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discussion on the ultimate negative possibility (Read 18380 times)
blink
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #45 - Oct 24th, 2007 at 2:27pm
 
It is not really important, Pulsar, what I, personally, might consider "wrong-doing" in another. Ultimately, I don't think it is important.

Self-expression, for each of us, involves risk.

There are many risks to self-expression, and many scenarios possible in any given situation. What tips the scale in one direction or another? Are there only two directions in which to move?
Obviously not.

What hurts us also helps us at times, and we don't really know how everything truly works in our lives until we reach the end.

I have to say, yes, look at the results. But what will you actually see? Will you see the whole story, or only part of it?

We, as humans, from our individual perspectives, are not completely capable of seeing the whole story, in my opinion.

But we get glimpses, and we work from there, where we are.

love, blink Smiley

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pulsar
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #46 - Oct 24th, 2007 at 2:39pm
 
Hey there,

@ blink

We are not all knowing, that is for sure. But there is a measurement, that counts for us all, called human rights, call me conservative, but I do believe that they have to be followed, I see them as kind of an agreement we are bound to, respect, acceptance, for me these two are even on a higher position than love (to explain it shorlty, respect and acceptance are things you can offer to everyone, love has limits (I do not know how you view this, are respect and acceptance included in akc's idea of love, then using the word love would make sense, but again, only imho.)
Noone is flawless, but when chosing to live according to this "set of rules", the "big" mistakes can be avoided.

I do not want to start a fight here on what is more valuable, but I do believe in the things, that are motivated and presented through reason, that is my belief system.

regards,

pulsar
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it is determined.
 
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blink
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #47 - Oct 24th, 2007 at 2:50pm
 
I completely respect your point of view, Pulsar. Thank you for bringing the phrase "human rights" to my attention, because I do also agree that we live on the earth, with other human beings, and every human being has the right to certain basic dignities.

But life is not fair. Is it?  Do we know why? Many times it is because of our assumptions, which, when acted upon, are not in anyone's best interest....that we can see or understand.

But there are hidden gains.

I think it is a question of faith. How do we trust anyone in a world which seems unfair, and in which we can be "hurt" at any time?

We simply do it....we trust because we are human, and any other way of living is dry and barren, a wasteland, cold and uninviting.

And we know that warmth is in our nature, and our warmth is what gives us life.

love, blink Smiley



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vajra
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #48 - Oct 24th, 2007 at 3:47pm
 
Wink  Smiley Bloody hell, it's got lively here while I was away. I can see where you are coming from R and appreciate your concern, but I too think you're trying to force fit an idealised conceptual view of what should be on to a reality that's doesn't work that way.

I've already posted at length on the probably highly variable nature of enlightenment. It's got to be that way from this viewpoint - I can't think of even one teacher that's ever been universally acknowledged as such. (not even Jesus or the Buddha) Given that how are we ever going to learn anything from teachers if we're intent on refusing to engage until a perfect being comes into our life? Dumping them the moment they don't live up to our highly personalised take on what they should be amounts to much the same.

We're dealing with absolute wisdom and love trying to express through the medium of a human body and mind in this dualistic reality and multiplicity of cultures. There seem to have been a few known (like Jesus and the Buddha) who as a result of many enlightened lifetimes had got this down to a fine art, but that's about it. Lay on top of that our partial and relativistic perception (seeing one side of any situation as Alysia says) and it gets very mixed up indeed.

I don't for a moment condone knowingly misleading people, but the above means that by definition teachers are going to be perceived from differing perspectives.

Actions that appear questionable may not be, and vice versa. But one thing is clear. We have to take responsibility for ourselves and our path. We'll given our limited capability for sure make mistakes along the way, but surely learning is the point? It wouldn't do a great deal of good if it was only about wandering around in starry eyed adoration of always perfect teachers.

In the end it comes down to trust. We have to put our best foot forward and that involves not  wholesale acceptance of what any teacher says or does, but equally as above not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We cannot dispense with discretion, but equally we have to be prepared to lighten up and allow considerable space. And always look for the good, because what's positive is as Alysia says often negative through another narrow lens.

This is the human journey. There's plenty that happened in the 60s that was denounced from the pulpit and by the moral majority, but in retrospect much of it (and I'm thinking about sexual morality and human relationships here) while of itself having overshot and/or not been very realistic as a sustainable way of living did a very great good by grounding the consciousness that's badly needed (love for your fellow man, practical realisation of the horrors of war, care for the environment and the like) if humanity is to have any hope of survival. Ditto for the eastern traditions which in years gone by were often denounced as heathen immorality.

I'm left having to believe that it's the way it it is because that's the way it's meant to be. That it's perfection as it is if we can see it correctly. We have to trust in this. In fact are required to trust in this...
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pulsar
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #49 - Oct 24th, 2007 at 4:24pm
 
Hey there,

@ blink

Fairness and life sometimes do not go hand in hand. Life is our task, so fairness is not something we should take for granted, it is something we have to gain and fight for.
There are certain points in life when it comes to the question, if life is treating one with fairness, and easily we look at others and think "darn, why can't it turn out for me like for him/her?".
What to do about it? The only way is to go for what decision seems reasonable (not jumping on the next train to come, but taking a while to reflect) to get to the next level.
It probably takes some time, but everything you do to improve will be rewarded, not like the big deal coming around within the next seconds, did you have situations where you thought "I never guessed this or that would help me?".

Trust is a chapter for itself, I for myself am not trusting to easily in things, sometimes in an overdone way.
But on the other hand, we need something to trust in, even when life is a wasteland and cold, it cries for the ones who plant trees.
The biggest hurdle is to trust oneself. If this opportunity is not given, trusting in anything else would be a ride on razors edge.
What is missing these days somehow is honesty, so it is sometimes hard to divide the shallow from the trustworthy.

regards,

pulsar
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it is determined.
 
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blink
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #50 - Oct 24th, 2007 at 7:10pm
 
Yes, everything we do to improve is rewarded, Pulsar. I believe that.

Regarding, honesty...is honesty living according to what a person "perceives" as truth? Or is it something else?

Is honesty living without hypocrisy? Can it be done?

I think it can be done, but only when we slow down. So we can see our own motivations.

Can we do it alone? Sometimes, but not always. Besides, we are never alone.

I know you may find some of my statements contradictory. And that's alright.

love, blink Smiley





pulsar wrote on Oct 24th, 2007 at 4:24pm:
Hey there,

@ blink

...It probably takes some time, but everything you do to improve will be rewarded, not like the big deal coming around within the next seconds, did you have situations where you thought "I never guessed this or that would help me?".

...What is missing these days somehow is honesty, so it is sometimes hard to divide the shallow from the trustworthy.

regards,

pulsar

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LaffingRain
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #51 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 12:34am
 
well hmm. life is too short and sweet to argue who's telling the truth and who's out to con you. discernment is easy when u just stop worrying about it, spirit speaks to you from within.

here u go, and thanks Vajra for your post, its a good post, not necessarily because you mentioned my name  Cool but because you are well written.

here u go   "we teach what we need to learn." (I found this to be true.)

we are all teachers.
we are all students.

we teach others who we are.
they teach us who they are.

we learn from each other as well, but only if the other person is not coming off as if they are superior.
then we want to punch them.

best not to punch though. only with feather!  Smiley

go forth in life with a gentle and open heart, for this is the way of the warrior.

we become all knowing when we don't give a hoot anymore about knowing anything about anything because the wonder of another sunrise consumes the senses and love is everywhere you didn't find it before.

love is all we need. love is god.
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briggsandurlacher3
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #52 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 11:31pm
 
The Roman Catholic Church and Chrisitanity, has been lying to us for thousands of years.. So, is that to say people should give up Christianity??? I say yes/no... Because Christianity has it's good intentions and it's bad intentions.. The good it talks about love of the neighbor and to be a good samaritan.. The bad it talks about is that there is a fiery hell and people should live in fear of committing sins...  I could list more good and more bad about Christianity, but that's beside the point..

Blink, is right about "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.." That is what I am trying to point out as well.. I say don't give up religion fully.. Just throw out the bad that doesn't reside well with you.. That is why I stay with Christianity... Though my Christianity is Christian  Universalism... I throw out the bad part of fundimental Christianity! Not the whole thing obviously.. Christianity and Universalism are basically the same.. They only differ in the belief of that there is no hell and that God is not a person.. Obviously, Universalism is the one that believes in that there is no hell and what not..

So, really no one is really right or wrong in this discussion.. I believe more in moral relativism.. But that's a whole different ball game FOLKS!! Smiley

peace and love
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vajra
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Re: discussion on the ultimate negative possibilit
Reply #53 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 8:02am
 
I'm very much in the relative space on right and wrong too Briggsy - there's probably hardly an act that of itself cannot be either good or bad depending on circumstance. Life always requires us to apply wisdom and compassion in all our actions - we're never ever premitted to run on auto pilot or to blindly follow some rule or other.

Must say I don't have a lot of time for 'Christianity' in it's rule based hierarchical and institutional form which epitomises and teaches the opposite of the above. Which often fulminates against 'relativism'.

That said it's a sort of catch 22 problem. Access to teaching and mutual support are such important elements of all our paths - even those of us that plough what is a relatively solitary furrow actually depend heavily on access to all of these. Albeit often in unusual forms like this site, or the local bookshop, or your local Dharma group or whatever. The three jewels as Buddhism has it - the Buddha, the Dharma (the body of teaching) and the Sangha. (the body of practitioners)

It's just that given how egotistical and imbued with the authoritarian mindset that pervades our society  most people are it seems like no sooner do you have a religious grouping than you usually have individuals who set out to force their views on what it should teach and how it should run on others, and others who no matter what is proposed will not play their parts - all for reasons  which when closely looked at are inevitably driven by the (sometimes very subtle) motives that flow from ego and self interest.

It's such a subtle balance to achieve...
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