I like Don's remarks. There seem to be as many levels of the heavens as there are people to define them - and these are, as Tgecks  noted, raw data. If we simple condense all these ideas we seem to have a subjectively good direction and a subjectively less good direction, and various ways of differentiating them. My suggestions are no better than anyone else's, but happen to be useful to me because of the type of work I do.

The notion of a "place of all knowledge" or as Cayce put it, "akashic records" or "House of Knowledge" or "Library" etc, seem to me to be simple constructs. We can create such places because we are, ultimately, manifestations of the Creator. That does not presume these creations to be "real" - nor does it mean that they are "unreal". Like the numerous ways of dividing the heavens, these are constructs that are useful in specific individual cases.

Another example is the person who says, "I have a spirit guide." Personally, I have no foggy notion of what this actually might entail, so I accept what I am told. The concept of there being a Cosmic Rule Book to which all guiding spirits adhere strikes me as ludicrous. However, that a great many individuals have "spirit guides" of whatever sort is a self-proclaimed fact which we must accept with the same degree of confidence as when we are told, "I'm hungry," or perhaps, "I meditate, and when I do I see things that are beyond the everyday world."

Along the same lines, I feel that the individual is fully self-defined, both in this world and in the next, and that the miracle of life in the everyday world is that we have agreed to live in a world in which we have so much in common. If we follow this notion backwards we eventually arrive at the initial creative Godhead from which all phenomena emerge, which is the only place at which it all is forced to come into collective agreeement. Thus, in some manner we might, in principle, be able to go to a person, take their ideas as stated, move backwards to God, and by realizing ourselves as God in God's totality, then return to our own perspective as individuals with a proper translation of the other persons true thoughts, feelinmgs and ideas. The principle works fine but the practice is unlikely in the extreme - at least from my viewpoint here and now.

That doesn't mean that we are unable to discuss these things usefully. If we were to assemble everybody's thoughts on the levels of heaven we would get a pretty good idea of the way things look in general. And, since we are all manifestations of God, those projections would be to that degree valid. This suggests that the levels of heaven are a statistical phenomenon, much like the levels of ionization of atoms in the clouds of hydrogen etc in space - and thus we get what looks more like a problem in quantum mechanics than a fixed structure with houses, lamp posts, and endless stairways with angels running up and down them.

Perhaps the issue can be reduced to the question of goals and purposes - why do we care? What do we need this information for? What do we desire to accomplish through it? - And that too, is a question with a statistical distribution of answers. 

dave

(2) THE CONCEPT OF PROGRESS IN THE HEAVENS

In the Judaeo-Christian tradition, an unstated assumption has proven detrimental to an open-minded spiritual quest: the assumption that when believers, die, they immediately achieve spiritual perfection, regardless of their level of growth during earth life.  This assumption generates a blind spot to the widespread biblical teaching that God wants to save everyone and will continue to pursue this purpose after our physical demise.  If our final spiritual level is established in this earth life, then a definitive and final postmortem fate seems inevitable.  This presumed finality is often justified by Hebrews 9:27: "It is appointed unto people once to die and after that the judgment."  Consequently, the question of whether one's spiritual level can be altered after "the judgment" (past life review?) is seldom asked in most conservative Christian circles.  The failure to ask this question is reinforced by the mistaken view that the biblical Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") mean "eternal" just as they are normally translated.   In fact, "olam" means "for a long time" and "aionios" means "age-long" or "for an indefinite period."  This insight should open minds to neglected biblical texts that imply release from Hell, proxy baptism for the unrighteous dead, eternally open gates in Heaven, and hymnic visions of denizens of Hell praising God in Heaven.  I will elaborate on these biblical themes in future posts.

To refute the notion of instant postmortem spiritual perfection, just consider John's poetic visionary image of our light bodies in heaven: "The fine linen (= outward appearance of white light) is the righeous deeds of saints (Revelation 19:8)."  This image implies that the quality and intensity of our radiance is determined by the quality of our earthly spirituality.   Conversely, the spiritual bodies of some believers are envisaged as "soiled garments (3:4)." To me, this imagery implies (1) an initial postmortem spiritual condition equivalent to that achieved during earth life and (2) heavenly capabiilties and life conditions that vary dramatically, depending on one's learning curve both during earth life and during one's progress through the heavens.  In my view, this differential heavenly status is already implicit in Jesus' teaching: "With the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you dish out will be dished out to you (Matthew 7:2)."  Jesus assertion might also be translated, "The standards you apply to others will be applied to you."   The application of these principles to me will be a learning tool, a mirror of the nature of my core desires and foibles.  When I am no longer content with what I see in this "mirror," I have the option of working to change my energetic make-up and thereby progress to "higher" planes, perhaps with the assistance of "retrievers."  Progress through mutiple heavens already implies that, at the moment of my death, I am basically the same guy with the same level of spiritual development that I achieved during earth life.  That does not necessarily mean that my mind is not different in significant ways.  There is, for example,  the difficult question of whether and when I will be temporarily cut off from my earth memories for my own good at certain stages.  But in terms of level of growth, I will initially be essentially the same guy.

The heavens are realms in which thoughts can no longer be hidden (Luke 12:2) and communication is telepathic.  Imagine a community of loving spirits who are passionately devoted to each other's bliss and progress and consider it a privilege, not a duty, to serve each other.  This is the essence of a grace-based life.  Then imagine that this community is sprinkled with selfish church gossips bent on promoting their own interests.  These souls give only mental assent to a grace-based Christian belief system.  Common sense teaches that, in a realm where no thoughts can be hidden, such a gossip would neither feel comfortable  nor be wanted in such an altruistic community. Of course, the unselfish saints in such a community would seek out such Christian gossips during retrievals in an effort to help them change their energetic make-up, so that they might fit into their blissful community. 

Don

A NOTE TO BETSON:
Neither postmortem "sex piles" nor "soul shredding"  need have a redemptive or otherwise positive purpose.  I doubt that such dreadful practices occur in the heavens.  I was merely pointing out that there is independent verification of such practices in afterlife territories.  "Soul statues" in swampy astral environments may or may not occur in a heavenly plane.  The boundaries between the "lower" heavens and the "higher" hells may reflect a continum rather than a dramatic shift in consciousness.  "Hell" means a condition of separation from God, but this condition may be subtly incremental and specific to the potential for certail levels of contact with the divine.  

I should think it is very useful Ultra so thanks. I would like to point out how so much information is available to us in this day and age through the use of the internet, right at our fingertips. Perhaps the only thing missing is the disapline to explore all that is there, due to the physical body reguires movement away from the puter (speaking personally of course) every now and then or the hinges rust. 

Cyberspace is creating a speed up in human/spiritual evolvement. we no longer milk cows, we milk the internet.

love, alysia

I agree with Dave from some similar experiences that there are indeed many similarities between life here and life there, even down to being able simulate the ingestion of food, although it may just be a social environment which is being simulated, the food seems real according to our ability to create that.
In my imagination I see myself mingling all over the heavens, a sort of gypsy, but I have heard we do carry on life to life with that a certain number of souls. my group seemed much smaller this time of family. I just can count 8 family members I'm sure I've been with before. Possiblity theres many more haven't met consciously.

We all, most of us have done things we can't be proud of. like some things that have been mentioned here. the first time I came across this idea of the way they can often perceive death on the other side, is listening to Alan Watts tell a story  of two soldiers who were so busy dueling with their swords, they didn't have time to stop and die.

Alan Watts is a philosopher and has no religion to muddy up the view. both of these soldiers ran the swords through each other at the same time. as they floated above their bodies they continued sparring!    they continued sticking each other with the astral counterparts of the swords...noticing by and by, neither one of them had fallen from such blows  at this point Watts begins to laugh at the picture as he tells the story..the fighting passionate men glanced to the ground at the fleshly bodies, looked at each other and began laughing their heads off for they had killed each other and exited the body without further ado and such was the fever hadn't noticed it was over, for the bodies over there do not fall. 

It seems spirit, individually will take their own personal view of their transitions, either quite calmly, or any other way which seems fitting to them. I can assume in this case there was no bad guy or good guy to take sides on, going into battle was the chosen experience to attain and classroom over now..next? I mean next experience for them. I'm sure there was some sort of learning going on but it seems we do enact drama as a death scene here and make our exits in some cases quite efficiently and easily.

Hi Ol' Dood-
Let's pause a moment to acknowledge Bruce Moen, from whom this forum has come. I too have found it to be a remarkable intellectual and spiritual environment.

As for PUL - that's what got this forum going. It's also the way that you regard your own self, and by extension, the way that God regards all parts of the universe emanated from Event One, after which we all turn out to be manifestations of Godhead. And in psychology, after Carl Rogers shocked the world by suggesting that we have PUL for our clients (sex with a psych client is a felony in California) the psych world settled on the term "unconditional regard", but the idea is still there.

dave

Hi Dood, you were'nt here when Ginny was here, a seasoned traveler to other life forms with details, details, details.  I don't know if theres any archives with Ginny's stuff there, u might try exploring the retrieval archives also. I'm sure she's over there.

once in awhile someone will post here about an encounter of the 3rd kind, but it's usually much briefer than Ginny's. I wish she was back.

I have heard humanity will soon have a huge encounter with aliens, but still holding my breath on it. btw, Bruce has a story of meeting some, they didn't know what PUL was!

so he showed them!  when I find the right book and chapter I'll send it to you, its very interesting.

Well, I tried a search for Ginny and all it showed me was your post Alysia in this thread (DOH!)

Unless I am doing something wrong.  Forum Searches and ME never got along to well...hehe!

Would have really enjoyed reading her posts...