a moment of anger or fear, and this causes the fragments to come to life.
-They read the books and watch the DVDs Bob Larsen made. This contributes to the fragments disscussed above.
-Despite their being supposedly possessed by a powerful evil being, they manage to go to one of Bob Larsen's events.
-Through the power of suggestion, Bob Larsen is able to get some people to bring the above fragments of mind to life.
-They act precisely as a possessed person is supposedly supposed to act. Growells, grimaces and such.

Some people like to be entertained in a more postive way. They'll go to an event where a hypnotist hypnotizes people to act like chickens and celebraties.  Oh, the power of suggestion can be strong.

I don't mean to suggest that spirits never energetically attach to people. However, I believe the extent and effect of such activity gets overestimated.

Ah So Lao, Recoverer, Vajra, Dave, Patrick, and others -   

Great thread so far.

Ah so - I agree with you that it is required of us to be unpleasant at times to be loving.  Jesus told the religious leaders of his day that that they were whitewashed tombs, and made parables against them, and drove people out of the temple, and got angry, and so on, while a lot of Christians think that to follow Jesus means to put on a mask and be sugary sweet (and insincere) to others all of the time.  I think that to follow Jesus, one actually must be very disagreeable at times - confronting, warning, and even rebuking for their sake or the sake of others.  I agree with you that evil is not eternal (there are evil actions, and probably some mostly evil beings), but I do think evil is real, and (I don't mean this in an offensive way), I don't think you have answers that satisfy justice that can be given to victims of evil.  In other words, telling a rape victim that someone was just expressing a shadow side and that the victim and perpetrator are one, and that they will all meld together eventually like a drop of water falling into an ocean seems to be... lacking justice that compassion should demand.  Or someone who is suffering from a terrible genetic disease - there just seems to be a meaninglessness to the dealing of evil in your world view that has no fairness.  Happy thoughts don't deal with justice issues.  Where is the fairness of life to one of the 3000 people who die a day to totally preventable malaria?  Should someone hold their hand and tell them their suffering is an illusion?  That their ongoing, excruciating agony is a non reality?

Recoverer - as for your latest post(s) first, I totally agree with you that I think Bob Larson is a charlatan (I've read one of his books and am familiar with him a bit).  I think that way because I used to hypnotize my friends in middle school and one of the things I came away from those experiences with is a very, very deep respect for the power of suggestion onthe human mind.  I also have watched a report on Larson before where he comes under some pretty harsh scrutiny for his luxurious living.  It is cool that you do this spiritual work like what was given in your examples (what do you do for a living exactly btw that allows you to do this)?  Lastly I think that Zoroastrianism influenced early Christianity; at times it almost seems as if God is struggling with an evil counterpart in the way things are portrayed in mainstream Christianity.  But Christianity is really a monotheistic religion, and Satan can more correctly be portrayed as an archetype for a spirit / person that is an advesary to God, but not necessarily an equal to him.  I accept a real Satan as a singular being because of the temptation accounts in the bible but don't think that it matters all of that much whether Satan is one being or an archetype - our biggest opponents are ourselves and our own selfish tendencies.  That is what must be overcome.  Blaming a demon or whatever for our own problems is not productive.  Having said that, I do think that demons objectively exist.  I have a better book example in my response to Dave.

Vajra - I feel like you are a very nice person with a good heart, and so please try to not take my disagreements with you personally, but I have a couple pretty fundamental disagreements with your thinking 

Quote:


Maybe my Peck example was a bad example for what I was trying to convey.  Peck was a skeptic before he ran into possessing beings of supernatural evil, which convinced him that supernatural evil was possible.  Which also convinced him that supernatural good was also possible, although I don't think he would have said that good is dependent on evil or vice versa.  I don't think that good and evil are dependent on another or that you need a contrast to know what is happening.  There is no reason for the dependency other than it being a nice idea.  I would say thought that for the possibility of good to exist, the possibility of evil must exist as well, because free will entails the chance to make positive or negative choices.  One could have a bunch of pleasant experiences all in a row without needing to have a painful one.  Yes a painful experience will bring the pleasant experiences into sharper contrast but that doesn't mean that the pleasant experiences are dependent on the painful one.  One doesn't need to be raped to be able to have a succession of positive sexual experiences that are a good thing.  Evil exists because people make evil choices.

Quote:


I've read the Lotus Sutra, and taken classes in Buddhism, and there are things about Buddhism that I like, but honestly this non duality type of thinking is alogical (and goes against my personality, I'll admit).  I don't think that one can argue against nondistinction; if someone's goal is to not think logically and see no distinctions then there is not much to say other than one's views.  Again, I am not trying to be offensive when I write this - you seem like a very nice person.  But I also realize (correct me if I'm wrong) that one of Buddhism's goals is to get people to derail their logical thinking and begin thinking beyond dualities, and to embrace contradictions or something.  And to say that there is no distinction between good and evil is just utterly ridiculous to me.  Again, from my earlier example, that is to tell Pakistani lawyers that there really is no difference for them to be repeatedly beaten and imprisoned, or to live their life in peace.  To give a response like this is absurd, ridiculous, meaningless, and terribly unhelpful to a world that is suffering and needs relief.  Again, I apologize for the harsh language, but I still feel that it is true.  If it was you or I who was being beaten, we would acknowledge there is a difference between being beaten and not.  Or would you really say being beaten and imprisoned is the same as living in peace and leisure???

Dave -
  You definitely have great experiences to write about with helping people deal with difficult spirits, which is very cool.  But just because you haven't run into a demon, does that mean they don't exist?  I haven't run into a polar bear, but that doesn't mean I will say they don't exist.  Most people who believe in this type of thing will make a distinction between an evil spirit being a person who is in the afterlife who was formerly alive, and a demonic spirit being an evil spirit that never was a human (not alien, just disembodied in a physical sense).
  A better book example that talks about the reality of evil is Malichi Martin's Hostage to the Devil - a great book.   It gives a well written account of (I believe) 5 case studies of people who were actually possessed by demons and the attempt to excorcise them.

Patrick -
  I looked up the verse, and in the New International Version it's translated as 'I bring prosperity and bring disaster'.  Which is also a disturbing verse.  The answer is a bit messy, but reality is like that sometimes.  First of all the bible is not inerrant.  This may not be what God intended the prophet to write.  Secondly, the Old Testament involves a lot of tribal reasoning for a tribal time.  In other words, most of what the people of Isreal at that time were looking for and interpreting events through was a much more tribal, pre scientific age of fear and unknown causes for death and disease that influenced their thinking and religion.  God was working with these people and may have just simply worked with what he had to work with.  If I talk to my freshmen students the same way I talk to my Physics students, they would get lost.  I need to talk to the level of my students.  This may be similar to what was happening with Old Testament, tribal, pre scientific peoples and God.

Quote:


This is not a new topic on this site but it is difficult to search the old posts to find those discussions. Don, as "Berserk" (not "2") has posted an example. But I don't remember when.

Don (Berserk):

When it comes to the cases disscussed in Martin and Peck, what are the circumstances which caused people to have their problems(I plan to check the books out at my local library)? I figure that if a person gets messed with, there must be a factor or combination of factors that allows this to happen.

Are you certain that things such as super human strength, floating objects, and knowing the troubled person better than the troubled person knows his or herself, prooves that something other than a former human spirit is involved?

There are situations other than possession where people have been able to exhibit super human strength. For example, manic people.

If an "evil" spirit can look within and find the ability to cause objects to float, couldn't just about anybody, including a troubled person or inhabiting earth bound spirit, do the same, simply by getting in contact with the part of mind that enables one to do so?

Regarding a troubled person knowing more about his or herself more than usual, or knowing about embarrasing moments of the exorcist's life, couldn't this simply be a matter of telepathy? On a past thread, you stated that demons have omnipotent knowledge, because supposedly, through a possessed person, a priest and the young priests who assisted him, were shocked that the supposed demon knew about embarrasing moments in the lead exorcist's life. Isn't it possilble that the spirit responsible, just simply read the exorcist's mind? Isn't it also possible that the troubled person was in a psychotic state of mind, and this enabled the person to have abilities he or she ordinarily wouldn't have?

Regarding the strong feeling of hate, people can be very hateful. I figure this is also true for former human spirits.

Regarding the oposition to Christ etc, couldn't a person feel this way? And if a person could, couldn't a former human spirit who has the same ideas?

How often do extreme cases happen? I've noticed that when you cite cases, you always site the same cases.

I'm not suggesting that unfriendly spirits don't attach themselves to people. It is hard to say how often this occurs. However, I believe it is a mistake to conclude that powerful demons, whatever the heck a demon is, are responsible for the cases that occur, for the reasons you've cited.

Regarding people who end up having stunted psychological growth, this makes me more inclined to believe that something psychological happened rather than something occult. I wonder how Robbie is doing these days.

I don't believe that the power of evil discarnate humans is far superior to that of righteous discarnates.  When it comes to supernatural pyrotechnics, demonic entities can normally put on a better show than ADCs involving the righteous.  So I don't believe that the extreme cases involve mischievous, confused, or evil human spirits.  If you do, I would ask you to clarify the point at which a line could be crossed that convinced you that real demons were involved.  Failure to do so places the skeptic's position in danger of being unfalsifiable even in principle and therefore epistemologically meaningless.

Don

Don:

Basically I believe that no being starts out as evil. We all have the same divine source.  For whatever reason, in the human system, or another system, some beings have life experiences that cause them to become negative minded. They don't become more powerful simply because they became confused enough to become negative minded. If anything, they become less powerful because they separate themselves from their divine source and lower their vibrational rate. Regarding how negative minded they are, if a being ends up living according to attributes such as hate, anger, ill will, and irreverence towards their inaccurate concept of that which is divine, then it doesn't really matter what their source is.

What is important is their intent and what they are capable of.  Going by what my common sense and multiple spiritual experiences have told me, things aren't set up so that an unfriendly spirit can take over the the mind and willpower of a person, unless a person does something to give them the power to do so. When I've had contact with unfriendly spirits, I would tune into love rather than become afraid, and they could never do anything to harm me. I've had so much contact with spirits, I figure that if there was one who could do something to harm me, it would've come around my now. Plus I'm not alone. I know I'm connected to spirits who represent the light, and I receive spiritual strength from them.

I believe it is a mistake to try to define what unfriendly spirits are about according to a particular theology.  What you wrote about satan shows that you understand that what satan is all about, isn't defined clearly and consistently enough for people to define what evil is all about, in the manner Christians sometimes try to define it. For example, a person who believes in satan tends to have a hard time believing that something as simple as an unfriendly earthbound spirit could be responsible for the problems some people have. Such a person tends to be overly keen on trying to escalate things according to a demon based way of thinking.

I do believe that there are some unfriendly spirits who have a lot of experience, and therefore know how to mislead people.





Berserk2 wrote on Nov 9^th, 2007 at 3:13pm:

Hi,

As a contribution to this discussion, I would like to offer this source which hopefully may provide some additional insight on the topic at hand for those who are interested.

-u


Quote:


From "Letters on Yoga", by Sri Aurobindo, Vol I, Section 6 - The Divine and Hostile Powers,

More on 'evil forces' (part II - more than half way down in the link)
as continuation of above in more specifics, from same source here:

http://www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/22-24/eng_1_6.htm

dave_a_mbs wrote on Nov 9^th, 2007 at 5:26pm:



Hi dave,

Yes! and...

Would that they Gitmo good and godly!






(could not resist)

-u

hi Alex..just my 2 cents, you have generated a lot of response. also if one wants to peruse another website where "negs" are continuously studied, the site is Robert Bruce's. I believe we are no longer using the term evil and devil and demon. they are called negs now.
simply because giving them the name demon is lending them power. you don't want to empower a neg, but u do want to not run away if you encounter one.

meditating will take you to the higher realms where there are no negs. the only thing to fear is fear itself.

unless you like doing battle and are good at that sort of thing.

  Very apt term Kyo.

  More in general, i've wondered why some of these consciousnesses are so set in their ways, despite all the help they receive from Beings of Light, etc.

  I've come to the conclusion, and Bruce's 4th book seems to hint this as well, that not all beings were created equally in the 'beginning'. 

  If you read the creation story in Bruce's 4th book carefully, you may see some pretty deep implications about original creation...that it wasn't as neat, harmonious, and orderly as it later became. 

   Bruce seems to state that some sparks were created by the Creator, without a base or awareness of "PUL".   When they separated from Source, or what he calls Consciousness in the book, many of these just weren't making it back to Source like Source had intended for them. 

  When one of the Sparks returned, the first one to return (this one became what Bruce called the "Planning Intelligence", or what i sometimes call the Christ) was filled with this energy or awareness of PUL and the Creator realized this was why this particular Spark returned so fully to the consciousness of the Creator.   This Spark became a creational model and Co-Creator with Source, and right after it returned, the P.I. and Source working together created Sparks specifically to be sent out to help retrieve those originally "lost" Sparks.  These Retrieval Sparks, must have had a dosage of PUL built into their makeup, similar to the first returned Spark.   

  So perhaps some of these original lost Sparks are what became what some might call "demons" or others may refer to as, ""those-who-do-not-yet-see-the-Light-within-themselves"? Maybe some of them also became human, and are the ones which seem to have such a consistently negative pattern within the Earth and within some other systems...ever seeking material power over others with no thought to the pain they facilitate for others?

  If Bruce's account is more or less accurate, and if my interpretation of same is accurate, then in these cases it's not so much a matter of "freewill" as one might think...and these particular consciousnesses just don't seem to know any better--think First Cause and its underlying pattern/influence.   They certainly seem to have other attributes of the Creator, like curiosity for example and maybe this will be the saving grace for some or hopefully all of them. 

  Personally, i hope all the above is not true, and i hope it's all just a matter of temporal freewill, because that would put the chances of such Sparks returning to the Light at a higher percentage, i would think.   

  Oh, btw about the Planning Intelligence, Christ, etc.  If anyone is interested, the Cayce readings say that the only difference between the Greater Self, Spirit Spark, etc. that Yeshua (Jesus) was directly projected out of, and our own, is that this Spark/Disc was the first one to return to Source completely and even before our Earth was imagined.   He became a full, and the first fully conscious Co-Creator with Source (and this particular Universe is the result of that beautiful merging).   Which is what we too may become.   This might remind you of some of Bruce's 4th book dealing with the "Planning Intelligence".   Interestingly, Bruce's partner in exploration connected the Christ concept to what Bruce called the Planning Intelligence.  Coincidence? 

(synopsis from the Cayce readings) When it saw the situation getting real bad down on Earth, this Spark came up with a Rescue/Retrieval Plan.    At first, it manifested bodies for itself to act as a guide, teacher, etc. back to the Light.   But, it realized that this wasn't working as well as it has hoped, and that it would have to take part of the reincarnation  process as well, and to become somewhat stuck...  Cayce's source said that, "he let himself become led in the ways of selfishness".     This was so that He could transcend the Earth within himself, and create the perfect pattern for all souls to follow.   

  Cayce said that out of all the thousands of teachers, guides, etc. who have come to the Earth to help during the cycles of spiritual darkness and crisis, that none before have held the full attunement that he has in his life as Yeshua.  And many of his other selves, also held a near full attunement to Source throughout many of his other lives in the Earth.    When you compare the pattern of all other Greater selves who have become directly involved with the Earth system, none touch the purity, the consistency, the beauty of this above pattern.   This is why, and rightfully so, he has become known somewhat over simplistically as "the Savior".  He truly is, and always was.  And furthermore, he could be considered the "mother/father" of many of the Sparks/Discs in this Universe, and of this Universe itself.  Some of us here 'work' for him so to speak--some from the very beginning, and some later on down the road.

briggsandurlacher3 wrote on Nov 13^th, 2007 at 12:10am:


I'm not sure that's such a good idea.. he apparently claims the British royal family and Bush are all reptiles in disguise I think. I think he is a few sandwiches short of a picnic

  Hi there Orlando.

  You're completely right in your assessment, Cayce's work isn't infallible.   I haven't come across any psychic source which was completely infallible.   I've read up on quite a bit of psychics and their work out there, and many of them do not even give much info at all which can be verified or checked up in a more material way.   Cayce on the other hand, oft gave very specific info which could be verified or not.   All in all, he had a pretty decent track record. Part of the problem, besides the occasional blatant errors in there, is that some of his info has been so misinterpreted, misquoted, or taken out of an important larger context (particularly like his info on Earth changes) that its given the Cayce readings a bad name, yet so many authors who have written books about the Cayce material (and these have been MANY) rarely seem to actually quote large parts of the readings themselves.

  Anyways, i'm speaking more from a synthesis of material, not just Cayce, but info connected to TMI in various ways, some other psychic info here and there, and my own guidance.   They all seem to jive regarding the main points that i shared in that last post.   When more than two credible sources seem to be saying the same or similar thing...well i tend to pay more attention to that info.

  As far as you questions regarding Yeshua, i probably couldn't answer your questions completely satisfactorily.

  However, why not get still within self and ask himself your questions?   He would speak to you, if you would speak with and listen to him. 

Some credible psychic sources agree that he never really left the Earth plane, and still is very active in service here and may become public again at the right time....  Our conception of 'right time' might not be his conception of right time with his much more expanded awareness of all the factors and probabilities. 

  Btw, thanks for the kind words on the other thread regarding my mother and her transitioning.   It was hard at the time, actually strangely it was hardest almost a year after her passing, but once i fully dealt with or faced those feelings, i for the most part stopped missing her or feeling pain when thinking about it.   Surprisingly, it didn't take that long after fully opening up to it.

Orlando:

There is another way to consider the below. Many people have found that lower realms exist.  I believe that despite some of the imperfections of the Christian faith, many people have avoided going to lower realms after they die, partly because of their Christian faith. Perhaps not all Christians have done as Jesus suggested and become non-judgemental and have completely learned to love their neighbors as themselves, but to the extent they have, they have benefited. I know a lot of Christian people who are nice people, partly because of their faith.

Regarding how people have misinterpreted what Jesus had to say,  no matter who would've come to this World, I don't believe it would've been possible to prevent people from misinterpreting what such a person said.  I figure the divine powers that be probably had a pretty good idea how things might turn out, yet they still chose to have Jesus be a messenger. Perhaps this is because they understood that the overall benefits would be positive.

There is also the factor of how the spirit of Christ is available to help people when they ask for help. It sure has helped me.

There is also the possibility that if Christianity had not spread throughout the World, a religion such as Islam might've. If this were true, we probably wouldn't be free to have the disscussions we have on this forum. Each of us would be forced to pray five times a day even if we didn't feel the yearning to do so within our hearts. The ladies who visit this forum would have to keep their faces covered.

orlando123 wrote on Nov 13^th, 2007 at 2:19pm:

I'm with you Orlando. I haven't read much of Icke, but he seems to be really out there with his conspiracy theories. There are some famous hoaxes out there, for example, Carlos Castaneda and T Lopsang Rompa.

orlando123 wrote on Nov 13^th, 2007 at 2:07pm:

Hi Patrick,

bwstaircase89 wrote on Nov 8^th, 2007 at 12:35pm:


You seem to taking the evidence, people speaking in languages they don't know and levitating, and jumping to the conclusion that these activities are caused by "possession" by "demons."  Maybe we ought to back up a little and find out what you mean by the words, "possession" and "demon."

If you mean that the behavior of these people is being influenced by some mean, nasty dead person I have some experience with that stuff and how to deal with it.  But when you attribute this stuff to "possession by demons" you are potentially bringing a lot beliefs into the discussion that may add confusion to what is really going on and what would be the best ways to deal with the problem to eliminate the influence by a mean, nasty dead guy.

So, Patrick, maybe we could start with what you mean by "possession" and "demon?"

Bruce

bwstaircase89 wrote on Dec 4^th, 2007 at 5:44pm:


First I would say, without consent none of this can happen, but giving consent can be tricky.

So, can a dead person take over another person's body?  Well, in my view that is the same as asking, "Can a con artist get you to concent to do something you do not want to do?"  The answer to that question, as with the answer to the first one, is "yes" and "no." 

If a con artist walked up to you and ask you to hand over your car keys and to sign the title to your car over to her, and to hand over the signed title also, would you do it?  I am betting your answer would be, "probably not."  You would probably not let someone else take over control of your car just because they ask you to give them that control.  You would not give them your consent.

Now, let's say you were a more gullible, less informed, person who did not know that some people are con artists.  Let's also say that you believe all people living on this earth are good people who would never steal from you.  Given a long enough period of time, and a string of clever, step-by-step con artist stories, the con artist now has a higher probability of tricking you into consenting to handing over the signed title and keys to your car.  But, if at any point you become aware that you are being conned you can put a stop to the whole process merely by refusing to listen to another word for con artists says.  I would also say there are some circumstances in which some small number of gullible, less informed individuals might be conned consenting into giving over control of their car.

This example is surprisingly similar to the situation in which a dead person might gain control of a physically living persons body.  The dead con artist must first find a way to communicate with a gullible, less informed person.  The vast majority of physically living people are "protected" from such a dead con artist by virtue of the fact that they cannot hear, see, or in any other way be consciously aware of communication from the dead con artist.  So the number of likely candidates is reduced to the relatively small number of physically living people who are in some way "sensitive" to such direct communication.

Now if I were such a dead con artist I would look candidates with a few more specific characteristics.  I would be looking for someone who can hear my nonphysical voice, who can be easily duped.  I would also be looking for someone whose religious or spiritual beliefs have taught them that I am not just a mean and nasty dead person.  Rather, I would be looking for someone who believes in demons.  Specifically, someone who believes that demons of the minions of some all-powerful, negative spiritual being, for example Satan.  Ideally this person would believe that they are powerless to resist whatever I, as a minion of Satan, attempt to do.  It would then be a relatively simple matter to use such beliefs against this physically living person to their own detriment.

I would be free to threaten such a person with a grievous bodily harm to themselves, their friends, or loved ones.  Metaphorically, I could tell such a person that if they will just tell me where they keep the title to their car, I won't set fire to their children.  Seems like a small thing to do to avoid such a terrible fate for their children, so they give their consent by doing it.  I continue my con, taking small steps to gain stronger and stronger control over their activity, threatening hellfire and damnation, or what ever other beliefs they hold I can use against them, as leverage to get them to consent by doing.  The person begins to fall into a pattern of giving their consent by doing what ever I tell them to do.  Eventually, I will be able to get them to consent to  thisdo pretty much anything I want them to do.

So, can a dead person take over another persons body?  Yes and no depending upon who the person has, their level of awareness to nonphysical communication, their gullibility and their beliefs. 

If the dead person could take over another persons body, why in the world would they want to do such a thing in the first place?  The answer to this question can lead us to understanding the situation and how to resolve it.

In every case I have dealt with that you might call "possession" the mean, nasty, dead guy is always just some poor schmo who has died, and is confused, terrified, and doesn't know what else to do.  Often, the dead guy believes that if they could just get back into a physical body the crazy dream they are in would end.  And in the vast majority of cases all that is required to resolve the situation is a simple retrieval of a mean, nasty, dead guy.  The rest of the cases are also resolved through retrieval, it's just that the retrievals can get a little tricky and should not be attempted by amateurs.

Bruce

So that is why people who believe in demons are prone to be possessed? Ah, it is beginning to make sense!

And you retrieved the "bad" dead person and sent them to Focus 27?

Don,

A series of very interesting questions; however, I think that you actually provided the best answer for you own question within he first question you asked. "Do you even believe...." Expectation is mistress to belief.

I can give you my experience. First, as R. Bruce attests, his belief system -- the pattern of how he uses his abilities and such -- assumes demonic posession and such and thus he works with that system. My experiences match Bruce Moen's. A person's will is the strongest aid that have to any experience, and it can be compromised by the expectation and thus the creation of negative experience, wittingly or unwittingly.

Have you breathed the fresh air outside the New Age Ghetto and actually read a standard book on possession like Malachi Martin's book, "Hostage to the Devil" or psychiatrist Scott Peck's books on possession? I have read both, and was not impressed. (I actually read them twice to give them a chance, since I was under the impression that I was suppose to cringe or become fearful. It didn't work, either the first time or the second time). I found them to be quite humorous in what they were actually attempting to do. (Also, having a little bit more knowledge on both after the fact, I can say that the answers that are provided in the books may astound you until you actually discern for yourself the actuality of what happened when the tale was told later, and less sensationally. I will leave it at that.) By the way -- New Age Ghetto? I read that and thought of the "turtle" before you even asked the question. You are so quick to tell people they need to breathe fresh, but it seems that you are taking offense to a "fresh" perspective yourself.

Also, it is you who assume that other people's experiences are limited. Perhaps it is your experience that is limited? Here again, I can only ascertain that you are using some standard gauge that you have found helpful in your life and you judge everyone else to be, as you seem to imply, stupid if they don't have that same view. You demean and belittle them by phrasing everything with the confines of "new age ghetto". For those like me, it doesn't work.

What about you? I don't find the reports here generalized. You seem to be an avid reader, but you contribute little experience? This forum is full of people who report events as they experience them and then either followed up on them here or through whatever material they drew to them to answer it. I sincerely feel though that you will want to have a more competitve answer, but it must come from someone else who is drawn to that sort of drama.


E.

One has to answer the question "in what way does classifying entities as demonic as opposed to deceased human beings assist us in dealing with them, and understanding the divine?"  For those with a background in demonology, I suppose there would be an idea that there is true evil in the world and that these discarnate entities must be thought of in a different way than people, because they never were people, and they have their own agenda.

Belief in these entities does seem to play a role in inviting their entry into one's earthly life - but then again, belief deep down in our core creates much of what we see manifest in physical reality.  When Don asks how a child could have invited a discarnate human in - I say it would be relatively easy - seemingly harmless games with ouija boards capitalize on the child's innocence to engage in the physical control (moving the hand on a ouija board), which then may make the invitation.

I am not sure the purpose of classifying demons as different nonphysical entities. I don't doubt that nonhuman nonphysical entitities exist; Monroe and Moen have talked of "the gathering," and other encounters with nonhuman discarncates, as have others.  We are all unique souls, and manifestations of the divine (albeit incarnate now).  Why should I lend power to the notion of evil and demons, when they are by definition a different type of consciousness.  A soul engages in the demonic when it moves away from God.  Anger, hatred, cruelty, whether engaged in by human or nonhuman consciousness all move the individual soul away from the divine.

I know that it upsets Don to think that many on this board ("New Agers") don't believe in a biblical accounting of evil and demonology.  It galls you, Don, to think that there are those on this board who believe that love directed at demons can solve the problems associated with these encounters - because it sounds like a "feel good," nonthinking solution to what is a more complicated problem.  I would guess that you prefer describing a demon as an unfathomable expression of evil, not a discarnate human lost or gone astray.  As such, for you and those who believe in demons and demonology, there is no hope of sending the so-called "demon," back to God.  Because for those who believe in demons as being intrinsically pure evil there is an absolute aspect to it.

I like what Eternal Essence says.  Many, like Bruce and Dave here on this board have some real-earth experience with these entities.  Malachi Martin may have written a compelling book, but are his experiences in any way more compelling than the direct experiences of those on this board?  Could not Martin and other priest's background in their religion have affected the outcome of these encounters?  Also, Martin's writings must be taken in context with the criticism levied against him in the book Clerical Error: A True Story, by Robert Blair Kaiser, in which a fellow Jesuit documented how Martin seduced his wife, broke his marriage, falsified stories and information, and acted in a manner that many would describe as "wicked."  The reference is:  http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/030802/030802i.htm
Kaiser was a journalist and by all accounts had always been honest and straightforward in his reporting.


I can not pretend to have answers myself on all this.  I believe in many possibilities, and as such I personally believe in the existence of discarnate entities who are and always have been non-human.  However, I see no point in indulging myself in tales of possession, superhuman strength mind reading and telekinesis.   All of that is possible and could have happened, yet standing here in awe of the demonic - separating the demonic out as something to be feared and respected holds no particular interest for me.  It merely supports the demonic by the very awe and belief in it.


Matthew

  Well said Matthew, especially the last part.   Ultimately, there is nothing to be feared.  Sure the physical body can be harmed, and even one's psyche messed up a bit, but not the real, eternal part of us.   As for the latter part, why fear 'demons" when plenty of incarnate humans could do the temporal harms that i outlined. 

  Don, isn't a big part of Christ's crucifixion and Resurrection a message to the world and to us that a child of the Creator cannot be truly harmed by anything outside of itself?   While we individually may not function from the full reality like he did, isn't the way to get there primarily about overcoming fear by concentrating on love and faith in the ultimate goodness and growth of life, no matter what happens to you?    I think its a big part of how he himself got to the pure divine awareness and livingness that he got to.

  Sure, Christ dealt with possessions in his public life, but did he tell anyone to be fearful of these?    Plus i can't help but to notice that for him, it wasn't all that hard dealing with these cases unlike some epic, dramatic battle between a few Priests and a possessing influence.  Perhaps that does have something to do with both the beliefs and the ways the priests lived, and doesn't reflect directly on the awesome power of these beings?

  Also, if one considers the possibility of 'karma' and of past lives, then it opens up possibilities for a child with no conscious preconceptions of a negative nonphysical consciousness could become involved with such conditions and circumstances.    And it could be either their innate Light, or perhaps some unconscious darkness which attracts this.

The book actually looks interesting, Darth, but it's going to just irritate the hell out of everyone if you keep posting those comments about Bruce Moen. You should just let it go and hang out for a while if you like. There are plenty of interesting things to read about here as well.

love, blink

Darth Benedict wrote on Dec 5^th, 2007 at 2:04am:

you are out of line. I'm requesting this post be removed. writing books for the most part yields little financial gain, unless the author produces sensationalism with its attendant entertainment value. get a life Darth.
btw, you can't even spell.

Doc said:  Why should I lend power to the notion of evil and demons, when they are by definition a different type of consciousness.  A soul engages in the demonic when it moves away from God.  Anger, hatred, cruelty, whether engaged in by human or nonhuman consciousness all move the individual soul away from the divine.
_____

thanks Doc. I think this is the crux of the matter, hitting the nail on the head so to speak, it boils down to where we focus our mind, in a dualistic world, we have a choice and Doc asks a question here for all of us: Why indeed lend our focus away from what is good, what is god, what is love, which love in a being is good. the word god derived from the word good. it is not burying one's head in the sand, it is a valid choice to be focusing on personal reality creating what shall be taking up residence in my house of consciousness and what shall not be making itself at home there, is my choice, and thank god, at the least I am queen of my head!

as well the perceptions follow the primary beliefs, so to focus in the goodness of humanity, the divine as Doc calls it is to be training ourselves in service orientation also, for as mentioned here, negs are both physical and nonphysical, human or nonhuman, nonhuman means having never entered physical area of Earth.

I'm not much into the bible, yet I find myself remembering sections of it to aid me now and then in my self expression. for instance I recall it did say that Lucifer, satan, used to be god's most glorious angel. then he was cast out of heaven, for the reason he became jealous that god was loving the other, less glorious angels perhaps, the same as he loved Lucifer.

so we look at the symbolism of the bible. I reckon this to how a dualistic world was created whereby we now have subjected ourselves to perceptions of good versus evil, man/woman, two of this, two of that, two eyes, two hemispheres of brain, two legs in locomotion, look around, everything you see has an opposite.

This jealousy thing is another crux of the question, for we can assume Satan, the epitome of rebellion against god, if Satan and his legions, if he had not become with such jealousy, he would have been allowed to stay in the heavens, remaining on the right hand side of god.
So where is he now? I mean if we are looking at it simplistically. I believe he had been loosed on the Earth, but I heard recently (opinion) he has been bound. Meaning to my new age ghetto self, that there are indeed forces active on the Earth now where we may the more easily overcome any jealousy and rebellion to principle of goodness, of the divine order of things (another viewpoint I own) which can only exist in ourselves, if indeed, the entire universe is in my own head.

This means I must learn to notice if I am rebellious, jealous, seek revenge, etc. these are attributes of Satan, and they are observed within all of mankind as a negative feeling, not as an entity who has power over me, and I certainly made my "choice" long ago.

at some point in life I believe we all must make these choices where to focus. In a god conversation once at age 18, I was asked to make the choice of attaining power for myself, or would I look to JC, to remember that PUL he had.

was I there? Christ, I wish I could remember fully. The only thing I remember about JC is in my emotional body. I pay attention to emotions as they lead me to what I believe about myself, thus that in turn leads me to create my personal reality. At the time of this conviction (I'm speaking solely from personal inner journey, not a book) other beings attended to me. I was made to realize the power we all contain, to misuse it, for self aggrandizement, is to do as Satan did. with Satan, despite he was glorious in his beauty, jealousy and rebellion towards all others is  a thought system utter selfishness, which is unlike PUL. so, to speak simply again, I made a choice to align with something that was saying I love you. something familiar, and it said the ways of this physical world is to have power.

The irony of it, is that power mongers are so frequently brought to their knees in the end, it's almost humorous to watch, unless I could also feel their suffering, which makes me hold my tongue. It's PUL which bestows any wisdom I might have. seems its a daily choice however, but I'm grateful for my life.
we're not alone folks, we are given that which we ask for, even power if we want that, but I would hope all eventually choose, at the very least, not to kill or maim, rape or pillage, which is the extreme of the Satanic analogy energy concept.

so since it's a dual world where we can't seem to get our minds off the good and bad of it, we can go round and round, and we can work with each other, or we can divide ourselves into groups, whatever else we may be, we are dependent on each other, and here, we employ the idea the pen is a sword of truth; focus on what is to be assisting the divine in the human is something I would be able to hear JC say, as I picture him trudging down the same dirt road I do.

speaking of using power for good or evil: my brother one day chose to bring in Satanic forces with a small group of his friends. I remember arguing with my brother at age 21, he was 25. I said choose love. he said no, I choose power. I said you are wrong. of course we never got anywhere with this conversation and he chose power.
he called upon Satan and Satan did oblige. He was wishing to gain favors from Satan, however as he progressed into this area, it wasn't long after he came to me wild eyed, quite filled with panic that Satan was wooing him in principle, no doubt these were negs who complied to his requests to show him what they could do, and it frightened him so badly, he turned away from such things..he has a basic good heart, and he too, has choice where to be looking in his journey, obviously, don't mess with forces unless you know what you're doing. I mean one neg at a time you can deal with, and that neg may be talking to you just as some thought form, or could be an actual astral body attached to a person who calls it in for the struggle of wills to ensue, one has to develop their own will; thats a separate discourse altogether, but you must admit there are persons easily led, and others who have developed a will, in compliance with divine alignment.  but you certainly don't bring a neg to your table and make a deal with it. Make your deals with the higher light beings. they are there, they just want to see if you can get through your life on your own steam, your own character building.
its like this; I'm a mother. if I try to show my kid how to build a toy erector set, the kid wants to do it themselves. Let the kid figure it out. they will. u have to have faith in your kid.

love you guys, I love to talk too. 

In the past, I have posted my family's dramatic experiences with exorcisms, including a dramatic and successful attempt to ward off a possession of my 3-year-old cousin (E, now a psychiatrist).  E was waiting in the car with his Mom (my Aunt Ruth), while his Dad was exorcising a woman inside the nearby house.  At the moment the exoricism was successfully performed, E's eyes rulled up in his head so that only the whites were visible.  Young E had previously been calm, but now he erupted in uncontollable crying which lasted for a very long time, until his parents' prayers brought the needed protection.  E now recalls a vision of himself been loving cradled in Jesus' protective arms.  Other young children are not so fortunate.  E was far too young to grasp the concept of the demonic and thus to have unconsicously invited the entity in.   Very interesting incident, but the incident is seen in isolation of the other variables that may have been present, both within and without of the home and the information that was presented after this incident. I am not suggesting that the incident was not real to those involved, but am not convinced that the incident itself didn't involve more around those involved than I know.


Also, Malachi Martin investigated one major possession case in which a young athletic priest had just successfully performed an exorcism, and so, he was invited to perform an exorcism in a major possession case.  He was struck dead the moment he arrived at the bedside of the possessed.  Not all possessing entities are equally powerful and the  question naturally arises whether some of these entities are human and others are not.  For example, do discarnate humans have the power to strike a well-meaning exorcist dead?  In my view, demons are very real. I understand your viewpoint.

I have been trying to help a skeptical scientist who was ambushed by a neg yaers ago and has been battling possession ever since.  From my conversations with her, I have concluded that she did not unwittingly invite this malevolent entity in!  I can't comment on this case because I am uncertain as to the surrounding information. What causes the scientist to be skeptical? You say she is/was possessed and still battles with it, but why doesn't she share your view -- what is she suggesting is the cause and why do you doubt her?


I read the new books you listed, Malachi and Peck. What was the third? I read Malachi twice, the first time I was not convinced. Under the impression I may have missed something important, I read it again, slower and much more thoughtfully. Still, nothing. I realized the sensationalism of the case, but came away feeling that I was not swayed in the least. As I recall, at this moment, Malachi also spoke out against the vision of Mary at Medjugore (that word is probably misspelled.)

E.

Speaking of ET's!

I don't know if any of you are interested in crops circles and the like. Here are some links:
http://www.tribalmessenger.org/prophecies/crop-circles.htm
http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/interface2005.htm

Anyone else curious about ET's and Aliens? I am fascinated with them and wonder what it would be like if we met on Earth someday. Maybe they will help with the earth changes?

(1) [Matthew:] "One has to answer the question "in what way does classifying entities as demonic as opposed to deceased human beings assist us in dealing with them?"
_________________________________________________________________________
Just the opposite!  One must answer the question, "In what way does classifying entities as deceased humans as opposed to demons assist us in dealing with them?" I offer a preliminary response to your question in section (5) below.

(2) [Matthew:] "Belief in these entities does seem to play a role in inviting their entry into one's earthly life."
____________________________________________________________________________
Occasional correlation of  factors A and B in no way imples that A caused B or vice versa.
New Agers routinely fail to seek out exceptions that challenge their preconceptions.  A broader perspective that transcends New Age "in house" literature confronts the honest seeker with cases where belief does not seem to be a signficant factor in possession.  

(3) Matthew:] "When Don asks how a child could have invited a discarnate human in - I say it would be relatively easy - seemingly harmless games with ouija boards capitalize on the child's innocence to engage in the physical control (moving the hand on a ouija board), which then may make the invitation."
________________________________

A convenient New Age dodge that ignores that obvious fact that some children (e.g. my psychiatrist cousin at age 3) were too young to play such games or to conceptualize the threat posed by a demonic entity!  In any case, no occult devices were present in my cousin's home.  How prone New Agers are to offering this sort of simplistic panacea to bafflingly complex questions!  How galling it is to New Agers that, while they quiver in their carefully insulated literary Ghettos, Christians like me read broadly in New Age literature, parapsychology, and other studies that challenge our preconceptions!  In several years on this site, I have rarely encountered New Agers with a comparably diverse and comprehensive investigative regimen.

(4) [Matthew:] "I know that it upsets Don to think that many on this board ("New Agers") don't believe in a biblical accounting of evil and demonology.  .  I would guess that you prefer describing a demon as an unfathomable expression of evil, not a discarnate human lost or gone astray."
___________________

On the contrary, I have repeatedly advocated agnosticism as to the metaphysical nature and origin of these entities in deference to an exhaustive interdisciplinary investigation into the function, power, and limitations of the whole range of these evil entities.  There is nothing uniquely biblical about my insistence on a more honest and open inquiry that acknowledgers the possibility that genuine possession cases may have multiple causes, both discarnate human and nonhuman.  How eager New Agers are to project the narrow scope of their own live options onto others with a much broader perspective!  In fact, despite being a Christian, I want to keep alive and thoroughly research the possibility that all possession cases are merely misdiagnosed cases of psychopathology and that all evidence for an afterlife is bogus.  

(5) [Matthew:] "It galls you, Don, to think that there are those on this board who believe that love directed at demons can solve the problems associated with these encounters...
As such, for you and those who believe in demons and demonology, there is no hope of sending the so-called "demon," back to God."
_______________________________________________

Another ignorant assumption in the service of your myopic agenda!  There is a longstanding thread of thought in early patristic Catholicism that Satan and his minions will all eventually be saved.  In fact, your hope is refuted by psychiatrist Scott Peck's concrete encounters with evil.  When faced with evil, Peck routinely reacted at first on the assumption that reformation and progress were possible through clinical insight.  But he slowly discovers by repeated experience that such reformation is impossible.  Thus, he underlines the essential role of "the clash" between the exorcist and the possessing entity, once the invadiing entity has been carefully isolated from the victim's personality.  The entity responds not to touchy-feely PUL, but to the invocation of the authority and power of Christ.  How galling it is to New Agers to face this solution!  How convenient it is for New Agers to snatch a trout out of a creek and imagine that they are now qualified to safely wrestle with any shark!  How pathetic it is that New Agers cringe in their literary Ghetto, read their 'in house" books on Spirit Releasement therapy, and then console themselves with the false assumption that Christians deny the possession of victims by discarnate humans!

Don

Quote Don:
"The entity responds not to touchy-feely PUL, but to the invocation of the authority and power of Christ."

  You make an assumption here. You are assuming that what is called "PUL" is New Age hooey booey and powerless. Why don't you think about that PUL could be very close to what you call "the authority and power of Christ". In my experience, PUL (or at least what I guess this PUL is which is talked about on this site) is an extremely powerful energy (in lack of a better term). To handle this energy it needs practice and the right state of mind though. I always think when I hear you, you on the one, and many "New Age" posters here on the other side, both sides are closer to each other than each side might think, but won't realize it because of stubbornly insisting on particular terms and systems.

Quote Don:
"(2) [Matthew:] "Belief in these entities does seem to play a role in inviting their entry into one's earthly life." 
   Occasional correlation of  factors A and B in no way imples that A caused B or vice versa. 
New Agers routinely fail to seek out exceptions that challenge their preconceptions.  A broader perspective that transcends New Age "in house" literature confronts the honest seeker with cases where belief does not seem to be a signficant factor in possession."

We only can look from case to case. All of those cases will never provide anything close to a scientific valuable conclusion. For example, when you state there are cases of people who have never believed in demons, but became possessed. Who can know this for certain? Who knows the background of a person so well that this could be stated sound proof? It isn't possible. I want to emphasize that it doesn't make sense to try to argument in a way that it sounds like talking about absolute hard facts. This cannot be, because of the nature of the issue. Any author tells his/her own story. Even when an author is credible in what he/she reports, there is still the question about the interpretation and the credibility of the sources the author used.

Ever heard of a "New Ager" got killed when attempting to free one of a "demon"? I haven't. It's always the heroic priests, isn't it? (But I could be wrong of course, but something to consider)

I am open to possibility that there are nonhuman entities having some influence on some people. But I am against semi-proofs and semi-logic.

The "power of demons":
In my theory, powerful PSI kind of occurances can only remotely be caused by nonphysical entities, when they use the latent psychokinetic abilities of their hosts. I leave it open though, if any of these cases (especially psychokinesis) is scientifically well enough documented to call it proven. I don't know of any good video material documenting psychokinesis.


Spooky

Demons are real evil entities existing in the spiritual realms, like it or not, and can posses the body of an absent soul if we are not very careful in our OBS;s.

Demons are not projections from our deep fears but an unexplained reality of existence

Regards

Alan

Evil is a reality!

I have some more thoughts on the possesion thing.

First of all, if a spirit is going to be able to possess a person, there has to be an explanation as to how a spirit would do so. Certainly we know enough about consciousness and energy to figure out what precisely takes place.

Here is one possibility. Sometimes people have multiple personalities.  When one personality manifests, the other personalities will be in a state of abidance. When a spirit attaches to a person, another personality possibility is added without a person having to create another personality. When it comes to which personality predominates, it is a matter of willpower.  If a person hasn't developed the habbit of not responding to his or her own negative impulses, chances are they will have a hard time resisting the negative impulses that come from an unfriendly spirit. What would they have to resist with, if they have similar personality traits?

My first experience with a negative minded spirit happened while I was meditating one night. Suddenly I saw a man who had a very negative look.  His energy attached to my energy and I felt a very dark feeling.  My energy level doubled. Partly because of his energy, partly because my own energy level increased as a means of defense. I didn't become afraid. Instead I mentally communicated to him "I'm commited to God, love and the happiness of all beings, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about this." I then tuned into my spirit self and love as much as I could. After about 30 seconds the negative spirit went away.

Regarding children who get effected, it may be that spirits go after them because they haven't had the chance to develop a strong sense of self. This makes them vulnerable. Especially if they are at the age where they conceed to the lower part of theirselves, as when they have temper tantrums.  I read that when a child does something such as take medication for attention deficient order, that child's energy field becomes weekened, and becomes more vulnerable to attack.