Hello everyone,

I have been going to this site for a while but have just recently signed up.

I was a Fundamentalist Christian before having what I guess could be descirbed as a belief system crash. Back then I was reading the Bible every day for hours, yet I was miserable. I was so interested in Jesus and the Bible and now I have no interest at all. I don't consider myself a Christian anymore, just a seeker of Truth. I suffered from depression and chronic anxiety/panic attacks when I was a "Christian" because I forced myself to believe in the Calvinist theology that if you are not one of the elect you are destined for hell. So I basically was living in constant doubt and terror that I was not one of the chosen ones. But, now after realizing that all of this can't be true I feel so worthless. I feel that I am abandoning Jesus because I am not interested in Him anymore. But I can't help what I am feeling! I just have no interest in Jesus or Christianity anymore. I can't explain why.

I sometimes wonder if God really does love unconditionally.
Has anyone experienced this?

Patrick

Hi Patrick. I can't really advise but a view from personal experience is that the heavy intense vibe that surrounds the more fundamentalist takes on spirituality can only lead to this sort of thing - or at least to unhappiness.

Put simply mental intensity blocks our ability to receive Grace, to access our higher or true mind. Buddhism and other traditions strongly emphasise openness, spaciousness, letting go and a lightness of touch for this reason.

I suffered for many years with a highly intense mind. (which was actually focused on getting ahead, but the result is the same) Meditation and some reading leading to lightening of my outlook (try Pema Chodron on Amazon - she's a Buddhist nun with lots of books out on these issues; or Chogym Trungpa Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior) transformed my situation. This through years of illness too.

When we get uptight our life experience gets difficult and we become unable to feel the joy that is our natural state. It gets hard to put down the shovel and stop digging - our instinct is to turn the screw down even tighter in a mistaken attempt to control what bugs us when we actually need to start letting go.

The meditation helps a lot, it creates and widens the space needed to get us started. It's a good idea to join a group if you are thinking of going down this road as the company makes it a lot easier to get some stability into a practice, and reduces the risk of getting the method wrong. A few weeks shows very noticeable changes in how we feel, or at least did in my case.

Here's hoping it starts to improve soon for you. Don't worry - a bad day can feel pretty awful, but the sun is always there behind the clouds.....

Patrick,

It is very common for Fundamentalists to get disillusioned and then throw out the baby with the bath water.  Has it ever occurred to you that God sparked your experience of the Dark Night of the Soul to prepare you for a healthier, more fulfilling, and more accurate grasp of your faith?  Fro example, what if you could be convinced that, contrary to your church's donctrine, the Bible does not teach predestination to eternal damnation?  What if you could be convinced that, according to Scripture, God never permanently abandons anyone after death?  What if you could be convinced that the hellbound are there because they choose to be there on the basis of  the principle that like attracts like?  Have you considered the possibility that you need to replace a toxic brand of Christianity with another approach which is more persoanlly empowering and more conducive to life-changing EXPERIENCES of God's presence and grace?  In a few days, I will start a thread that will address some of these questions.

Don

Hi Patrick,

Yes, I have been disillusioned in the past. Many years ago. I believed that the Bible, the New Testament in particular, which I read for comfort at the time, was encouraging me to remain in an abusive relationship. I felt that it was telling me to hold on in a situation which, in reality, was life-threatening and good for nobody.

Yes, the negative experiences I had at the time carried over into my "bible experience" and therefore, by association, I became somewhat repulsed, no, that is too strong a word....let me just say, continuing those studies did not feel right to me anymore at the time. I found many other sources of inspiration which were truly helpful to me over the years, so all was not lost.

You have received excellent comments here. I just want you to know you are not alone. I too, wondered if I would "make the grade" when I reached the other side. But that is really just fear talking....and fear is not love. If the priority is love, fearing God makes no sense to me. And fearing oneself is no better.

I don't worry about whether I'll "make the grade" anymore. We don't have to "prove" we love Jesus enough. Ever. This is a much more benevolent universe than that, and the possibilities for transformation are truly everywhere we look.

Just remember, love feels good, is good, and has good results.  And I don't say this lightly. You'll be able to return to those teachings anytime you need them, but exploring other teachings will help you to see what they have in common, what is really the truth.

Now, I am exceptionally grateful for for having been exposed to the teachings of Christ. It is not an issue for me anymore. But I will not say it has been easy when I have occasionally had to try to "defend" my own point of view. Therefore, I don't try to do that anymore in most situations in my everyday life...at least, that is the direction I am moving toward. I'd rather just listen. There is always something to learn, in listening to anyone.

love, blink

When a belief system breaks down, usually it leaves a hole. Of course. Before, you were inside a system. You had a role, a position, an outlook, duties. But eventually, one discovers inconsistencies which make the belief system fall apart. And/or it is fear driven, and has so many and hard claims that one falls simply off that system because it's unbearable anymore.

In the first time, the relief of having let go the pressure of such a belief system might be covered by the feeling of emptiness, due to the remaining hole. Instead of pressure, now everything seems pointless. So, there had to be some reconstruction- but not with the overcome system, but with something you feel attracted to. This is of course difficult in a depressed state. The easiest maybe would be, if you could find an activity you really liked to do in your past, which wasn't connected to the worn out belief system. Maybe something you stopped doing because that belief sytem had left you not time for doing so. If you can find something like that, you might keep it up again. Besides the effect of hopefully having found again something which brings meaning in your life, it would as well serve as something to reintegrate the events of your life, seeing a line in your life again, grounding you.
(Bruce told about something similar in his recent book)

If there is the need for answers to questions about the "big picture", you can read around here. A standard is, to become inspired by some reading is ok, but finally everyone has to find out for oneself, maybe through some methods like meditation or so. If you still think a lot of Jesus, there is a good chance to rediscover him- probably in a totally new, more joyful way.

Spooky

i had a major crash when i realized the bible was basically a book of fairy tales.  it was very depressing.  i didn't know whether God was real or not or anything.  i also suffered while i DID believe because i thought i was an evil sinner.  understandably, i'm less than thrilled about Christianity, or any religion at all.  i've gotta go with john lennon, dreaming of a world without religion...

8.Arguments Against Calvinism

Logical Arguments

1.      Argument by Analogy – Arbitrary, Not Loving
a.      If I was parent of 6 children, and loved 3 – showered them with love, and didn’t love the other three, and the other three grew up to spend their lives inflicting suffering on others and themselves, my actions would be not loving.  In the same way under Calvinism God is not loving.
b.      Love consists of actions and attitudes that have the other’s best interest in mind.
c.      God is the creator of people.
d.      God draws some people to himself through irresistible grace (in Calvinism).
e.      God does not draw some people to himself through irresistible grace (in Calvinism).
f.      The people God does not draw to himself will end up in hell, with terrible torment.
g.      Ending up in long term (eternal?) terrible torment is not in the best interest of people.
h.      God is not loving to some people (in Calvinism)



2.      Argument by Analogy – Responsibility for One’s Creation
a.      If I created a virus that would create a lot of suffering and death (it may work directly or indirectly), and I knew ahead of time who the virus would affect, and I released the virus anyways, I would be not loving, but rather responsible for the damage the virus directly or indirectly caused.
b.      God is the creator of people.
c.      Love consists of actions and attitudes that have the other’s best interest in mind.
d.      God foresees that some of his people will create evil in their actions; on the whole their life will be more evil then good.
e.      God knows that if he does not draw people to him through his grace they will behave in an evil way.
f.      God creates evil people anyways.
g.  God is not loving to some people (in Calvinism)



3.      Argument by the Problem of Evil
a.      There is a huge amount of evil in the world; both natural and moral evil.
b.      God is the creator of people.
c.      Love consists of actions and attitudes that have the other’s best interest in mind.
d.      Good actions are similar to loving actions; both have the best interest of the other person in mind.
e.      God has given some people the appearance of choosing good behaviors; in fact they are not really even given a choice (in Calvinism), but are irresistibly drawn to behave in a loving, good way.
f.      God has not given some people the appearance of choosing good behaviors; in fact they are not really even given a choice (in Calvinism), but are selfish in nature and aside from God’s drawing them in will behave in an evil way.
g.  God is indirectly responsible for the moral evil in the world (with Calvinism)



4.      Argument by the Extreme Nature of Hell, and God as Worse than Hitler
a.      Hitler was a torturer and murderer (among other things); his actions were evil (in one sense) because he inflicted unnecessary suffering on people.
b.      God has created people that are by nature selfish and on the whole will do evil over the course of their lives.
c.      There is way more suffering and evil in the world then is necessary as a consequence of evil actions of men (see argument 5 if you disagree with this premise)
d.      Hell is the punishment for leading a selfish, hurtful earthly life.
e.      God has created a system that leads to eons of time (if not eternal time) of unnecessary suffering.
f.  God (in Calvinism) is more evil than Hitler.



5.  Argument by Options of God
a.   If God is able to draw us all to lead good, holy lives, irresistibly, why doesn’t He?
b.       Logically speaking, there are only 2 options:
1.      God is not able.  This goes against Calvinism however (and standard Christianity as well).
2.      God is not willing.

Therefore, God is not willing to draw some of his people to himself to lead loving lives (with Calvinism).
     Is he not also their creator?
     Does he not share responsibility for the actions of these selfish people he has created when he is not willing to draw them into loving lifestyles, and he knows ahead of time they will commit evil and does not prevent it?
     Is God not arbitrary in his love?  What has one child done to receive the undeserved love and attention that another child does not?




Biblical Arguments

6.       Argument by God Calling us to Love All Men and Not Doing it Himself
a.       Love consists of actions and attitudes that have the other’s best interest in mind.
b.       We are called to love others; and not to make a distinction between loving the elect and not loving the damned. 
c.      Jesus loved other people; including those who rejected him.
d.      In Calvinism God is seen as being loving towards the elect, but allowing the damned to continue in selfish ways, leading eventually to hell.  Hell consists of suffering, for eons of time (possibly eternity).  Therefore in Calvinism, God is not loving towards the damned but simply allows them to continue on to hell.
e.      There is a direct contradiction between God’s attitude as expressed in Calvinism and Jesus’ example in the bible of showing love towards everyone.




7.      Jesus and the Prophets Believed We Have Free Choice and Exhorted Us to Choose to be Loving.
a.      Jesus assumed we have the power of free choice when he taught and commanded us to do good actions and to be loving.
b.      The prophets assumed we have free choice when they exhorted us to choose to be loving and to choose good actions.
c.      If we do not have free choice then Jesus and the prophets were mistaken and wasting their breath – some people will turn out good and others not, and it doesn’t matter what is said if there is no free will.
d.      There is a direct contradiction between God’s attitude as expressed in Calvinism and Jesus’ and the prophets examples of the expectation of free will in their audience.


8.      Direct Refutation of Calvinism in One Verse
a.      1 Timothy 2:3-7 "...God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle - I am telling the truth, I am not lying - and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles." (emphasis mine)
b.      So if God wants all to be saved according to the bible, and if Calvinism holds that this is not the case; they cannot both be right.  One or the other is correct.
c.      Again if God wants all to be saved, and some are not (as the bible also teaches), then this is inconsistent with the doctrine of irresistible grace.  Again, either the bible is correct, or Calvinism is correct.
d.      Given the choice between the bible which is clearly contradicting Calvinism, and Calvinism, it is very clear that the bible should win out if someone is considering this in a detached manner.

Just for Philosophy's sake:

Quote Pratekya:

There are very strong reasons for believing that God exists.  One of them is the Kalam cosmological argument that has been put forward lately by William Lane Craig.  It follows like this:

1.  Whatever begins to exist has a cause
2.  The universe began to exist
3.  Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Its hard to argue against this logic, and each of the statements has more meaning.  In a nutshell, this cause must have been outside of space and time (since the big bang created space and time) 

Logically, this is not a resolution of this (at least) 2300 years old dilemma; I can continue:
5. The universe has a cause
6. The cause is before the effect
7. Therefore, there must have been something before the universe
With this "before" you can start over again this reasonning ad infinitum.  The formerly called "beginning" of the universe isn't the beginning at all, because the cause of it was before, therefore the formerly called "beginning" isn't a beginning.
Of course, the only solution then is to say "outside of space and time", but then "cause", "effect", "beginning" have no meaning anymore. Furthermore, the relationship to God is not given in this reasoning.

Spooky