Hi i was watching a documentary about the turin shroud and i think it is genuine i believe it was the shroud that was placed around jesus after he was crucified ,their were a lot of proven facts about it which outweighied the disproven facts ,but it was commented that jesus was still alive when he he was taken down from the cross because jesus was only on the cross for 3 hours and it wasnt long enough time for him to die on the cross ,it was commented that it usually took up to about 5 days before someone died on the cross ,i dont believe this i believe that jesus died on that cross what does anyone else think to this love deanna

Hi blink i agree their is something very special about the turin shroud i really believe it was the same shroud that was used to cover jesus after his death god bless love deanna

Hi Deanna, hope it's OK to express an alternative but I think complementary view - one which contains a slight caution.

My personal take on stuff like the shroud is that while it's clearly a very wonderful artefact it's almost impossible to reach a point where genuineness is proven beyond doubt. The same sort of consideration surfaces around spiritual teachings, the bible and the like. We could spend our lives seeking certainty and never get anywhere.

The Buddha for example said probably 10% of what's taught in his name today.

But in the context of our personal situation and journey it maybe doesn't matter. Because we each live in a different reality. Because the nature of the path we are on is such that we each have to draw what 'truths' we intuitively feel make sense from our total experience in this reality (and that includes seeing stuff like the shroud and being exposed to teachings) and then go on and try to live them.

Point being that there's no absolutes in any of this game. Meaning that while we all draw strength and insight from  that which we feel to be genuine we can never know for sure. Meaning that it's maybe important that the positions we adopt always contain an element of fluidity or provisionality about  them.

Maybe maintaining that fluidity is one dimension of awakening,

We somehow never find a place where we can drive a permanent stake in the sand - we're all travellers, all on a journey and always evolving. Even the places we've ourselves been when subjected to subsequent higher understanding can look very different in retrospect...

recoverer wrote on Oct 9^th, 2007 at 8:13pm:



  You all are forgetting that supposedly, according to both the N.T. accounts, and to the shroud indications, that Yeshua, and the man on the shroud, also had a spear put into his side from which 'water' seemingly spilled out in great quantities.    A man's body severely beaten and traumatized over time will store up great amounts of a clearish body fluid, which has the purpose of acting as a protective barrier, and possibly speeds up the healing process of such wounds.  Also, a person's lungs in such a sustained position as in crucifixion will tend to fill up with fluids.   Either way, no doubt if he wasn't dead before this, he would definitely die after this.

  The spear wound in the image of the man of the shroud, can even be matched up to a relatively clear degree of accuracy to a roman spear (blade) type used during Yeshua's times.   

  The man on the shroud was not "staked through the hands and feet" but rather through the wrists and just above the ankles--this being anatomically probably the correct way of successfully crucifying someone in a real and practical manner--though there is some debate on whether the hands and feet could hold up the weight of a man...

According to many sources, death in crucifixion comes more through a type of strangulation or drowning from the lungs, and them eventually filling up with fluids.  But, its been quite awhile since i've read about this stuff, so i'm not sure about how accurate the above is.

  Deanna, while i'm somewhat interested in this subject, with all due respect, isn't this something that belongs a lot more in the "off topic" section?

Greetings,

What do you stubblies and ladies  think of the claim that yes, it was a death shroud of a crucified man, and yes the image may have come from a flash of energy mixed with these bodily fluids, but that the person was a crucified founder of an order of monks in the 1100's?
(I think that's the date, the order was the Benedictine's, and Jacques DeMolay was the leaader crucified as part of tthe squashing of the Knights Templar.)

The diversity of opinions on this has ranged far beyond this small discussion, so I'm asking only for your point of view, because you have my respect;     I'm not asking you to proove anything.

Love, Betson

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  Don't knock it till you try it?  J/K, thank you for not taking it in a negative way, i didn't mean it negatively, though i suppose if i were to be completely honest with self and others, i was being somewhat judgmental towards you in a sense (except that there was very little active emotion involved in the perception)...   I too have a rather 'masculine' body in many respects--more hairy than i would at times like..

  As far as what i was saying about Yin polarization at times, WE ALL do this to varying degrees, my sense is that you are rather balanced as compared to the average.   I oft swing too much to the over balance of the yin or yang, at times, but generally speaking i'm consistently balanced enough to know and perceive what balance and imbalance looks and feels like.  I would say that nobody here (at least that i know of) is completely and perfectly balanced, otherwise they would completely and consciously transcend physicality and be pure light with seeming attributes of 'form'. 
Having read, and enjoyed many of your well written posts here, i have noticed a general tendency to over place emphasis on the Feminine Oneness, void, and fluidity aspect of Creation at least on the mental level.   This, in many respects is a very Eastern type approach, and it seems in general that the East has for a long time been imbalanced towards Yin on the mental and emotional levels of being.   I would suggest that perhaps we always retain some sense of individual, unique self no matter how spiritually developed we become...and this is where the West, and its imbalance comes in...the west has long placed way too much emphasis on the Yang, and individual, creating aspect of Creation. 


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   I completely agree with the above.  I think it is an interesting study, and the science i've read behind it has been quite interesting to me, but yeah, where does it really leave us?  In the end, its just a cloth which bears the imprint of a man, and 'believing' in it will get no one no where fast....  However, being what it is and with all the suggestive circumstantial evidence around it, it can spark within some a greater overall belief in things of the Spirit, or a renewal or re-dedication to same.   As far as i understand it, apparently in some respects it has been life changing regarding belief systems, to a few scientists who have put a lot of study into.   Isn't that worthwhile?   You and i might not need such material 'proofs', but this is a world populated by many doubting Thomas's .   Sometimes things outside of us, can act as a catalyst and if there is any material 'object' in this world, which could have a catalytic affect, its the SOT.   Isn't the name of the game to get as many people aware of the nonphysical as possible, by whatever means?

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   That's a great attitude and approach, but there are times to become Fire or Earth.   The way you mentioned, is a very Water and Air type way, and this is a necessary balance.   I always look to the example of those whom i believe had a perfect balance within self, such as the Teacher of Teachers, Yeshua.   There were times, where he became more Fire or Earth in regards to others or towards life in general, but oft he was the gentle, flowing, and fluid type which comes from a balance and mix of Air and Water. 

  No surprise again, that the East in general, tends more towards the Water and Air balance, and that is what you seem more so to align to.

  Your above quote reminds me a bit of that saying about moderation, and how we must be moderate even in moderation.    Same with flexibility, we should strive not to become inflexible in a single minded pursuit of flexibility.      Appearances in this world can be deceiving, and sometimes when we think we are being flexible and flowing, sometimes it's not true in the inner levels, though it might appear that way on the surface.   

   On a personal level, sometimes i emphasize the Fire and Earth balance/mix way, because karmically, i've actually over developed the Air and Water energies, and i'm trying to bring in the necessary balance of which Earth and Fire will give to me, if i can integrate and balance them all together as one within self.  In my chart, my karmic indications are primarily that of Water and Air.   Pisces South Node in 7th, Moon ruling 12th in Libra conjunct ruler of the 6th which makes only two major aspects besides, to Uranus and Neptune, and Uranus in Scorpio in the 4th House/Scorpio-Pisces decant Nadir.    That's a whole lotta Water and Air, and probably why i was born under Capricornus, with Leo Rising, and a lot of Earth (stellium of Virgo) besides.

  Again, thank you for taking my earlier comments in a good natured way, that speaks a lot of good about you and the path you are on.  And i do really enjoy your well thought out and written posts.

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  Correcting myself here, i shouldn't have said, the 'only "evidence"' since supposedly there was a Buddhist Monk, who in realizing the Light 'body', melted a hand print into bare rock.   I believe there are people who from a linear time/space perspective, realized their light body natures after Yeshua did (during this great cycle), and in times far, far, far past.   Cayce's source indicates that there were cycles in the very far past where many lived and existed as Gods, Monroe's info also indicates this about the very far past, and the somewhat near future.   But Cayce also indicates that recently (and by recent, we mean in the last 500, 000 years or so), that Yeshua was the first to be born of a woman, who completely transcended and transformed their physical energies, but also indicating that others since him have also done so...

We all eventually will too, i hope.

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Is a "light body" the same as a "rainbow body" -- by which supposedly highly-level Buddhist practitioners' bodies sometimes shrink and disappear after death. I have wondered before it that was a possible explanation of the story of Jesus'empty tomb