DUH!  I figured the search out and found Ginny's posts. 

I don't evcen want to say what I was doing wrong...I feel so stoopid. hehe!

You are right of course.  She is wonderful.  Like reading a good book!

A Page Turner.  Err...Wheel Mouse roller I mean...hehe!

(3a) The True Heavens: Conditions for Admittance and for Soul Retrieval

Because of the complex issues involved, I will address this topic in a plurality of posts.  It is widely and rightly assumed that the afterlife is governed by some form of the principle that like attracts like.  This principle is problematic because of character complexities.  We are morally and spiritually similar and dissimilar in a variety of ways.   Take the Thief’s Hell allegedly visited by Bruce Moen.  Thieves can of course be reassessed under the umbrella of a variety of other vices and obsessions—e. g. sociopaths, narcissists, drug addicts, and those who are merely acting out their anger over an abused childhood.  Presumably their patterns of vices and virtues affect the kind and level of the hellish planes to which they are attracted.  One wonders about the extent to which their unique hobbies and passions (e. g. gambling; sports; sexual obsessions) also play a significant role in their astral locale.  

In this respect, Jesus’ refinement of the like attracts like principle seems instructive.  For Jesus, what is decisive is the lens through which I view others as a means to serve my desired ends.  The ways in which I am critical of attitudes and conduct will influence the ways in which others will be critical of my attitudes and conduct in my postmortem plane.  If I chronically view others as an unwilling source of possessions I covet, then my co-residents in my hellish plane will view me the same way.  Thus, their attitudes and behavior will function as an educative mirror in which I can glimpse my core desires and spirituality and experience the kind of world that would result from a generalization of my flawed spirituality to others around me.  As Jesus puts it, “The judgments you give are the judgments you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you (Matthew 7:1-2—The New Jerusalem Bible).”  In combination with one or more past life reviews, these Hells can thus serve as excellent schools that sow precious spiritual seeds for eventual efforts at soul retrieval.

In the same way, the power of the Gospel to “save” is not a function of Christian doctrines unless these doctrines become tools for spiritual transformation into a grace-based consciousness.  To be a Christian, I must not serve others out of a sense of duty, which treats them as a burden and allows me to collect applause in my mind for putting up with them. Rather, I must serve them out of a sense of privilege in which I revel in chances to make my gratitude real to God for accepting me just the way I am by His grace.  This attitude can create a truly blissful heaven in which I put the best interests of my heavenly neighbors above my own and vice versa and, paradoxically, I advance my best interests in the process.  

On such issues, the warning of Jesus’ brother is instructive:
“So whatever you speak, or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law of love, the law that set you free.  For there will be no mercy if you have not been merciful to others.  But if you have been merciful, God’s mercy toward you will win out over His judgment against you…What’s the use of saying you have faith if you don’t prove it by your actions?  That kind of faith can’t save anyone…But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”  Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.  You believe that there is one God.  Good for you!  Even the demons believe that and shudder (James 1:12-14, 18-19)!"

Don

Hi Don,

Yes, I agree that the "faith alone," doctrine does not hold water if it is not coupled with action/deeds.  I've also had a problem over the years belieiving in a sinner's redemption at the end of his/her earthly life by  merely reciting a prayer or professing faith, but not having acted a certain way.

I think Justin put it best in another thread when he raised Swedenborg's theory of the outer/inner nature on man, regarding the afterlife.  For those of you who don't know, Swedenborg believed that after death, we are at first centered in our outer nature/thoughts which consists of a hybrid of our earthly memories and the mask we wear in society of dos and don'ts.  But that after a time of reflection, all souls inevitably migrate according to their inner nature.  Kindness, sadism, love of God or distance from him all come out.  At this "inner" stage of reflection, the notion of like attracts like is in full play.  It is hard to imagine any of us post-mortem willingly casting ourselves into a hellish realm, yet for those whose inner nature it is to steal from others, lie,cheat, hurt, maim - they truly prefer to be with others of their kind, and so you find these realms.

It is the spiritual progress of this "inner nature," that we are all honing (I believe) in the earth school.  Our outer nature - the mask we wear here on earth - we change moment to moment as it suits us, but it is not our true deeply rooted inclination.  By living life incarnate, as we progress toward love, as we learn the lessons of the golden rule or Karma (if we do), we hopefully will truly feel that acting lovingly is the only way to be.

It is this spontaneous action or deed that every soul searches for.  Yes, it is probably better to act lovingly because you are supposed to according to law and custom (being good for goodness sake as the childhood song goes).  But we are all sometimes in situations where we do not feel lovingly toward another.  Where we may judge another harshly, perhaps wrongly, and use prejudice/hatred in our thoughts.  This, is part of being human.  So, we strive toward love and understanding, and perfect our spirits in the fires of this earthly existence as best we can.

Rock on, Donald

Matthew

Hi Don-

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the following:

"In combination with one or more past life reviews, these Hells can thus serve as excellent schools that sow precious spiritual seeds for eventual efforts at soul retrieval."

By the plural form of past life reviews, are you suggesting that we live more than one life on earth?  And for whom do these hells serve as schools, those who are in them or those who are doing retrievals?  I don't know, I've read and re-read that sentence to no avail.

Anyway, you say in a different way the same thing I have been saying.  We can spend many hours each day posting messages or we can exchange even a small portion of those hours for the purpose of helping others. 

We can read every new age book that's ever published and become an expert in the field, or we can toss the books and just devote a chunk of our lives doing things far more worthwhile.

I was really struck by a guest on Glenn Beck's tv show last night, Jon Huntsman Sr.  He has devoted his life, and his life's savings, to help people struck by cancer.  Rarely have I seen someone as selfless as Huntsman.  From poverty to a billionaire who offered to sell everything he had to fulfill charitable obligations, his life is a testimony to incredible faith and how it can affect a person.

I know you are a pastor and by definition, you have dismissed the material things in life in order to help others.  I too hope to do more meaningful things in my own life. 

And yeah, Rock On!

R

Dear ALL

Just to add something from my research. I hope it is of interest


According to Frederick Myers, stage one is the earth dimension. As soon as the earth experience has been thoroughly comprehended – either through reincarnation or through the exchange of experiences with others in other dimensions – the soul may proceed to dimensions beyond the reach of the material dimension.


Stage two is called the Intermediate Realm or Hades. This is the spiritual condition, which is referred to in the ancient religious traditions as "hell." This is the realm where all must go upon experiencing the earth realm. Here, memories of our entire past lives flash before us. Whether or not this experience is "hellish" depends upon the memory of the particular person. If it contains sinister episodes and terrifying experiences, these will drift by the person's vision along with the more joyful happenings.

This did not happen with me... For some reason I was only shown the blessing of my life... believe me when I tell you that I was no saint...


Some persons begin at this stage to feel what is called "the earth pull, the birth pull" and the person may decide to return to stage one, the earth realm. For others, stage two is brief and is followed by entry into a more stable world, which is stage three, the Realm of illusion.

RudI call this the judgment... we decide to turn from the side of perfect love and fall into a body again or stay... I knew that if I looked up into the face of perfect love that I would never return to a body that dies again...

The Realm of Illusion is a dimension where things may be created with the mind and shaped by the direct action of the imagination. Though a person may linger in this stage for undeterminable period of time, an eventual decision must be made. The soul returns either to earth or to progresses to stage four. Before leaving, however, the more enterprising souls may have an opportunity to experience one of the great wonders of this dimension of consciousness – a tour through some section of "The Great Memory." Just as on earth, one may go to a library and see newsreels of important earth events of history, so, in stage three, one may witness any event that occurred from the beginning of human experience.



The Cosmic Memory has recorded everything that has ever happened.



Stage four is the Realm of Color. This dimension is an indescribably lovely existence. Here one must leave behind all rigid intellectual structures and dogmas, be they scientific, religious, or philosophical. An infinite variety of new sounds, colors and feelings are experienced here and souls find a much wider freedom to function with highly energized intellect and spirit. If, in this dimension, the soul becomes free from the earth pull, it is qualified to experience cosmic ranges beyond earth's confines, such as the next dimension.

I imagine this is the place where souls have clothing and look like people or angels and such... I only saw orbs of light...

Stage five is the Realm of Flame. In this dimension, the soul acquires a body of flame, enabling it to tour the stellar universe without being harmed by its temperatures and turbulence and to return with a fuller experience of these cosmic reaches.

This is the white orb we put on our bodies

Stage six is the Realm of Light. Souls in this dimension are matured spirits, having lived through, with conscious comprehension, all the aspects of the created universe. They are capable of living now without form, of existing as white light in the pure thought of the Creator. They have joined the immortals, thus fulfilling their final purpose of the evolution of consciousness.

Yes this is color so strong that it becomes blistering white...

Stage seven is the Realm of Timelessness. In this dimension, souls enter full partnership with God. This dimension is of an advanced spiritual nature, so close to the ultimate essence of creativity that no adequate vocabulary has yet been evolved to describe it, and hence it is difficult to communicate to earth-level beings.

This is where I would long to Return...

I think  Frederick Myers is very close to the reality

Love

Alan

Chen-Kuang,

In the Old Testament era, Jews notice that dementia and brain damage can inhibit optimal functioning of the mind.  So they believe that body and soul are inseparable and that people cannot survive death without the resurrection of their transformed physical body.  This view encourages the doctrine of "soul sleep," whereby we must await until the end of human history before our bodies can be resurrected and the Last Judgment can occur.  Jesus embraced a new Jewish belief that the human spirit can survive death, fully conscious without the support of a physical body.  Thus, Jesus promises: "Whoever lives and believes in me will never die (John 11:25).  From the cross, Jesus comforts the dying thief on a nearby cross: "Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:42-43)."  "Paradise" is located in the 3rd heaven and means "park."  As the preferred initial location of the righteous dead it is apparently the equivalent of Focus 27 in the Moen-Monroe scheme of afterlife territories.  

Prior to his conversion, St. Paul embraced the traditional Jewish view that body and soul are inseparable, and so believed in our bodily resurrection at the end of the age. This view is still reflected in his earliest epistles (e. g. Thessalonians 4:15-17).  But as Paul receives fresh revelation, he comes to share Jesus' view that we survive fully conscious at death.  And so, in Paul's later epistles, he views death as the occasion of his immediate reunion with Christ:  

"I am torn between the two options: I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body (Philippians 1:23-24)."
"We would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).

In his later phase, Paul embraces the possibility of OBEs, though he is not sure whether his own astral visit to Paradise was achieved through an OBE or another method that Robert Monroe would call "phasing" (see 2 Corinthians 12:1-8).  

The view that discarnate humans survive fully conscious at death seems to make obsolete the older Jewish view that the Last Judgment must be postponed until the end of the age.  It seems better to think of the Last Judgment in terms of the Past Life Review that is so frequently experienced in NDEs.  

Don

P.S. The saying you asked about can be found in John 9:4-5: "As long as it is day, we must do the work of Him who sent me.  Night is coming when no one can work.  While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."  Jesus uses the term "day" here as a metaphor for His ministry as a lightworker.  "Night" is a metaphor for the temporary "dark" period immediately after His daath and prior to His resurrection--a period during which His disciples are paralyzed with fear and disillusionment.

I am now ready to continue this admittedly disjointed thread.  Readers can follow the development of my case by reading replies 4, 6, 10, 18, 33, 38, 41.  I thought readers might be interested in an article reprinted below that I just wrote for the local newspaper.  I have posted both NDEs before, but newbies might not have read my earlier posts.  The NDE of Albert Baldeo's Dad is uniquely powerful evidence for the reality of NDEs.  Phyllis's 2 NDEs pick up theme in reply #18 on "The Concept of Progress in Heaven."  Clearly, Phyllis's problematic relationship with her deceased Mom is inhibiting the Mom's progress in Paradise:

"Are you interested in forming a group to discuss the relevance of modern paranormal experiences to biblical teaching?  Let me know. This article describes two of the many astonishing NDEs that Christians have shared with me.

Albert is probably the most respected retired pastor in Kelowna, BC.  A few years ago, he rushed to his Dad’s deathbed in a local nursing home.  Just before dying, his Dad sat up, gazed intently in the distance, and shouted, “Hurry up, brother, hurry up!”   Unknown to Albert, his Dad’s brother lay dying simultaneously in another nursing home 10 miles away.  Just before dying, this brother became entranced and urgently exclaimed, “Wait for me, brother!  Wait for me.”  Family witnesses on both scenes later verified that both brothers died at the same time!  As they detached from their bodies, they were apparently still able to use their vocal cords to speak to each other in the spirit realm.  

Phyllis is a physician specializing in medical research.  Injuries from a near-fatal auto accident triggered an NDE.  She found herself in Paradise in a “mall that wasn’t really a mall; it was a mall of white light.”  An orchestra serenaded her with unearthly music as she was escorted to several tables for an encounter with her late mother.  It was not a pleasant encounter.  Her Mom chided her for detaching from her emotions and refusing to come to terms with her death: “Your reluctance to grieve is holding back my progress here!”  A sulking Phyllis stoically returned to her body and eventually recovered from her injuries.

A year later, Phyllis was back in the hospital for surgery for a life-threatening illness.  Her deteriorating condition plunged her into a second NDE.  She was transported to the same “mall of white light,” entertained by orchestral music, and brought to her now familiar seat at the table opposite her mother.  “Why won’t you listen to me?  You still refuse to grieve.  Don’t you care about my progress over here?”  Her Mom then pointed down to the table: “You have to make this table vanish.”  This curious remark treated the table as a thought form symbolizing an unhealthy connection between mother and daughter.  

Phyllis offered no excuses and meekly tried to escape: “I think I’ll go back to my body now.”  Her Mom snapped, “No, you’re not ready to go back yet.  You need to go with these two gentlemen.”  Two white-robed men (angels?) escorted her to “an elevator that wasn’t really an elevator; it was an elevator of white light.”  She was taken to some sort of spirit hospital in Paradise and experienced a procedure that she tried in vain to understand.  She was then returned to her hospital bed on earth.  Phyllis had been completely cured and no longer needed her surgery!"

Don