Hi Patrick,

bwstaircase89 wrote on Nov 8^th, 2007 at 12:35pm:


You seem to taking the evidence, people speaking in languages they don't know and levitating, and jumping to the conclusion that these activities are caused by "possession" by "demons."  Maybe we ought to back up a little and find out what you mean by the words, "possession" and "demon."

If you mean that the behavior of these people is being influenced by some mean, nasty dead person I have some experience with that stuff and how to deal with it.  But when you attribute this stuff to "possession by demons" you are potentially bringing a lot beliefs into the discussion that may add confusion to what is really going on and what would be the best ways to deal with the problem to eliminate the influence by a mean, nasty dead guy.

So, Patrick, maybe we could start with what you mean by "possession" and "demon?"

Bruce

bwstaircase89 wrote on Dec 4^th, 2007 at 5:44pm:


First I would say, without consent none of this can happen, but giving consent can be tricky.

So, can a dead person take over another person's body?  Well, in my view that is the same as asking, "Can a con artist get you to concent to do something you do not want to do?"  The answer to that question, as with the answer to the first one, is "yes" and "no." 

If a con artist walked up to you and ask you to hand over your car keys and to sign the title to your car over to her, and to hand over the signed title also, would you do it?  I am betting your answer would be, "probably not."  You would probably not let someone else take over control of your car just because they ask you to give them that control.  You would not give them your consent.

Now, let's say you were a more gullible, less informed, person who did not know that some people are con artists.  Let's also say that you believe all people living on this earth are good people who would never steal from you.  Given a long enough period of time, and a string of clever, step-by-step con artist stories, the con artist now has a higher probability of tricking you into consenting to handing over the signed title and keys to your car.  But, if at any point you become aware that you are being conned you can put a stop to the whole process merely by refusing to listen to another word for con artists says.  I would also say there are some circumstances in which some small number of gullible, less informed individuals might be conned consenting into giving over control of their car.

This example is surprisingly similar to the situation in which a dead person might gain control of a physically living persons body.  The dead con artist must first find a way to communicate with a gullible, less informed person.  The vast majority of physically living people are "protected" from such a dead con artist by virtue of the fact that they cannot hear, see, or in any other way be consciously aware of communication from the dead con artist.  So the number of likely candidates is reduced to the relatively small number of physically living people who are in some way "sensitive" to such direct communication.

Now if I were such a dead con artist I would look candidates with a few more specific characteristics.  I would be looking for someone who can hear my nonphysical voice, who can be easily duped.  I would also be looking for someone whose religious or spiritual beliefs have taught them that I am not just a mean and nasty dead person.  Rather, I would be looking for someone who believes in demons.  Specifically, someone who believes that demons of the minions of some all-powerful, negative spiritual being, for example Satan.  Ideally this person would believe that they are powerless to resist whatever I, as a minion of Satan, attempt to do.  It would then be a relatively simple matter to use such beliefs against this physically living person to their own detriment.

I would be free to threaten such a person with a grievous bodily harm to themselves, their friends, or loved ones.  Metaphorically, I could tell such a person that if they will just tell me where they keep the title to their car, I won't set fire to their children.  Seems like a small thing to do to avoid such a terrible fate for their children, so they give their consent by doing it.  I continue my con, taking small steps to gain stronger and stronger control over their activity, threatening hellfire and damnation, or what ever other beliefs they hold I can use against them, as leverage to get them to consent by doing.  The person begins to fall into a pattern of giving their consent by doing what ever I tell them to do.  Eventually, I will be able to get them to consent to  thisdo pretty much anything I want them to do.

So, can a dead person take over another persons body?  Yes and no depending upon who the person has, their level of awareness to nonphysical communication, their gullibility and their beliefs. 

If the dead person could take over another persons body, why in the world would they want to do such a thing in the first place?  The answer to this question can lead us to understanding the situation and how to resolve it.

In every case I have dealt with that you might call "possession" the mean, nasty, dead guy is always just some poor schmo who has died, and is confused, terrified, and doesn't know what else to do.  Often, the dead guy believes that if they could just get back into a physical body the crazy dream they are in would end.  And in the vast majority of cases all that is required to resolve the situation is a simple retrieval of a mean, nasty, dead guy.  The rest of the cases are also resolved through retrieval, it's just that the retrievals can get a little tricky and should not be attempted by amateurs.

Bruce

So that is why people who believe in demons are prone to be possessed? Ah, it is beginning to make sense!

And you retrieved the "bad" dead person and sent them to Focus 27?

Don,

A series of very interesting questions; however, I think that you actually provided the best answer for you own question within he first question you asked. "Do you even believe...." Expectation is mistress to belief.

I can give you my experience. First, as R. Bruce attests, his belief system -- the pattern of how he uses his abilities and such -- assumes demonic posession and such and thus he works with that system. My experiences match Bruce Moen's. A person's will is the strongest aid that have to any experience, and it can be compromised by the expectation and thus the creation of negative experience, wittingly or unwittingly.

Have you breathed the fresh air outside the New Age Ghetto and actually read a standard book on possession like Malachi Martin's book, "Hostage to the Devil" or psychiatrist Scott Peck's books on possession? I have read both, and was not impressed. (I actually read them twice to give them a chance, since I was under the impression that I was suppose to cringe or become fearful. It didn't work, either the first time or the second time). I found them to be quite humorous in what they were actually attempting to do. (Also, having a little bit more knowledge on both after the fact, I can say that the answers that are provided in the books may astound you until you actually discern for yourself the actuality of what happened when the tale was told later, and less sensationally. I will leave it at that.) By the way -- New Age Ghetto? I read that and thought of the "turtle" before you even asked the question. You are so quick to tell people they need to breathe fresh, but it seems that you are taking offense to a "fresh" perspective yourself.

Also, it is you who assume that other people's experiences are limited. Perhaps it is your experience that is limited? Here again, I can only ascertain that you are using some standard gauge that you have found helpful in your life and you judge everyone else to be, as you seem to imply, stupid if they don't have that same view. You demean and belittle them by phrasing everything with the confines of "new age ghetto". For those like me, it doesn't work.

What about you? I don't find the reports here generalized. You seem to be an avid reader, but you contribute little experience? This forum is full of people who report events as they experience them and then either followed up on them here or through whatever material they drew to them to answer it. I sincerely feel though that you will want to have a more competitve answer, but it must come from someone else who is drawn to that sort of drama.


E.

One has to answer the question "in what way does classifying entities as demonic as opposed to deceased human beings assist us in dealing with them, and understanding the divine?"  For those with a background in demonology, I suppose there would be an idea that there is true evil in the world and that these discarnate entities must be thought of in a different way than people, because they never were people, and they have their own agenda.

Belief in these entities does seem to play a role in inviting their entry into one's earthly life - but then again, belief deep down in our core creates much of what we see manifest in physical reality.  When Don asks how a child could have invited a discarnate human in - I say it would be relatively easy - seemingly harmless games with ouija boards capitalize on the child's innocence to engage in the physical control (moving the hand on a ouija board), which then may make the invitation.

I am not sure the purpose of classifying demons as different nonphysical entities. I don't doubt that nonhuman nonphysical entitities exist; Monroe and Moen have talked of "the gathering," and other encounters with nonhuman discarncates, as have others.  We are all unique souls, and manifestations of the divine (albeit incarnate now).  Why should I lend power to the notion of evil and demons, when they are by definition a different type of consciousness.  A soul engages in the demonic when it moves away from God.  Anger, hatred, cruelty, whether engaged in by human or nonhuman consciousness all move the individual soul away from the divine.

I know that it upsets Don to think that many on this board ("New Agers") don't believe in a biblical accounting of evil and demonology.  It galls you, Don, to think that there are those on this board who believe that love directed at demons can solve the problems associated with these encounters - because it sounds like a "feel good," nonthinking solution to what is a more complicated problem.  I would guess that you prefer describing a demon as an unfathomable expression of evil, not a discarnate human lost or gone astray.  As such, for you and those who believe in demons and demonology, there is no hope of sending the so-called "demon," back to God.  Because for those who believe in demons as being intrinsically pure evil there is an absolute aspect to it.

I like what Eternal Essence says.  Many, like Bruce and Dave here on this board have some real-earth experience with these entities.  Malachi Martin may have written a compelling book, but are his experiences in any way more compelling than the direct experiences of those on this board?  Could not Martin and other priest's background in their religion have affected the outcome of these encounters?  Also, Martin's writings must be taken in context with the criticism levied against him in the book Clerical Error: A True Story, by Robert Blair Kaiser, in which a fellow Jesuit documented how Martin seduced his wife, broke his marriage, falsified stories and information, and acted in a manner that many would describe as "wicked."  The reference is:  http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/030802/030802i.htm
Kaiser was a journalist and by all accounts had always been honest and straightforward in his reporting.


I can not pretend to have answers myself on all this.  I believe in many possibilities, and as such I personally believe in the existence of discarnate entities who are and always have been non-human.  However, I see no point in indulging myself in tales of possession, superhuman strength mind reading and telekinesis.   All of that is possible and could have happened, yet standing here in awe of the demonic - separating the demonic out as something to be feared and respected holds no particular interest for me.  It merely supports the demonic by the very awe and belief in it.


Matthew

  Well said Matthew, especially the last part.   Ultimately, there is nothing to be feared.  Sure the physical body can be harmed, and even one's psyche messed up a bit, but not the real, eternal part of us.   As for the latter part, why fear 'demons" when plenty of incarnate humans could do the temporal harms that i outlined. 

  Don, isn't a big part of Christ's crucifixion and Resurrection a message to the world and to us that a child of the Creator cannot be truly harmed by anything outside of itself?   While we individually may not function from the full reality like he did, isn't the way to get there primarily about overcoming fear by concentrating on love and faith in the ultimate goodness and growth of life, no matter what happens to you?    I think its a big part of how he himself got to the pure divine awareness and livingness that he got to.

  Sure, Christ dealt with possessions in his public life, but did he tell anyone to be fearful of these?    Plus i can't help but to notice that for him, it wasn't all that hard dealing with these cases unlike some epic, dramatic battle between a few Priests and a possessing influence.  Perhaps that does have something to do with both the beliefs and the ways the priests lived, and doesn't reflect directly on the awesome power of these beings?

  Also, if one considers the possibility of 'karma' and of past lives, then it opens up possibilities for a child with no conscious preconceptions of a negative nonphysical consciousness could become involved with such conditions and circumstances.    And it could be either their innate Light, or perhaps some unconscious darkness which attracts this.

The book actually looks interesting, Darth, but it's going to just irritate the hell out of everyone if you keep posting those comments about Bruce Moen. You should just let it go and hang out for a while if you like. There are plenty of interesting things to read about here as well.

love, blink

Darth Benedict wrote on Dec 5^th, 2007 at 2:04am:

you are out of line. I'm requesting this post be removed. writing books for the most part yields little financial gain, unless the author produces sensationalism with its attendant entertainment value. get a life Darth.
btw, you can't even spell.