Vajra:

You make it sound like a person has to be an all knowing master before he or she can discriminate whether or not a person is the enlightened master he or she claims to be.

What if turns out a person who claims to be enlightened isn't? If this is the case, there is no need for an enlightment litmus test of some kind.  All one has to identify what is false.

Once a person becomes clear about the shortcommings of certain types of teachings, it doesn't take long to see where a guru is coming from. At this point I don't have to read a lot, before I can tell where a guru is coming from.

Plus, after one has seen what guru after guru is about, one finally comes to the understanding that a person who really knows something wouldn't take part in an approach that resembles the approach taken by false gurus. Such a person would find a way to distance his or her self from such an approach.

Regarding their going through growing pains, many of them go through growing pains until they die. Many claim to be perfected all knowing masters despite their growing pains.  Plus some of their growing pains are inexcusable. Plus it goes beyond their behavior. They say things that are false, and never get around to saying things that are key. So many of them are like parrots. Repeating what false gurus before them said.





 

recoverer wrote on Oct 12^th, 2007 at 7:51pm:


  I'm sure that's possible, but in Cayce's case, it seemed to mostly happen in obvious ways when people near him were thinking and feeling in a particularly strong way, i.e. being "emotional" about it as we say nowadays. Usually he tried to surround his readings with a prayerful, humorous, and appreciative type of environment.   But, as in the case of his father (who was kind of a negative person in general), sometimes it couldn't be helped, or sometimes he just ate particularly unhealthily, smoked too much, etc. or occasionally had the wrong motivations for getting a reading...

  But yeah, i do know what you mean about meditating around others and picking up on 'noise'.    In Michael Newton's case, my sense is that its more skewing relating to his conscious interpretation of what his patients did say, not in obvious ways, but in more subtle ways inserting his own beliefs or belief blockages.   For example, the existence of Atlantis, many of his clients talked about advanced ancient cultures and lands that we as a society don't know about today, but Michael wrote it off as them talking about experiences on other planets.  Or saying that it was an allegorical myths or experiences in other dimensions which get translated as physical but really aren't. 

  What seems clear is that he doesn't believe in "Atlantis" and so info that comes up as possibly supportive of Atlantis, he tries to interpret differently.  Most of us do this to some extent or another.

Ah So and Recoverer. Thanks for that. My thought is actually that we're in a pretty similar space on this, so don't view this as disagreement or argument. Nor was the point to in some way cast doubt on motives.

My intention was to move us towards discussion of the practical issue of how to approach possible teachers or spiritual friends.

What I was trying to bring into focus is the fact that many of us seem to (as in most human affairs) head for for the polarities when deciding how to approach a teacher. Those on the doubting wing (if they even get beyond prejudice to make an approach) often tend to apply simplistic rule based criteria in judging them, with a 'one miss and you are out' mindset learned from politics and other forms of competitive public debate. Others suspend their disbelief and natural intelligence. Many seek an ability to 'play the part' in a teacher - if they don't fit some stereotype they can't be real. There's also a tendency to view enlightenment as a sudden transformation that confers some sort of infallibility on the  person concerned.

The result is that lots of teachers with a lot of wisdom to communicate are dismissed out of hand. Equally lots of fairly obviously dodgy characters enjoy total acceptance until something busts the bubble leading to the often heard refrain 'I was misled'.

Which implies that our own innate wisdom and intuition (or stage of enlightenment) is also a big part of successfully working with a teacher - especially given that early on our judgement is fairly poor.

My sense is that enlightenment (whether applied to the student or the teacher) is as you suggest not all that simple. We're all capable of moments of enlightenment - 'ah-ha' moments  when the discursive mind gets out of the way and we open to all. At the other end of what's probably a very complicated multidimensional continuum there's those (probably a very few) like Jesus and the Buddha who reputedly achieved and lived complete enlightenment. (whatever that is!)

With all of those variables in play it's probably no wonder that the student teacher relationship creates lots of froth!!

It's maybe worth considering what the reality of the situation may be:

Your teacher is probably not fully enlightened.
Even if he/she is their actions may not yet fully reflect this.
Much of what is attributed to teachers is often generated by followers or commentators, and would not be subscribed to by the teacher.
You are almost certainly not enlightened either.
Your ability to discriminate in this regard between teachers is consequently probably limited too.
Your teacher won't always be perfect.
Your teacher won't always fit your expectations.
Your teacher is primarily responsible for doing no harm.
But it's your responsibility to apply discrimination - to avoid ego trips, to properly balance caution with openness, to be prepared to assume some considered risk to achieve progress while not being naive.
Trust and commitment (in both directions) can with validity build only with mutual experience.

Much like most life situations there's usually good in there (often lots) mixed up with the not so good or occasionally the downright bad. Our task (our spiritual path) requires us to with flexibility, openness, dedication, discriminating intelligence and compassion find our way through this maze.

All the while knowing that while we may in our weaker moments hope for it that there's no such thing as a free lunch....

Just my 2C of course, which may or may not be all that useful. Thoughts on how to approach teachers?

Quote:


  This thread as become as varied as tea itself.   Hi Beautiful Blinking one, very important Heart balance and point you bring up.   I agree, and realize that most of us (me very much included), could stand to focus more on the truth that we all are teachers or students at different moments. 

   All in all, i feel that for me, i should try to follow more my own inner guru, than looking outside.

  But, beyond these broad generalizations, i thought we were talking more specifically about those individuals who set themselves up as teachers of truth to others either directly or indirectly, such as Osho?

  When these are knowingly false, and being destructive to others, sometimes they need to be blasted away (their falseness), just as did Yeshua with the false teachers of his time, the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes.      

  Water first, then Fire, Blink, Fire.....

thoughts on how to approach teachers...

just to approach your higher self as a teacher for yourself.

if you do find a guru or teacher "out there" somewhere, and if they are a genuine teacher of spiritual measure, meaning at mastership level or approaching that, it will be their born and sworn duty to dash all your expectations that they have some secret knowledge which you do not possess.
I noticed you're a meditator who often enters that blissed awareness. that is where your teacher is hiding.

love, alysia

what did I do before enlightenment? chop wood, carry water. what did I do after enlightenment? chop wood carry water 

Dave's comments: But even more than that, there are two things that we must do alone, passing the doorways to eternity. We must be born - Mom helps, as does the midwifery, but it's up to us to take the first breath. And then, we die alone. We might be surrounded by friends, but we still do it alone. In fact, friends may interfere - Ambrose Bierce (if memory serves) on his death bed told his friends, "Shut up! I'm busy dying."
_____

haha! love it Dave. as a matter of fact u just gave me some grist for my mill; I have a whole rote coming in I need to write down after this post..so thanks. love to write stuff down.  I don't think honest seekers after truth realize we are dying every day; some belief system dies, or some thought dies that one used to be happy and content with, or attached to, I should say. a mini death, a feeling of death upon the soul which strives after truth only to lose it, the best idea they ever had.
so yea, its best if you see someone dying, not to flap the lips on them but listen to their sound of dying, so if they need you, you can just hold their hand and thats all they really wanted anyway. we all want to be loved and we all want to love.

then u mention your wife Dave, and I'm getting this picture over here that she is your cup of tea...then I think about high maintenance partners, and I see our wonderful Dave here, in his own words, sluggishly oozing, in tube worm fashion, again, his own words, towards enlightenment ...Dave, I have to stop here and congratulate you on your use of the english language..I see entire pictures in my mind when you talk..so talk on!

ok, I'm moseying on over to my rote to unfold, its like a map, words are maps and the mind is the magnifying glass you use to focus in on them.

then I have to chop wood and carry water...

Oliver said: Also, if you were fully enlightened, would you also be omnicscient, or not? What would that be like? Having nothing more to learn or be curious about, and knowing everything about everybody?
____

I think enlightenment or ascension, is a process, not like poof! now you are enlightened. if u look at some of our avatars down thru the centuries, they don't stay for long lifetimes, at least not in the public eye. I believe that is because they have learned to "appear and disappear" at their own discretion, sort of like being visible or invisible, they are able to do what we would consider magic, but to a master it's just natural.

and knowing everything about everybody is another way to look at that:
there are some people who read minds. it's not that they study how to do this; the one I am thinking about was born this way for a purpose. not sure what the purpose is, and it was annoying for him and he had to think of a way to shut it down and turn it back on if he needed it. think of the constant bombardment of useless thoughts that would come into him until he learned how to close it down.

I believe the nature of the universe is found within the nature of infinity. therefore I see no reason to feel trepidation over the loss of curiosity.