Not sure what to say for risk of stirring trouble, but an observation is (a) not necessarily true and (b) of itself not inherently a judgement of anybody - unless it's used to attack. It may be of course, but even then is probably best to bite the tongue.

The issue we seem to be stuck with is that two views seem to have emerged on teachers - the 'bin them if they seem not to have been perfect so they can't mislead' argument, and the more relative view that says take responsibility for yourself and apply discrimination to draw on what they have to say that's good to you.

This is no trivial issue, because many high profile teachers (most of whom I have drawn a great deal from) have been accused of sexual and other funnies - and i think it's unwise to reject their teachings and writings wholesale for this reason alone.

I've my own (complex) views on why this may be, but wonder if it's not the case that any attempt to generalise or to 'win' on this debate on this debate does not amount to a refusal to allow others to take responsibility for themselves??

Point being we're all entitled to a view, and there's nothing wrong with expressing it but surely it's down to those hearing to choose???? Even God leaves us free to choose our own path...

Yes, this is what happens sometimes when we "use our words," as we ask children to do rather than physically "duke" it out.

So, I think it is okay. When the breath slows our views always become clearer. But it can take time.

As an aside, and not because I feel compelled to keep this topic alive in this particular form, I should say that I do believe this thread is totally on topic, and involves very important and very basic concepts which make a difference in how we perceive people here on earth and in all metaphysically oriented explorations.

Justin, you mentioned one who came and reportedly spoke words which sound harsh to some, but were used to expose what he considered to be false teachings, and he did reportedly occasionally become extremely abrupt and emotional.

But what did he teach the "common" folk? Those who would listen?

Gentleness, love, sharing, mercy, forgiveness. He said, let the children come to me.

love, blink

Thank you Eternal Essence.....I suppose this thread may disturb some who view it.

I think there is quite a lot of excellent content here, though, from all. The boundaries between this world and the other are not always well-defined, and I find much here to ponder regarding the motivations behind our intentions, which is exactly where we begin when we travel.

love, blink

Eternal Essence:

If you thoroughly consider what is being discussed, you wouldn't be so quick to hide the thread at a place where nobody can see it. Certainly one doesn't grow by sticking one's head in the sand like an ostrich.

Plus many threads on the main forum seem to be off topic.

EternalEssence wrote on Oct 26^th, 2007 at 9:02am:

Blink:

You asked Ahso and I what our cup of tea is. Speaking for myself, I no longer read books about spiritual practice. Not to suggest I'm above such a thing, but I've done so a ton, and things have gotten to the point where it is no longer helpful. At this point I've found it is much better to figure things out myself, along with the help of spirit guidance.

Not to say there aren't any books I like. I'd say my favorites are Bruce Moen's Voyage to Curiosity's Father, Robert Monroe's Ultimate Journey, Rosalin Mcknight's Cosmic Journeys, and Howard Storm's near death experience book. These books don't say much about spiritual practice. They do indicate the importance of love. I don't believe one needs to read a bunch of guru books in order to figure out how to live according to love. I also like the notes I make while journaling and such.  I find out a lot about myself this way.


Alysia:
I do not have any pent up anger about gurus. Surely a person can feel strongly about the wrongs some people do to others, without personal hurt being a factor. Perhaps it is simply a matter of a person feeling strongly about the spiritual welfare of the human race.

Ahso:
You made some good points. For example, some people believe that unless you're enlightened you can't judge whether another person is enlightened. Boy am I familiar with that line of thinking. Many false gurus have thrived partly because their followers think in such a way. As you pointed out, some people can tell what a person is like by his or her energy field. I doubt Osho radiated pure white light. Also, unless a person actually lives his life in a balanced and loving manner, I could care less how good he is at coming up with words that sound profound. It really makes a difference to me whether a person is serving the light or his or herself.

Your point about tuning into the energy level of a person one follows is also key. Their are some gurus who are known for having a lot of shakti (an Indian word for energy), yet they are clearly not enlightened. Why is this so? One reason might be because their followers have made an energetic connection to them. If you connect to such a guru, not only do you connect to the guru, you connect to an energy field that includes the followers of that guru. Despite how things might seem,  spirits who are currently making use of bodies, can make energetic connections at a spirit level. If one feels an energetic attraction to a guru that has many signs of being false, one might ask what part of one's energy is connecting to this guru. 

I also agree that when we are in the physical realm, it is a mistake to try to act as if we are living in a higher realm. Your ahole analogy is accurate. It makes no sense to tell somebody like Adolph Hitler, "That's okay fella, you're just living your light in your own way." One does everybody including "him" a big favor when one tries to point out his errors.

Regarding receiving criticism, I've grown a lot by being open to it. Ironically enough, some of this occurred while I was with the group I speak of. But this criticism didn't come from the guru. It came from some of the group members I lived with. These people were very loving people, and gave me criticism for my sake. Sometimes my spirit guidance will also points out my  faults. This is also very helpful.

recoverer,

It is important to you? Yes, I understand that. I realize that it is important. But that is a side issue to whether it is in context with the thread that it appears on? Because the topic appears on a different thread, it should not be considered hidden. I read the off-topic posts just as frequently as other threads.

Also, I appreciate the gesture at the end of the post and assure everyone that I do not post any reply without having read all the replies or topics referencing it prior to answering.

Perhaps this thread will straighten itself out. Only time will tell.

E.

Please excuse me, E, but I did not say anything close to what you have "quoted" here. That was not me, if it was said.

But I'm glad if it made you laugh anyway.

love, blink


EternalEssence wrote on Oct 26^th, 2007 at 2:05pm: