Doc said:  Why should I lend power to the notion of evil and demons, when they are by definition a different type of consciousness.  A soul engages in the demonic when it moves away from God.  Anger, hatred, cruelty, whether engaged in by human or nonhuman consciousness all move the individual soul away from the divine.
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thanks Doc. I think this is the crux of the matter, hitting the nail on the head so to speak, it boils down to where we focus our mind, in a dualistic world, we have a choice and Doc asks a question here for all of us: Why indeed lend our focus away from what is good, what is god, what is love, which love in a being is good. the word god derived from the word good. it is not burying one's head in the sand, it is a valid choice to be focusing on personal reality creating what shall be taking up residence in my house of consciousness and what shall not be making itself at home there, is my choice, and thank god, at the least I am queen of my head!

as well the perceptions follow the primary beliefs, so to focus in the goodness of humanity, the divine as Doc calls it is to be training ourselves in service orientation also, for as mentioned here, negs are both physical and nonphysical, human or nonhuman, nonhuman means having never entered physical area of Earth.

I'm not much into the bible, yet I find myself remembering sections of it to aid me now and then in my self expression. for instance I recall it did say that Lucifer, satan, used to be god's most glorious angel. then he was cast out of heaven, for the reason he became jealous that god was loving the other, less glorious angels perhaps, the same as he loved Lucifer.

so we look at the symbolism of the bible. I reckon this to how a dualistic world was created whereby we now have subjected ourselves to perceptions of good versus evil, man/woman, two of this, two of that, two eyes, two hemispheres of brain, two legs in locomotion, look around, everything you see has an opposite.

This jealousy thing is another crux of the question, for we can assume Satan, the epitome of rebellion against god, if Satan and his legions, if he had not become with such jealousy, he would have been allowed to stay in the heavens, remaining on the right hand side of god.
So where is he now? I mean if we are looking at it simplistically. I believe he had been loosed on the Earth, but I heard recently (opinion) he has been bound. Meaning to my new age ghetto self, that there are indeed forces active on the Earth now where we may the more easily overcome any jealousy and rebellion to principle of goodness, of the divine order of things (another viewpoint I own) which can only exist in ourselves, if indeed, the entire universe is in my own head.

This means I must learn to notice if I am rebellious, jealous, seek revenge, etc. these are attributes of Satan, and they are observed within all of mankind as a negative feeling, not as an entity who has power over me, and I certainly made my "choice" long ago.

at some point in life I believe we all must make these choices where to focus. In a god conversation once at age 18, I was asked to make the choice of attaining power for myself, or would I look to JC, to remember that PUL he had.

was I there? Christ, I wish I could remember fully. The only thing I remember about JC is in my emotional body. I pay attention to emotions as they lead me to what I believe about myself, thus that in turn leads me to create my personal reality. At the time of this conviction (I'm speaking solely from personal inner journey, not a book) other beings attended to me. I was made to realize the power we all contain, to misuse it, for self aggrandizement, is to do as Satan did. with Satan, despite he was glorious in his beauty, jealousy and rebellion towards all others is  a thought system utter selfishness, which is unlike PUL. so, to speak simply again, I made a choice to align with something that was saying I love you. something familiar, and it said the ways of this physical world is to have power.

The irony of it, is that power mongers are so frequently brought to their knees in the end, it's almost humorous to watch, unless I could also feel their suffering, which makes me hold my tongue. It's PUL which bestows any wisdom I might have. seems its a daily choice however, but I'm grateful for my life.
we're not alone folks, we are given that which we ask for, even power if we want that, but I would hope all eventually choose, at the very least, not to kill or maim, rape or pillage, which is the extreme of the Satanic analogy energy concept.

so since it's a dual world where we can't seem to get our minds off the good and bad of it, we can go round and round, and we can work with each other, or we can divide ourselves into groups, whatever else we may be, we are dependent on each other, and here, we employ the idea the pen is a sword of truth; focus on what is to be assisting the divine in the human is something I would be able to hear JC say, as I picture him trudging down the same dirt road I do.

speaking of using power for good or evil: my brother one day chose to bring in Satanic forces with a small group of his friends. I remember arguing with my brother at age 21, he was 25. I said choose love. he said no, I choose power. I said you are wrong. of course we never got anywhere with this conversation and he chose power.
he called upon Satan and Satan did oblige. He was wishing to gain favors from Satan, however as he progressed into this area, it wasn't long after he came to me wild eyed, quite filled with panic that Satan was wooing him in principle, no doubt these were negs who complied to his requests to show him what they could do, and it frightened him so badly, he turned away from such things..he has a basic good heart, and he too, has choice where to be looking in his journey, obviously, don't mess with forces unless you know what you're doing. I mean one neg at a time you can deal with, and that neg may be talking to you just as some thought form, or could be an actual astral body attached to a person who calls it in for the struggle of wills to ensue, one has to develop their own will; thats a separate discourse altogether, but you must admit there are persons easily led, and others who have developed a will, in compliance with divine alignment.  but you certainly don't bring a neg to your table and make a deal with it. Make your deals with the higher light beings. they are there, they just want to see if you can get through your life on your own steam, your own character building.
its like this; I'm a mother. if I try to show my kid how to build a toy erector set, the kid wants to do it themselves. Let the kid figure it out. they will. u have to have faith in your kid.

love you guys, I love to talk too. 

In the past, I have posted my family's dramatic experiences with exorcisms, including a dramatic and successful attempt to ward off a possession of my 3-year-old cousin (E, now a psychiatrist).  E was waiting in the car with his Mom (my Aunt Ruth), while his Dad was exorcising a woman inside the nearby house.  At the moment the exoricism was successfully performed, E's eyes rulled up in his head so that only the whites were visible.  Young E had previously been calm, but now he erupted in uncontollable crying which lasted for a very long time, until his parents' prayers brought the needed protection.  E now recalls a vision of himself been loving cradled in Jesus' protective arms.  Other young children are not so fortunate.  E was far too young to grasp the concept of the demonic and thus to have unconsicously invited the entity in.   Very interesting incident, but the incident is seen in isolation of the other variables that may have been present, both within and without of the home and the information that was presented after this incident. I am not suggesting that the incident was not real to those involved, but am not convinced that the incident itself didn't involve more around those involved than I know.


Also, Malachi Martin investigated one major possession case in which a young athletic priest had just successfully performed an exorcism, and so, he was invited to perform an exorcism in a major possession case.  He was struck dead the moment he arrived at the bedside of the possessed.  Not all possessing entities are equally powerful and the  question naturally arises whether some of these entities are human and others are not.  For example, do discarnate humans have the power to strike a well-meaning exorcist dead?  In my view, demons are very real. I understand your viewpoint.

I have been trying to help a skeptical scientist who was ambushed by a neg yaers ago and has been battling possession ever since.  From my conversations with her, I have concluded that she did not unwittingly invite this malevolent entity in!  I can't comment on this case because I am uncertain as to the surrounding information. What causes the scientist to be skeptical? You say she is/was possessed and still battles with it, but why doesn't she share your view -- what is she suggesting is the cause and why do you doubt her?


I read the new books you listed, Malachi and Peck. What was the third? I read Malachi twice, the first time I was not convinced. Under the impression I may have missed something important, I read it again, slower and much more thoughtfully. Still, nothing. I realized the sensationalism of the case, but came away feeling that I was not swayed in the least. As I recall, at this moment, Malachi also spoke out against the vision of Mary at Medjugore (that word is probably misspelled.)

E.

Speaking of ET's!

I don't know if any of you are interested in crops circles and the like. Here are some links:
http://www.tribalmessenger.org/prophecies/crop-circles.htm
http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/interface2005.htm

Anyone else curious about ET's and Aliens? I am fascinated with them and wonder what it would be like if we met on Earth someday. Maybe they will help with the earth changes?

(1) [Matthew:] "One has to answer the question "in what way does classifying entities as demonic as opposed to deceased human beings assist us in dealing with them?"
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Just the opposite!  One must answer the question, "In what way does classifying entities as deceased humans as opposed to demons assist us in dealing with them?" I offer a preliminary response to your question in section (5) below.

(2) [Matthew:] "Belief in these entities does seem to play a role in inviting their entry into one's earthly life."
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Occasional correlation of  factors A and B in no way imples that A caused B or vice versa.
New Agers routinely fail to seek out exceptions that challenge their preconceptions.  A broader perspective that transcends New Age "in house" literature confronts the honest seeker with cases where belief does not seem to be a signficant factor in possession.  

(3) Matthew:] "When Don asks how a child could have invited a discarnate human in - I say it would be relatively easy - seemingly harmless games with ouija boards capitalize on the child's innocence to engage in the physical control (moving the hand on a ouija board), which then may make the invitation."
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A convenient New Age dodge that ignores that obvious fact that some children (e.g. my psychiatrist cousin at age 3) were too young to play such games or to conceptualize the threat posed by a demonic entity!  In any case, no occult devices were present in my cousin's home.  How prone New Agers are to offering this sort of simplistic panacea to bafflingly complex questions!  How galling it is to New Agers that, while they quiver in their carefully insulated literary Ghettos, Christians like me read broadly in New Age literature, parapsychology, and other studies that challenge our preconceptions!  In several years on this site, I have rarely encountered New Agers with a comparably diverse and comprehensive investigative regimen.

(4) [Matthew:] "I know that it upsets Don to think that many on this board ("New Agers") don't believe in a biblical accounting of evil and demonology.  .  I would guess that you prefer describing a demon as an unfathomable expression of evil, not a discarnate human lost or gone astray."
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On the contrary, I have repeatedly advocated agnosticism as to the metaphysical nature and origin of these entities in deference to an exhaustive interdisciplinary investigation into the function, power, and limitations of the whole range of these evil entities.  There is nothing uniquely biblical about my insistence on a more honest and open inquiry that acknowledgers the possibility that genuine possession cases may have multiple causes, both discarnate human and nonhuman.  How eager New Agers are to project the narrow scope of their own live options onto others with a much broader perspective!  In fact, despite being a Christian, I want to keep alive and thoroughly research the possibility that all possession cases are merely misdiagnosed cases of psychopathology and that all evidence for an afterlife is bogus.  

(5) [Matthew:] "It galls you, Don, to think that there are those on this board who believe that love directed at demons can solve the problems associated with these encounters...
As such, for you and those who believe in demons and demonology, there is no hope of sending the so-called "demon," back to God."
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Another ignorant assumption in the service of your myopic agenda!  There is a longstanding thread of thought in early patristic Catholicism that Satan and his minions will all eventually be saved.  In fact, your hope is refuted by psychiatrist Scott Peck's concrete encounters with evil.  When faced with evil, Peck routinely reacted at first on the assumption that reformation and progress were possible through clinical insight.  But he slowly discovers by repeated experience that such reformation is impossible.  Thus, he underlines the essential role of "the clash" between the exorcist and the possessing entity, once the invadiing entity has been carefully isolated from the victim's personality.  The entity responds not to touchy-feely PUL, but to the invocation of the authority and power of Christ.  How galling it is to New Agers to face this solution!  How convenient it is for New Agers to snatch a trout out of a creek and imagine that they are now qualified to safely wrestle with any shark!  How pathetic it is that New Agers cringe in their literary Ghetto, read their 'in house" books on Spirit Releasement therapy, and then console themselves with the false assumption that Christians deny the possession of victims by discarnate humans!

Don

Quote Don:
"The entity responds not to touchy-feely PUL, but to the invocation of the authority and power of Christ."

  You make an assumption here. You are assuming that what is called "PUL" is New Age hooey booey and powerless. Why don't you think about that PUL could be very close to what you call "the authority and power of Christ". In my experience, PUL (or at least what I guess this PUL is which is talked about on this site) is an extremely powerful energy (in lack of a better term). To handle this energy it needs practice and the right state of mind though. I always think when I hear you, you on the one, and many "New Age" posters here on the other side, both sides are closer to each other than each side might think, but won't realize it because of stubbornly insisting on particular terms and systems.

Quote Don:
"(2) [Matthew:] "Belief in these entities does seem to play a role in inviting their entry into one's earthly life." 
   Occasional correlation of  factors A and B in no way imples that A caused B or vice versa. 
New Agers routinely fail to seek out exceptions that challenge their preconceptions.  A broader perspective that transcends New Age "in house" literature confronts the honest seeker with cases where belief does not seem to be a signficant factor in possession."

We only can look from case to case. All of those cases will never provide anything close to a scientific valuable conclusion. For example, when you state there are cases of people who have never believed in demons, but became possessed. Who can know this for certain? Who knows the background of a person so well that this could be stated sound proof? It isn't possible. I want to emphasize that it doesn't make sense to try to argument in a way that it sounds like talking about absolute hard facts. This cannot be, because of the nature of the issue. Any author tells his/her own story. Even when an author is credible in what he/she reports, there is still the question about the interpretation and the credibility of the sources the author used.

Ever heard of a "New Ager" got killed when attempting to free one of a "demon"? I haven't. It's always the heroic priests, isn't it? (But I could be wrong of course, but something to consider)

I am open to possibility that there are nonhuman entities having some influence on some people. But I am against semi-proofs and semi-logic.

The "power of demons":
In my theory, powerful PSI kind of occurances can only remotely be caused by nonphysical entities, when they use the latent psychokinetic abilities of their hosts. I leave it open though, if any of these cases (especially psychokinesis) is scientifically well enough documented to call it proven. I don't know of any good video material documenting psychokinesis.


Spooky

Demons are real evil entities existing in the spiritual realms, like it or not, and can posses the body of an absent soul if we are not very careful in our OBS;s.

Demons are not projections from our deep fears but an unexplained reality of existence

Regards

Alan

Evil is a reality!

I have some more thoughts on the possesion thing.

First of all, if a spirit is going to be able to possess a person, there has to be an explanation as to how a spirit would do so. Certainly we know enough about consciousness and energy to figure out what precisely takes place.

Here is one possibility. Sometimes people have multiple personalities.  When one personality manifests, the other personalities will be in a state of abidance. When a spirit attaches to a person, another personality possibility is added without a person having to create another personality. When it comes to which personality predominates, it is a matter of willpower.  If a person hasn't developed the habbit of not responding to his or her own negative impulses, chances are they will have a hard time resisting the negative impulses that come from an unfriendly spirit. What would they have to resist with, if they have similar personality traits?

My first experience with a negative minded spirit happened while I was meditating one night. Suddenly I saw a man who had a very negative look.  His energy attached to my energy and I felt a very dark feeling.  My energy level doubled. Partly because of his energy, partly because my own energy level increased as a means of defense. I didn't become afraid. Instead I mentally communicated to him "I'm commited to God, love and the happiness of all beings, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about this." I then tuned into my spirit self and love as much as I could. After about 30 seconds the negative spirit went away.

Regarding children who get effected, it may be that spirits go after them because they haven't had the chance to develop a strong sense of self. This makes them vulnerable. Especially if they are at the age where they conceed to the lower part of theirselves, as when they have temper tantrums.  I read that when a child does something such as take medication for attention deficient order, that child's energy field becomes weekened, and becomes more vulnerable to attack.