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Who Are We- Brain or Spirit? (Read 11234 times)
Rondele
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Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Sep 9th, 2007 at 11:24am
 
I was reading about a soldier who sustained a bad brain injury while in Iraq (not Bob Woodward).  This particular soldier was a loving, gentle person before the injury.  Afterwards, and clearly as a result, he became hostile and vicious, even trying to strangle his wife.

So that raises an obvious question.  Supposedly we are born with a spiritual identity that defines who we are.  We don't arrive on earth as an empty slate.  Granted, our upbringing and environment can and does have a significant influence on us as we grow, but the fundamental core remains.  But if the brain is changed via injury or disease, how does that affect the attributes of our core being?

Also, when the soldier dies and has his life review, I wonder what it'll be like?  What's the point of showing him how his actions, after his injury, caused distress and despair to his loving wife, children, and many others?  After all, it wasn't his fault nor was it representative of who he really is (or was).

There is only a rudimentary understanding of the brain and how it works.  If, by removing certain parts of the brain we can turn a loving person into a cold blooded killer, doesn't that raise some important questions as to how much our spiritual identity is really in charge?
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pulsar
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #1 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 1:17pm
 
Hey Rondele,

if we would start from the point that we, let's say, as part of our "higher self" were sent here to "learn". The consciousness might not be directly planted in the brain, but if the spirit is fed by consciousness, he would also get the negative impression.

Brain function or personality can surely suffer from accidents (loosing the ability to remember what was before the accident, some suffer from the result that the accident brought with them, not being able to use the whole body, maybe having lost parts of it.

But whem talking about soldiers, that got hostile after coming back from war, never forget that what they experienced can also cause a total change in personality. All the senseless violence and killing happening there, blood, guts, dead comrades, simply ruins the psyche.
So it is not the damage to his brain alone, but also what he experienced.
But not to water down what brain damage can cause to the body, our personality is also part of the brain, you have surely heard about patients having removed parts of the brain damaged by cancer, e.g. losing the ability to speak, because there is a part of the brain, that is responsible for the ability to speak.

I never heard about a part of the brain, where our personality is centered, but as all of our actions are controlled by the brain, the personality must also be a part of it, maybe spread over the whole brain.
If it is like this, then the posibility, that the injury swapped his personality, is given.

When asking what is a life review good for having lived a life with such a tremendous negative change, life review can only be considered, if looking on the beliefs of this soldier.
He was a soldier, that is no contradiction to be caring and loving when it comes to family and friends, but what about the point of view, or with which kind of belief he chose to be soldier, could be that he had a strong hate against any people down there (it is crooked after all, when one goes to war, he is obviously not interested in making friends at first sight), so from the point, that he should have lived in peace and harmony so that might be the lesson learned, thou shall not kill
(it is surely a good value, but how can we live according to such values, reality teaches that people do not give a damn about this, it is easier to do not so...but that is no real excuse, but this does not really belong here, since it is not opened to talk about moral issues).
It makes sense to how spiritual teachings encourage us to live. (I tried only to find some explanations, I  new to this kind of thinking and not a 
very spiritual person .. Embarrassed)

But it does not mean, that he lived a senseless life, I think also this kind of lessons are also a possiblity to grow (no I am not a sadist), morbid and cruel, but if they were meaningless, they would not be here. I do not claim them to be destiny, but war is mostly like a result of historical failures (made on political ground).

Mhh, but after all, stone age has passed, but man only changed from bat to machine-gun.

regards,

pulsar
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #2 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 1:43pm
 
Maybe the spiritual identitry is not in charge but it is just along for the ride. The distinction between the spirit and the brain, body seems to be the issue. Are we pre-wired to react a certain way which sometimes buries the influence of the spirit within a person. The world is a rough place and when the body takes over to preserve its self, anything can happen.  Also the bottom line might be we can not know or live another persons life for them. If a choice is made before I incarnate to this body then the same choice of experiences would apply for my loved ones. The choice is made by each soul and we are just, which I believe, events in each others lives. How does it feel to love, to hate, to kill, to protect, to turn on someone? The experience is not ours but it's created by us for a higher purpose.

This young man was not drafted so he did not have to go through this experience but he chose to. My daughter called this am and said she had a leak in their refrigerator line which soaked through the drywall onto the floor and warped the laminate wood flooring. Before they purchased the flooring, I mentioned to them it would warp if a minor spill occurred.  Each life event seems to be an emotional experience directed primarily to that person but can be changed if a different direction is chosen.  This might be a stretch to compare the two as to why it happens. To the soldier, maybe to teach the spirit about the horrors of war and killing and how each life is a precious resource. To my daughter, maybe the spiritual lesson is if you have the resources, you do the job right to prevent un-necessary monetary and emotional expenses when problems occurr. Their four day getaway is cancelled because of their pending house sale and it goes on with who it affects and disappointments and other things. The human brain is fragile and sometimes crap happens to upset the balance, as in the soldiers case. Regardless, the spirit is always there, watching.
Lardog


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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #3 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 2:29pm
 
Hey Rondele,

You brought up a really good question. I agree with basically what everyone else has mentioned, just wanted to throw in that there are different lobes in our brains that control different functions in the body. Our personality and who we are comes from the frontal lobe, in the front of the brain which is directly behind the forehead. Any physical harm done to the frontal lobe can significantly change our personalities, we talked about this in my intro to psych class...and I got some pretty interesting stories of people who completely did a 180 in their personalities, and your story reminded me of that. I'm a psych major and really interested in how the brain works, so you totally grabbed my interest in that question. What I know and am learning is just with knowing how our brain works, I would love to know the connection of our spirits with the brain. Maybe I'll try and hunt down one of my prof to see what they think and I'll try to get back to you on that.
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #4 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 3:38pm
 
Quote:
Maybe the spiritual identitry is not in charge but it is just along for the ride.


good point.  i think the spirit's influence on the body is perhaps "subtle."  in journey of souls there's a story of a lady whose soul purposely got her body into an accident.  she had to stay in bed for life, and her lesson was to learn about the non-physical parts of life.   another person had to live in the same area for their whole life, and their lesson was to learn about being stationary and not mobile in life. 

if there's learning value in having, say, depression or schizophrenia or alzheimer's, then there would presumably also be value from being brain-damaged. 

no, the spirit is not always held accountable for the body's behavior.. for example if a person is an abused orphan adopted by a street gang, obviously he is going to behave differently than someone from a strong family background.  but the lesson is there for them to learn from it.
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #5 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 6:40pm
 
While we tend to identify with solid objects and things that have names, I'm inclined to feel that what we are is essentially a matter of what we do, a process variable, and in that respect, our true nature is in our attitude. Else, when a brain cell died or a spiritual event occurred we would be fundamentally altered. In fact, attitude seems to survive life to life, subject to karma, and the rest is location, the stage on which we act it out

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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #6 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 9:40pm
 
Roger,

Your post draws attention to one of the most imposing problems for those of us who seek a sensible view of the relationship between spiritual growth and postmortem justice.  Brain states affect emotional and spiritual states.  Damage to certain sections of the brain can dramatically affect both our personality and character.  For example, a farmer in my first church had always been a harmless salt-of-the earth type of Christian.  Then he experienced a stroke which changed his personality.  He became much more crude,  More seriously, he sexually molested a young boy and had to serve a one-year prison sentence for doing so.  There was clearly a catalytic link between his stroke and his new immoral behavior.  But I don't believe that the changes in brain chemistry coerced either the soldier you mention or this farmer to commit his new violent acts.  They still retained their free will.  I assess their newfound decadence this way: 

The moral worth of our free will is a function of our capacity to resist contrary inclinations.  The more powerful these negative inclinations, the more morally valuable our resistance of the resulting impulses.  The military wound and the stroke created a profound spiritual test which both men failed, but might, with difficulty, have passed.

Consider the onset of Albert Einstein's senility in his old age.  I recently read about a physicist who had aspired most of his life to make a discovery that would impress his idol, Einstein.  Finally, he achieved his breakthrough and was scheduled to be formally honored by Einstein himself.  But Einstein's affirmation proved very hollow because, by this time, his growing dementia deprived him of his former capacity to fully appreciate the genious of our physicist's discovery. 

I have shared my experience of praying for a judge named Russ, who needed to seek reconciliation with his mother who was in the final stages of Alzheimer's Disease.  Every day Russ would station himself by his mother's bedside.  Russ was desperately depressed because his mother was now a mindless vegetable.  But after prayer, she became totally lucid and rational for 45 minutes and mother and son were granted a tear-filled reconciliation as they reaffirmed their mutual love one final time.  Immediately after this reconciliation, she passed away. 

I take this as an indication that, as our spirit disengages from our body, the neurological damage caused by such mental ailments can be reversed.  I don't believe discarnate spirits are still afflicted by the dementia of their final years.  In the afterlife, their core personality is the spirituality that they achieved when their evolving minds were still able to benefit from optimal mental alertness.  But I am not totally satisfied with this rationale, and so, I acknowledge that your raise an important spiritual issse that requires more research and thoughtful reflection.

Don
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #7 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 10:02pm
 
The problem becomes of course obvious when a personality change occurs after a brain damage. But it starts already with the fact that we are interweaved with this physical world, having a physical body which is constantly changing and receiving influences.
  What the purpose is of this sometimes odd occurances here, and who we truely are, I think we will not figure out as long as we are a part of the physical realm. If we believe that our personalities on earth are only a little part with narrowed view of something greater, then there is the possiblility, the hope that all these oddities could finally make sense in the great picture.

  Btw, I ask everyone to whom "free will" is a key factor for clarification what it means. Does it imply "not caused" or "for no reason"? If yes, then there are problems without end. If not, what is it then?

Spooky

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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #8 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 10:44pm
 
obviously when you consider that a soul has hundreds of incarnations, it is not bound by any particular brain or lack thereof.  there are stories of small children who are reincarnations of an old person, and certain parts of their personality do shine through, but obviously a lot of your personality is dictated by your body.  so i think personality is a mixture of the brain and the soul.
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DocM
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #9 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 11:15pm
 
The essence of the question on this thread can also be answered by figuring out which of these two statements is correct:

1.  Either the brain creates thoughts through electrochemistry/quantum effects on the physical plane as Western science postulates or,

2.  The brain is a receiver/transmitter much like a radio or two way radio, and spirit exists on a different interpenetrating plane.

Now, in order to interact on the physical plane we must communicate here.  We must process physical stimulation, the five senses we share, and assimilate the input into thought.  Then we must process the thoughts and create a response.  The response must then be translated into speech and action.

If the brain truly creates thought, then it is clear that damaging pieces of it could alter thinking and behaviour.  This is the Western scientists' take on things.  There is a center for speech, hearing, etc.  Damaging certain areas causes known aphasias or inabilitiies to do certain tasks.  Damage to Broca's area causes difficulties in expression - the inability to come up with a word or initiate speech.  However, everyone's disability is not predictable, and there is inconsistency to the damage seen on a CAT scan or MRI and the deficit in the patient's thinking.

However, if spirit existed in an overlapping dimension, and the brain was the main "radio receiver/transmitter" for thought/spirit, then damaging the brain could also affect thought and behaviour but in a different way.  If you damage a radio, you may hear static, or the bass or treble may be lost, or you may hear two radio stations instead of one.  Likewise, if the stroke or brain injury affected the brain as a receiver transmitter of spirit, untoward effects could be created.  You still could see the same effect in damaging Broca's area of the brain (trouble expressing words), but for a different reason.  In this case, Broca's area did not create the words/thought, but was the receiver area for expression of thought from spirit on an interpenetrating plane.

A scientist named Lashley performed numerous studies on rats.  In a rather cruel way, he took a hot heated probe and burned away different parts of the brain of rats after teaching them how to get through a maze for food.  To his surprise, even when large areas of the cerebral cortex were burned away, he found that the rats still retained some of their learning ability to do the task.  He could not isolate the memory of the maze to burning out one area of the brain:  From Wikipedia:

"his major work was done on the measurement of behavior before and after specific, carefully quantified, induced brain damage in rats. He trained rats to perform specific tasks, then lesioned varying portions of the rat cortex, either before or after the animals received the training. The amount of cortical tissue removed had specific effects on acquisition and retention of knowledge, but where in the cortex it was removed from had no effect on the rats performance in the maze. This lead Lashley to conclude that memories are not localized but widely distributed across the cortex.

By 1950, Lashley had distilled his research into two theories. The principle of "mass action" stated that the cerebral cortex acts as one—as a whole—in many types of learning. The principle of "equipotentiality" stated that if certain parts of the brain are damaged, other parts of the brain may take on the role of the damaged portion"


Lashley's experiments lend support to the idea that consciousness is not so easily identified as arising from a simple biological model of the brain.  To me, it lends support to the role of the brain as a transmitter/receiver of spirit, because many things can not be localized, and the brain does tend to function as a whole or adapt in many instances.

To get back to the changein personality with brain damage, I take a spiritual approach,and thus find myself in agreement with Don.  I do not believe that the physical damage created the anger/hate/negative personality -however, I do think it would lead to dysfunction of normal reception and transmission of spirit.  As such a person could become extremely frustrated and give in to these negative emotions after the damage.  

A slightly more sinister scenario is the possibility that brain damage might allow "lower energy" beings or spirits to have more sway and foster the negative personality of the affected soul. I certainly could not pretend to be an expert here, although some in spiritual circles speak of all of us as having positive and negative "hangers on," as it were trying to influence us all the time.

We see positive examples of people severely brain damaged or crushed in other ways (Down's syndrome children, Christopher Reeve) who overcame their physical tragedies and did not let that turn them into negative people.  So we know it can be done.

If I pursue thinking of brain damage as a spiritual interaction connecting with a damaged physical receiver/transmitter, we can see different levels of disengagementof the spirit with the physical plane.  Those in a vegetative state have such a damaged receiver/transmitter that little communication on earth is possible.  For some, like talking through a garbled walkie talkie or telephone, it may be so frustrating, that anger and vitriol are all that come out.

Thankfully, in my experience as a physician, I can say that this personality change Roger describes is fairly rare, so that for most of us, we remain to others who we have always been.

Matthew
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #10 - Sep 9th, 2007 at 11:26pm
 
[Spooky2:] "Btw, I ask everyone to whom "free will" is a key factor for clarification what it means. Does it imply "not caused" or "for no reason"? If yes, then there are problems without end. If not, what is it then?"
______________________________

A dice analogy is useful in clarifying the relevant distinctions.  A randomly tossed die will turn up a given number (e. g. 3) 1/6 of the time, given an infinite number of tosses.  These results would be purely random.  But suppose the die is loaded in favor of 3s and that ensuing tosses turn up 3s all the time.  Then the die's behavior is coerced.  Now suppose the die is loaded in favor of 3s but seldom produces 3s despite being repeatedly tossed in no special way.  These outcomes would be neither coerced nor random.  If the die were able to avoid 3s by conscious choice, it would by definition be doing so freely rather than randomly or coercively.  Free will then is a meaningless concept apart from contrary inclinations and can be defined as the capacity to make conscious choices which are not predetermined by prior contrary inclinations.

btw, Spooky2, you and I have something important in common: both of us chose to name ourselves after legendary members of this site--the legendary original Spooky and the original Berserk.  Do you know  what happened to these two fellows?  I'd like to contact them and find out why they no longer post here.

Seeker,

Yes, if you deem countless reincarnations a reliable doctrine, then character-altering brain damage is less of a problem.  But I reject this doctrine and the evidence of people like Michael Newton and Ian Stevenson that is invoked in support of it.  In my view, the best evidence alleged to support reincarnation is better explained in terms of either ESP or unconscious mergers with other discarnate spirits.  Let me give just two of the many reasons why I say this.

(1) Swedenborg's astral explorations produced the best verfications of any adept.  At first he was convinced that he was experiencing past life recall.  But as he explored the higher heavens, he discovered that his reincarnational interpretation was mistaken.  He was confusing unconscious mergers with undetected spirits with his own past life memories.  When discarnate spirits merge with ours, their memories are often mistaken as our own.  Swedenborg's discarnate spirits from the higher heavens then descended to the lower reincarnational hollow heavens and offered to demonstate this misunderstanding.  But the denizens of these regions were far too "stuck" in their reincarnational doctrine to tolerate such a demonstration.

(2) Ian Stevenson has produced impressive cases of past life recall in young children.  That is, his research is impressive until its several flaws are exposed.  For example, in at least two cases the alleged "prior personality" was still alive for a considerable period EVEN AFTER it supposedly reincarnated in the new baby.  What we have here is a type of possession or soul merger rather than reincarnation.  These exception support Swedenborg's refutation.  I have discussed the other weaknesses of Stevenson's research in other posts and won't repeat them here.

Don
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Rondele
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #11 - Sep 10th, 2007 at 11:30am
 
Thanks for the replies.

I wonder if it's the same case with a Jeffrey Dahmer or Chas. Manson, assuming they had no brain injuries or birth abnormalities?

Newton goes into much detail in explaining the extensive preparations that are made by helpers before we incarnate.  Supposedly these helpers try to ensure that we are born to the right parents, with the right amount of spiritual energy, such that our life goals are maximized.  If, for instance, an entity is weak or easily frightened or intimidated, the helpers ensure that he/she is born into a supportive, loving environment and with lots of spiritual energy.

Problem is, if that's really true, these helpers are apparently falling down on the job.  Consider those countries undergoing genocide either now or in the past.  Cambodia in the past, or some of the African countries now.  Hundreds of thousands of people were brutally slaughtered, including women and infants. 

If what Newton says is really true, someone like Pol Pot or Stalin would not have been allowed to incarnate in the first place.  Supposedly the helpers have intimate knowledge of the soul that is about to incarnate, and can also stop a soul from incarnating if they perceive the incarnation will cause harm. 

After giving this whole thing lots of thought, I agree with Don re. reincarnation.  I doubt it exists.  There are too many reasons why it doesn't, including the obvious.....the explosive population growth of the earth.  From a strictly mathematical standpoint, it just isn't possible.  Unless, of course, most of us had previous lives on other planets.....Smiley

Btw re. Einstein, I'm currently reading the excellent biography done by Walter Isaacson.  At some point in Einstein's life, he concluded that mathematics will unravel the secrets of the universe whereas when he was younger, he didn't think that branch of study was all that fruitful.

So, I'm wondering.....does anyone think that mathematics will someday prove the existence of the afterlife?  Or if not, does anyone think that the existence of the afterlife will ever be proven at all??

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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #12 - Sep 10th, 2007 at 9:38pm
 
Berserk2:

  Free will:
Your dice example is not really satisfying me. I reformulate: Imagine a person in a situation which requires a decision of this person. This person has many options, but has to chose only one. Now this person can act against all expectations (your die example). But this decision, no matter which one this person choses, is influencend by the situation this person is in, by the person's history, by it's spiritual state, maybe (if you like to consider this) by divine inspiration. If so, the so-called free will is dependant on all these causes / reasons and then the "free" part of will is just an empty term, as this person's will is part of the chain of cause and effect. On the other hand, a truely free will would be independent of any cause or reason, but this would mean chaos. So, I still think the term "free will" does not say much.

  original Berserk, original Spooky:
I'm not sure how to interprete your question.
If I'd take it literally, I'd had to say spooky2 is identical to spooky. I had to switch to this new name after a board crash, and I am thinking Berserk2 is identical to Berserk, as both's name is Don, and style and interests are the same; am I wrong? 
Now, the other way to interprete and answer your question is, what is identity, and are we the same as back then? And if not, if we have changed, what is the past then, and who are we now? Bertold Brecht had this little story:
  Mr. Keuner met an old mate after a long time. His mate said: "Wow, you haven't changed a bit!" and Mr. Keuner turned pale.
  So, maybe you can't contact the old Spooky as he had changed, or you can, as here he is, depending on what you meant with your question.


Rondele:

It all boils down to this:
  If there is a plan for each life which includes foreseeing everything, then, of course, everything would just happen exactly according to the plan. Maybe a soul is then only "inserted" and cannot intervene, but only experience/observate.
  If not everything could be foreseen, then simply unforeseen things will happen.

  When mathematicians have appropriate data, they can make a calculus and go to work. Then it is only a question of the capacity of those super-calculators who may be somewhere in the spirit world. The question is, IF there are usable data to process.


Spooky
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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #13 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 12:20am
 
[Spooky2:] Imagine a person in a situation which requires a decision of this person. This person has many options, but has to chose only one. Now this person can act against all expectations (your die example). But this decision, no matter which one this person choses, is influencend by the situation this person is in, by the person's history, by it's spiritual state, maybe (if you like to consider this) by divine inspiration. If so, the so-called free will is dependant on all these causes / reasons and then the "free" part of will is just an empty term.
____________________________________________________________________

But Spooky2, you are merely providing examples of what might shape one's "contrary inclinations--influence from current situation, personal history, and spiritual state.  If any of these factors determine your decisions, then by definition you are not free.  If I can routinely (if not always) choose contrary to my current spiritual state, the brain-washing of my historical conditioning, and the incentive of my present situation, then by definition my behavior is neither random or coerced.  Since it is nevertheless conscious, then the only alternative is that my choice contrary to what would be predicted must be free.  

I think America's "worst" mass murderer is a case in point.  Tim McVeigh was by all accounts a respectful and decent young man, an altar boy in his church, a good worker for the local Burger King, and loving and courteous towards the gals he dated.  He grew up near my former residence.  So I was able to glean many details about what he was really like from his former friends and even an ex-girlfriend.  Yet clearly, at some unknown point, he freely made some very bad decisions that transformed his character in an evil direction.  

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Re: Who Are We- Brain or Spirit?
Reply #14 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 5:15am
 
I think the post by "Doc M" is to the point, although I'm going to argue with you, Matthew.

The issue is not necessarily dichotomous - William James wrestled with the same issue and came up with the notion of an epiphenomenon, a correlated action not causally linked by necessity or sufficiency to another correlated event or action.

Using Amy Noether's theorem to imply that if something is conserved, it implies a law of some sort, then epiphenomenal events imply a common causal factor removed from consideration. I'll give one of many examples...

Imagine reality as the product of a Yin and a Yang, interacting in all possible ways at all possible rates, so as to generate our world as it is. (That creaking sound is generations of offended Taoists rotating in their crypts.) In such a world, three events with no immediate association might occur, such that until traced back to the initial Yin and Yang, no association could be found. Thus, the "third path".

To relate this to Spooky's question about "free will", information evolves by forming sets of prior data, then sets opf those sets etc, a process called an "iterated complexion" (or "iterated power set" if you prefer). Chooice is fully regulated by feedback under conditioning, even to the extent that it involves injury etc. So "free of what?" is a good question. I suggest that we learn, apply our knowledge, and make decisions just that way, in full accord with the principles of chemistry, physics and conditioning.

Now, step back a moment and look at who is really asking the question. Your ultimate nature shares in the present moment with all of us, but can be traced back to a singular event at which all were (and still are) one. To act in the "Person" of that One, sometimes called dedicating your works to God (but there's a lot of social freight on that idea!), is to become one with the causal principle that is, today, here and now, expanding the universe. To view this from the viewpoint of an isolated individual is to accept conditioning. On that basis, I'd suggest that God has free will, and to the degree that we accept that we are God, so do we, but not otherwise. (Now see if they're piling firewood around the stake ... Tongue) It's like a roller coaster ride, except that you don't want to fall off.

dave
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