Thank you for this Recoverer



If you really researched Rajneesh (he used Osho for such a short time), you would find that his followers aren't responsible for his bad reputation.

OK, thanks. I don;t really know that much about him to be honest, I was just trying to provide balance. Also, I didn;t say I thought he was prefect, I said I thought someone imperfect could still have some spiritual insights.

Regarding expecting gurus to be perfect, the thing is, many of them claim to be perfect and all knowing, and put themselves on a pedestal. If you got to know their followers, you'd find that they tend to view their guru as being infallible, and resultantly limit themselves to whatever limited wisdom their guru has to share. My feeling is that if people who don't claim to be all knowing and perfected masters can be loving, ethical, moral and honest, then why can't a famous supposed all knowing master such as Sai Baba refrain from being a child molester?

I see. Yes, I guess they do. My feeling is that if someone really has "perfected" themselves and are "enlightened"then why not say so? However, I'm not sure what criteria some people go on, in making such claims, and no doubt many are deluded. Also I do wonder what "perfect" means anyway. reading parts of the NT for example I do not see Jesus, as depicted, as always "perfect." Would a "perfect" person never get angry, never have envious or lustful or proud or vengeful thoughts, never feel sad apart from for others, and spend every minute of the day in humble and loving service  ? I don't know. I think however that there must be a danger in too much focus on a guru in that you might forget they are just human like you, and not to be worshipped and set up as something different and unobtainable. I find Sai Baba a bit dubious, not only for the reason you said, but also, eg his obsession with materialising trinkets and so on - it just looks like it could be conjouring.

I found that you can't discriminate a source of information simply by focussing your attention on what sounds true. Just about anybody can say something that sounds true or teach techniques that have an effect.  

But just because "just about anybody"can say something that sounds true, surely you could also turn that around and say "just about anybody can say something that is true, or teach me something" - isn;t that the case as well? But you have to be discriminating and not treat people as infallible.


It is obvious that Rajneesh was an avid book reader. Started out by getting a masters degree in philosophy. Afterwards, he became a professor of philosophy. Eventually that wasn't enough for him, and he decided to become a guru. It is obvious part of his rap was influenced by Krishnamurti. He spent a lot of time talking about Krishnamurti. He did so with the intention of getting people to interpret Krishnamurti's anti guru words differently.

I see. Yes, I noiced the Krishnamurti connections. I find Krishnamurti inspiring from what I've read, but, for example, I read someone who knew him who said he could be somewhat cold and  haughty towards people who he regarded as not on the same rarified spiritual level as himself (I forget the precise wording), which I thought was a shame, and not what you'd expect. Also he apparently had a long-running affair with someone else's wife.

Regarding spirits being able to grow while in the World of spirit, why not? Sources of information that seem to be valid (as far as I can tell), state that there are many beings who never incarnate physically. Sources also state that souls are closely connected to other souls in the spirit World (this goes along with my experience). Whether one uses a term like disk or a term like soul group,  such souls share their experiences with each other and aid each other's growth. This precludes the necessity of manditory numerous incarnations.

I don' t think I said they didn' t, did I? No, i agree, that's how it sounds like things work to me, from what I've read. I said people are wrong if they think you are suddently perfect in spirit. However even spirit communications and OBE journeys etc seem to become vague when you start talking about perfection and ultimate goals. They speak vaguely of merging with the One and such-like, but aren;t sure what this is like or really means. I have been reading Jouney of Souls, which is an intersting book about spiritual development other various lifetime snad in-between lives. one thing I find a little odd and vaguely off-putting though, is the way the author seems to be claiming there are seemingly a limited number of quite rigidly-defined levels of spiritual evoultion, which he ascribes certain names and colours of aura to; whereas I would have thought things would be more complicated than that.

It is also important to consider that the World of spirit doesn't have the limitations we have in the physical World. Therefore, there are countless ways in which one can grow. For example, in his book "Voyage to Curiosity's father" Bruce wrote about Sylvia. She was an abusive person. After she died, because she was a Christian, she remembered to think of Jesus and received help instead of remaining stuck in a lower realm. Light beings came to her aid. They exposed her to PUL, and this enabled her to become honest about the kind of person she was.  This was followed by energetic work that enabled her to become free of the energetic/thought energy that limited her. Also consider the life review factor. Many near death experiencers have found that life reviews can have quite an effect.

I see, thanks for the example. It;'s good to think we can always progress

When the above is considered, it seems reasonable that physical incarnations are chosen not because a soul is "required" to live one, but rather because a soul believes a physical incarnation will help in some way. Are there exceptions? Perhaps. I don't know. Whatever the case, I belive it is partly human vanity that causes people to believe that human incarnations are the "only" way to grow. I believe a real master would have a more expanded viewpoint.

Uh-huh. Yes, maybe it's quite a human viewpoint

P.S. Overall, I guess it is okay when people find words of wisdom in false sources of information. The problem occurs when they listen to words that aren't true.

Sure

Our minds are tricky things. Once we're exposed to something, that something becomes a part of our memory banks.  When our minds start interpreting things they aren't limited to what we consciously chose to believe.  Sometimes restrictive thought patterns are formed unconsciously.  

I see what you mean; yes, and sometimes we need to reexaminne our habits of thought and beliefs about the world and ourselves to see if the old ideas we have acquired are useful or not

This is more likely to happen if a person is overly quick to accept what he or she reads.

Yes, you shouldn't think everything is true just becasue it's written in a book!

Even if a person chooses to not believe a particular part of a source of information, this person's overall accepting attitude toward the source might cause he or her to form a belief system unconsciously. Just go to any forum where people who believe in Eastern teachings hang out. They are just as bound to their beliefs as Western religious people.

I see what you mean. and I am sure you are right about "eastern" believers. Historically in the west we have tendancy to think anything from the "East" is wise, but you should take a questioning and not gullible approach to that as well, no doubt, and try to think for yourself and not think any one person or system necessarily has all the answers

 

 So one bottle of perfumed oil is akin to many, many rolls Royce's and all that other extra stuff that Recoverer mentioned?    Actually, i do get your deeper message behind this post, but you also have to look at this incident in context of what was going on.

Haha. It was only semi-serious.

  Yeshua knew his public, consistent time with his friends was soon nearing an end. He told them this more than a few times.   They heard, but many did not really listen.   Many (like Judas) still had hopes of a political, King like Messiah coming forth, and leading Israel out of the mouth of the Romans, and its own internally corrupt systems (priests, lawyers, much like today).  

 Miriam M., was one who believed and listened to Yeshua's words, and felt moved that moment to show her love, affection, and respect in a physical act, and he knowing that she would probably become quite upset about the near future conditions surrounding him, decided to just accept her gift in the spirit of which it was given.

Did you know there is not actually any proof this woman was MM and some people find it an unwarranted slur on her name that the Catholic church traditionally associated her with this woman (who Luke says had led a sinful life) and also made out she was a prostitute before becoming Jesus follower. I believe I read the Church has now admitted this (i.e. that this is an old tradition, but there is no evidence for it). However i do see the point you are making about how Jesus behaved (reacting to her spontaneous love etc, not proud of having expensive perfume poured on him). BTW, not saying there's something terrible about being an ex-prostitute, just that, it would seem, there is no particular reason to think MM was one, and this image of the sinful woman saved by jesus has predominated instead of instead of her being depicted as what she possibly was - a strong, independant female follower of Jesus, who is, possibly uniquely in the Bible (?), named after the place she is from and not her father or husband, who is reported to have been the first person to see the risen Jesus, and in some apocryphal literature is even called his "companion" and said to be his most loved disciple

 As far as Osho is concerned, one doesn't end up with 150 R.R.'s just because a bunch of people spontaneously decide to give gifts from the heart, to one not expecting or asking for anything.   It's quite apparent that Osho must have had some kind of liking for R.R.'s, and perhaps even asked for them from others, or put out 'hint, hints'.   Yeshua did not ask for the perfumed oil and it was as far as we know, a one time dealio.

 Or maybe that first part of the above paragraph does happen in your reality and universe?  

Oh yes, people donate Rolls Royces to me all the time, and I am sure it is just out of love  

Orlando:

I don't have personal experience with Rajneesh/Osho, but I used to belong to another group led by another false guru (there are so many), and a number of people came from his Oregon operation to my group (If I remember right, after his Oregon operation was shut down).  These people were nice, but you could tell that their experience with Rajneesh had some negative consequences.

orlando123 wrote on Oct 12^th, 2007 at 5:25pm:

Must say I have a very high level of respect for Osho's writings which while i've not read that widely I've not been able to fault.

While I can't judge his ultimate status,  I get the impression that many of the scandals erupted out of his not exerting control on those around him. He's far from the first great teacher to find himself in that situation.

Get the impression too that there were powerful forces out to nail him for whatever reason...

Blink:

There's a lot to read on this thread. Did you catch what Ahso wrote below?  The reason so many fake gurus get away with their nonsense, is because people are too quick to apologize for them. In the end they don't do themselves a favor, and they misguide other unsuspecting people to a false source of information.


Ahso wrote:
"This is why the left brain is important, because in its highest function or purpose, the left brain represents clear discrimination of what's helpful/constructive and what's not.   Otherwise, we would just get lost down the rabbit hole of the Right brains, 'dude believe and do whatever you want to believe' regardless of the positive and negative affects on self and/or others.  Notice how so many stoner types, also tend to be rather right brain lopsided too?"


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Here's a site that explains about Rajneesh's name change, plus the key paragraph:

Name Change

In 1988 thirty years after taking the title, ''Bhagwan,'' (which means ''the embodiment of God'') Rajneesh admitted the title and his claim to be God were a ''joke.'' ''I hate the word... I don't want to be called Bhagwan (God) again. Enough is enough. The joke is over,'' stated Rajneesh saying he was really the reincarnation of Buddha and claiming for himself the new title of ''Rajneesh Gautaman the Buddha,'' (Star Telegram, Dec. 29, 1988; Sec.1, p. 3). Later he took the title, ''Osho Rajneesh,'' a Buddhist term meaning ''on whom the heavens shower flowers.'' (Ibid, 1/20/90).

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b40.html

According to the attached article, Rajneesh also claimed to be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ on a video. I haven't seen it, so I can't speak from first hand knowledge. Footnote number 3 leads to the videos. I didn't want to take the time to listen to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_claimed_to_be_Jesus

Ahso:

Regarding what you wrote about Cayce picking up on the thoughts of people around him during readings, since he was in a hypnotic state, and since Michael Newton's clients were in a hypnotic state, I wonder if they sometimes picked up on his thoughts about how things are.

I've had meditations where I picked up on the mental noise that belongs to other people. I experienced this quite a bit when I came back from Spain last summer (2006). The flight from New York to San Francisco took 9 1/2 hours due to runway problems. I tried to pass the time by meditating. Problem is I kept seeing and hearing things that didn't have anything to do with me. I figure some might've come from the other passengers (the plane was crammed), and some might've come from people the plane I was on flew over.  One those stars I've talked about just flashed by the word "other." Perhaps this means the noise came from other people.  Occasionally this will happen while driving. I'll pick up thoughts that seem to come from other people. I call it noise because I can't make sense out of what I'm seeing and hearing.