hawkeye wrote on Aug 24^th, 2007 at 2:58pm:

Hi Joe good question. this will be my disclaimer so I do not get roasted on a theological fire that I express opinions while I try to keep to my feelings of love to be on this board.

I see JC as like all humans, only he was a very old soul with many projection fingers into the Earth and the rest of us came along later to get our own experiences. In some metaphysical reading I found JC to have possessed other names in different time periods and have come to see my own lives and so I believe he did not have a single life in which to accomplish what we term miracles such as the resurrection.
I see a probe as a unit of consciousness, that we all come to probe the earth plane. I see a projection, an intelligent unit of consciousness and a probe as basically the same idea. Another useful term is "I am" consciousness.
Such as was found in the bible, when God said "I am that I am."

If this thread turns into an argument I will not be on it, as I do not wish to rock anyone's boat or upset anyone. my love for the man/god is as strong as any of yours and I do not wish to be measuring my love up against anyone elses as it's not important. time is of the essence. we can spend it better in harmony with one another.

that JC is/was god, that we too are god should be self evident, as the one thing I remember from JC's teachings which stayed with me my entire life was that we WILL do the things he has done. The time is now. How to align ourselves with Christ then?
if we accept him as our model. don't forget there are other great beings who can be used as models. How to feel we can see eye to eye with one so great, is to remember JC said "I and the Father are One."  Did he say I am the only one on this planet who is one with the Father?"  No. for the father is not a man, but the father is Light/Pul/order. or what we call Christed consciousness after the ego drops away or is shed. or I should say the errors of the ego, which might be spiritual pride.

its just that he's one of our elder brothers. your question whether JC set out to die for our sins, first we should see sins as errors, then we understand better that judgment of sins is not ours to do. so we need new language. It may be true he came as a sacrifice, to be the lamb, but more than that we did need to know, and we still need to know that we are immortal beings who are under the impression that death is real, simply because we have forgotten our true homes in order to experience this place called Earth vacation/learning/proving grounds, a place where we can learn how to do miracles. I'm sure theres other planets, places, where miracles are entirely not needed! there will come a day miracles will be commonplace, but no less gratefully recieved.
so the resurrection is not really a miracle. JC, a part of god, like you and me, a part of god is one of the wayshowers who points out the body is nothing here. death is not real, but that we hold it over the heads of others to gain control of them, by an ego which is error.

Did he come to sacrifice? But isn't that what love does? would you not jump in a raging river to save your own child from drowning? that is what love does if it's true. you would die for your child the same. the difference between JC and us is he came and depicted a death scene, for a whole nation of peoples, while you and I would die for our children but we're not likely to die for a whole nation's causes. so that makes him complete and whole and Christed and free to not return in flesh unless he chose to do that, and thats rather doubtful so a misinterpretation of when he said he would return, it was his spirit, the holy spirit he left behind to take care of things. Like the SuperMind idea, the oneness premise.
I just spoke with him the other day (I'm making this up gladly) and as a man, he is upset that Christians think he's the only one made a contribution around here spiritually speaking. He thinks worship of him has gone awry to produce less striving in the soul, as after all, he's coming back to whip things in shape, right? wrong.

we are to align with him, if we choose him to be pure PUL manifest. perfect love, but there are other teachers of PUL because none of us are truly separated from God, but that we think we are less than.

I didn't mean to sound like a lecturer and I see Joe as very evolved and I see this board in a very loving way; I often choke up with the beauty I see expressed on this board and it's like god is viewing thru my eyes and this vessel cannot contain the whole of god efficiently, so you will see me as one in error sometimes.
I see this board as a sign of the shift in consciousness, where we step away from religious tenets ever so slowly into the more unlimited vistas of self creation that the masters in times past demonstrated.

love to all I have great hopes and you are all my family, where I used to be so alone.

As for Moses I see him as not very spiritually evolved at all. Just read some of his laws and actions in the first books of the OT... not someone I want to take as my example thanks. [I mean things like death for people who decide to worship a diffferent God or who work on the Sabbath, or even for childen who disobey their parents; or encouraging genocide in the holy land just because he thought God had promised it to his tribe instead - who had been in Egypt for some 500 years or so - and doing things like telling his warriors to kill everyone in an enemy tribe but keep the virgin girls for themselves].

Also, going back to the original question - if you go by the mainstream churches, Jesus IS God, so you can't really see it in terms of God making him do something.. Not that I believe that of course. He is God the Son, and has always existed. The fact he incarnated into a physical body at a point in history apparently doesn't change that.

Perhaps my confusion around religion and God/Christ come from my education of them. It came from watching TV at Christmas and Easter. You know the movies. Miracles that were interrupted by tampon and beer comericals. Parting of the Red Sea then pass a "Bud" please, or "it's got wings". Its not a wonder that it (christen religion) all seams like a bedtime story made up so as to sell something to someone. Well up to this point I haven't decided to put my money down. To me, the product looks like it might still get recalled. I think I might wait for the "new and improved" version. Or better yet, perhaps I can order a sample and try it out first before buying in.
Joe

Some personal (and still evolving) thoughts on what's a very interesting topic.  Please pardon the indulgence.

First the question of how God can allow unpleasant events to occur. A lot depends on your particular framework of belief, but my sense is that it's an inevitable consequence of our having been given free will and the fact that we seem in this existence to have somehow become separated from God. (attested to by the fact that for most of us it's such a struggle to restore communication so that we are open to receiving continuous and accurate intuitive guidance)

The resulting trial and error process that is all our lives means that errors, wrongdoing and the consequent pain mixed with limited and transient pleasure are inevitable.

It's not that clear  whether or not as is theorised by various traditions that it was set up that way to be a learning school for souls, or a means for God to experience himself in action, or just an unfortunate accident where the chunk of awareness that became the collective of all beings in this reality somehow accidentally slipped into the dream of an independent existence and forgot God. Or something else entirely.

Leading to some traditions holding the view that there's no learning to be done (since God knows all anyway), that all we have to do is drop the ego (big ask = instant death of self), and that this idea of a learning path is just a kite flown by the ego to divert us into thinking we can only get back after lifetimes upon lifetimes of slog. (others of course teach or imply that this is the case - but both I guess may simultaneously be true)

There's not necessarily a devil, at least not as an initiator of the whole show. We're well able to do plenty of harm and cause plenty of pain on our own by our unwise and incompassionate actions in our state of disconnection from God. Even our insatiable urge to individuality, our bottomless greed for material things and  as a result building ever more complexity and layers into existence takes us further from God - obvious if you view God as unity.

It's not by accident that too much thought/too much mental activity (the inevitable result of this) blocks our connection to God. This leading to hermits, monastic traditions, the need for simplification of life and the like and begs serious questions as to the compatibility  of our technological/commercially driven lifestyle with the spiritual path. The concept of an independent and objectively existing devil maybe amounts to an egotistical refusal to accept responsibility for all of this.

That doesn't mind you mean that negative entities have not over the aeons of history been formed by the minds/souls or intentions of the many who have slipped further from God than most. And subsequently grew in strength through misplaced prayer, worship and belief of others to become something which while still very much subservient to God we'd have trouble distinguishing from the mythical devil of conventional religion.

The good news I guess is that it's fairly clear that while our base animal instincts always drive us into selfishness and away from God (doing ever more harm to others as we go, and as we develop technological capability) that Grace/higher mind exerts an opposing pull too. Which gets stronger as we raise our consciousness - to the point where eventually we become incapable of acting out of anything but wisdom and compassion/of doing anything but God's will.

This seems to manifest too in the way this reality operates. The law of attraction being an example. Love bringing love and aggression bringing aggression and violence into our lives being maybe the most basic. Although it's incredible how subtly it acts to even in our current life reflect what we put out. 'As ye sow so shall ye reap' is perhaps the greatest indicator that there's a Divine plan - whether or not it's a rescue mission for beings gone wrong, or the plan from the start or more likely the whole lot all at once.

It seems to me that while the law of attraction is often something fundamental (divine law or karma in action) and proceeds regardless of whether we are conscious of it or not that there is an egotistical attraction process which is quite different.

This latter is grasping. (chasing after what we consciously consider pleasurable or attractive and ducking pain)  That's ego driven personal action or manifestation of free will, and as such only a subset of or an initiator in the great web of cause and consequence which determines our experience. Buddism teaches that ALL pain and suffering flow from egotistical grasping - that grasping blocks higher knowing or maybe you could say (Buddhism does not per se) Divine guidance.. Put in other words - God won't force your compliance, but we all eventually will realise through life experience  that happiness follows from alignment of our will with that of God.

It's possible to square the question of 'how does a loving God allow free will and the resulting error and pain in the world'. The similie is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle as used to describe the structure of an atom. This at my simple level says that while from our perspective a block of wood remains unchangingly a block of wood (subject only to natural decay) the atoms which comprise it are in a state of continuous change - that you can't ever predict where all of the electrons (and other particles?) are at a given moment. Not only that, but these particles assume differing forms depending on how you observe them. (sometimes behaving like particles, sometimes like rays) So best of all - the intentions of the observer (little old us) influence what's going on at the atomic level.(the likes of Gary Zukav ans Fritjof Capra have written beautifully about this (which is now mainstream particle physics) and it's implications for spirituaility.

You might argue it's a leap too far to take this to the God/Cosmos level but here goes. God is an absolute reality. Omnipresent, no time, no space, all knowing, all loving. The viewer of the unchanging block of wood which is the cosmos from His perspective - an observer who can influence events within that block at the micro level without changing it's form as a block of wood. It doesn't seem that big a jump for us all our rushing around and our little advances and reverses to be the equivalent of the atoms flying around in the block of wood.

So that viewed at a point in our time things can be up, or things could be down but ultimately there's only one possible outcome. (the Divine equivalent of the unchanging block of wood) So basically free will  and Godly intervention are possible within this reality - even  a degree of apparently random or non pre-destined action - without the outcome being in doubt.

The bit I find tough is the question of where its all going in our lifetimes. Lots of us feel that it can't go on, but then that's always been a feature of the beliefs of spiritual traditions and yet we're still here. I guess none of this necessarily requires magical happenings in the run up to 2012. Even if stuff is happening it may as we've discussed before be so gradual at our level of incredibly fine detail (years and a precise location vs. aeons and the total Cosmos) as to only be obvious to the very sensitive and aware. It very possibly won't even be apparent to those who haven't wakened a little yet.

Worst of all I'm not convinced that the sort of complex discussion I've just tabled and am drawn towards has for the reason above any ability to assist us on our path. Additional understanding may dissolve fears which block progress, but the additional mental churn is almost certainly a negative factor.

This thread has shown that the issues relative to how we live can be tackled at all sorts of levels. Laffing for example operates at a much more human and personal level - and is probably all the more effective an influencer of others to the good for that. Maybe we'd all do better if we just disappeared off into the desert and stopped feeding those minds!!! ( that's an invite to responses! )

Love to you all....

ian

yes Orlando, I do believe you are a quick minded individual who grasps simple principle.
it may boil down to having faith, such a nasty word that has become, I'm sorry for that, but faith is beyond believing and we have to have a belief first.
it may be to have faith in one another as god is not starkly visible on this earth, unless one looks into their heart. its just that there are so many commercials here. distractions. I mean in the world. this board has got their commercials too, but we usually get around to the nitty gritty sooner or later 

I'm aware if we all could see spirits, or talk to them, we would have our proof we do survive death and this knowledge would thrust us into the new age all the faster as a whole, but we have to be satisfied with the little progress we can make by sharing our experiences, dreams, and desires, and by reading books too. I spoke with spirits at age 18 but it is something not generally accepted, still I have to talk about it, and we all have to talk or we get nowhere at all, as a whole.

Vajra, I'm reading Destiny of Souls now by Newton, I told Oliver I was earlier and it is opening up some thought about these other levels of spirit, where we go upon transition according to many voices in the book, not just Newton. so hard to define, the non physical, but you did a good job with the block of wood and the particles within the wood idea. along with that what I'm picking up on is the order of the universe, upon transition there is an exquisite order, there are currents, I too have experienced the currents of movement within obe, and within an NDE, where an aspect of myself died. so I enjoy the book and recommend it to explorers. frequently the voyagers experience awe at the largeness of the space and how they gravitate each towards their own group whom they immediately recognize, that is the best part of all and I found this to be true during my NDE, we will gravitate with no effort there, its like the disc idea presented here.
its like having a luxury auto without having to make the payments! with the top down!

I assure you, on the ride itself there were no intellectual assignments....

love to all, I only read you partially tonite Vajra, but you  certainly come up with a lot of concepts I like to look at later. love, alysia