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Why is it so hard to scientifically prove Spirit? (Read 8917 times)
vajra
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Re: Why is it so hard to scientifically prove Spir
Reply #15 - Jul 24th, 2007 at 5:59am
 
Think maybe as Spooky says it all bends into itself. That a complete explanation ultimately requires some sort of unity or all knowingness.

As in you need a reasonably accurate view of the nature of that part of the the total reality you are working in (bearing in mind that our internal landscape is a part of the same reality as the external) to design an experimental method which is correct - which takes proper account of all of the variables.

And you need an open mind - what passes for this in science at present generally has so much invested in defending (or being seen to defend) a partial view of reality that it can't (won't) open to  perceive the big picture.   

And so by definition it cannot conceive of a correct (or at least a comprehensive)  methodology. Put another way - if you don't ask the right questions, you can't hope to get the answers that matter.

Part of this is just fine, and 100% supported by scientific method. It's clear that gaining an understanding of reality is a sort of a catch 22 problem - you need to know the answer (the unity or all knowingness above) to get the design of the experimental method exactly right.

Which means that it's inevitable that our (conscious) understanding can only be partial, and can only unfold through trial, error and proving/disproving of incomplete trial hypotheses using methods which at times will be based on wrong assumptions.

The bit that's quite another issue, and is surely the critical enabler is that of openness of mind. Openness does not mean naivety or inability to be logical. It just means an ability to rest easily and allow our innate intelligence to work without ego driven grasping - without denying or trying to force fit conceptual theories to the evidence. (these theories could be as much happy clappy belief in the insupportable, as a fear based insistence that the world runs on the dog eat dog principle or the above refusal of science to open to the possibility of certain wider realities)

The closed mindedness is in my experience nothing to do with scientific method per se, and everything to do with the culture which has grown up around research and academia which decides in a really aggressive way what sort of view is respectable, and what is not. No serious academic can for example be seen to even entertain 'wrong' views - it would finish his career.

Which I guess explains why Buddhism teaches right from day one (in the four noble truths)  that egotistical grasping leads to the delusion which is right at the root of our unhappiness.

From a very old and i think rather lovely teaching called the Dhammapada which kind of hits the nail on the head:

We are what we think
All that we are arises with our thoughts
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.

We are what we think
All that we are arises with our thoughts
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with a pure mind
And happiness will follow you
As your shadow, unshakable.....

contd.

More here: http://www.angelfire.com/ca/SHALOM/dhammapada.html

One of the most powerful ways this works must surely be to block the ability of many to open to even  the possibility that there are greater realities in play than a simplistic Newtonian competing separate selves/dog eat dog take on reality admits - this opening is the door to the spiritual path, the eventual seeing that the world actually runs on love  and all that that entails.

This opening is surely the most important step possible for all of humanity, representing it does no less than the restoration of communication with Spirit/God/the true nature of mind or whatever. It's the source of the intuition or knowing (wisdom and compassion)  that's needed to balance the self interest driven drive to destruction of ourselves and our planet that so many are engaged in.

My own experience says that once you open life finds ways to bring all sorts of 'proof' into your awareness, but that until you do you simply are not capable of picking up the signals. It's probably not by accident that this most fundamental of choices is not forced upon us, which probably goes some way to explaining why it's so unprovable if you're not in that space yet.......

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« Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2007 at 7:55am by N/A »  
 
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LaffingRain
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Re: Why is it so hard to scientifically prove Spir
Reply #16 - Jul 24th, 2007 at 12:41pm
 
Vajra said: And so by definition it cannot conceive of a correct (or at least a comprehensive)  methodology. Put another way - if you don't ask the right questions, you can't hope to get the answers that matter.
____

I'd say thats right on Vajra and I found this true in gathering paranormal experiences in involuntary manner.
involuntary experiences of the inner psyche is different than setting an intention and gaining that way.

I'm just beginning to figure this out. we all want to explore outside the box. some of us want to do retrievals, others want to talk to a deceased loved one, others want to escape the boxed in thinking we can get in of endless mind chatter that goes nowhere by it's nature.

asking the right question. it would seem, I believe this is correct, that there is always an answer attached to the question, so we speak of faith.
here's an example of asking the right question from personal experience in hopes that other's can relate;

but to diverge slightly, it has been brought to my attention we can talk endlessly in circles, but only true stories of personal experience seem to perk up a board and invite heart to heart correspondence, so thats my purpose, although I really should go outside today and bring my book (yesterday dear ones, a butterfly landed on the book I was holding to my astonishment! then it flew away and came back once more.

just trying to make a point we overlook the small things in life which can bring us great joy. me thinks the scientist would have rational explanation for the butterfly landing on top of my book as I held it in my hands, and if the explanation was logical, still I decided to keep the joy and never mind the logic in this instance.

I asked the right question which brought about  a chapter in my book titled Future self Meets Denial.
As a person who desired to do OBES, I am like Bruce, I tried very hard to do it as it had been reported; I would try for awhile then give up in frustration then return to this most curious experience with all its attendant sensations. I didn't even know I was asking the right question and so I called it involuntary, but now I know it was a setting of intention within the unconscious mind through desire. and curiosity.

I simply pondered what it would be like to be stationed directly above my body and be able to turn and view the physical body in a 3 dimensional view, not in a mirror, but 3 dimensional. AHA! my higher self we can call it, or future self, the part of me lives outside of linear time responded that I had at last asked the right question; but "she" interpreted the question to mean I wanted to know myself.
she did me one better, gave me more than I asked for. she showed up in person.
if you can imagine two of you in the room looking into each other's eyes, one was perfect, one was flawed, you get the picture.
haha! I told her to buzz off, my own self I told her she made me uncomfortable. lol. how she puts up with me, I'll never know, but since she is me and I am her, she is compassionate towards me.
she told me she had been wanting to meet me for a long while and expressed joy that I had not the capacity for. then.
so I got to see the nature of duality face to face in form and 3 dimensional. more than I asked for but operating from some wisdom in the universe available to all.

I think the right question must always be Who Are We? and that will always be very personal and by nature we will sometimes react in defensiveness if another asks us this question.
I figure if we stop reacting to life defensively and do what you said, to think of all the variables within an experiment, I call that cognitive thinking because there are so many possibilities in our world to explore, and considering them all is like preparing ourselves for greater adventures.

love, alysia
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juditha
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Re: Why is it so hard to scientifically prove Spir
Reply #17 - Jul 24th, 2007 at 3:53pm
 
Hi EliteNYC I dont understand science much but if a spirit bit a skeptic scientist on the arse he still wouldnt beleive.

Love and God bless  Love juditha

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vajra
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Re: Why is it so hard to scientifically prove Spir
Reply #18 - Jul 24th, 2007 at 5:22pm
 
Grin That's great Juditha. I had you figured for a slightly serious and proper lady but that's clearly only the tip of the iceberg.....

Chogyam Trungpa (the Tibetan Rinpoche who established the Shambhala network of Buddhist centres) talked of our cocoon. Others call it the goldfish bowl. Created as a result of the fact that our ego will perceive only selectively and in accordance with what it wants us to see. It ignores the big picture so that we can only ever see what we (it) want to see.

Opening entails  coming to see beyond this cocoon. And it's taught that this can't be achieved through conventional effort - that the harder we try, the more the ego resists and keeps on putting up the mirage.

Meditation is an important tool in this regard, because in practicing 'not doing' we calm the mind so the ego lowers its guard.

But seeing truth is is sometimes taught as being like sitting in a chair watching a mouse inching out of his hole out of the corner of your eye - if you look directly at him he'll notice and bolt.

Life unfolds
As time rolls out
While certain we decide the script
We circle endlessly in ego’s grip....

In other words if the ego realises we are seeing what it doesn't want it drops the shutters. And in this state we can't see and so can't possibly ask the right question.

Magical moments of seeing like yours with the butterfly Alysia seem often to happen this way when we are relaxed and the guard is down. I guess you are saying as well that as well as needing to stay open to ask the right question that asking the right question can help open us.

Hoping i'll eventually loosen up enough to get a visit like your guide....



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orlando123
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Re: Why is it so hard to scientifically prove Spir
Reply #19 - Aug 3rd, 2007 at 12:11pm
 
EliteNYC wrote on Jul 19th, 2007 at 12:00am:
Almost all of our knowledge today comes from this method...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

I was just wondering why a spiritual activity, such as astral projection, is so hard to prove scientifically?  



Good point and good example. If some people are genuinely able to go out of their bodies and visit other locations in this world, this should be very easy to prove and someone should have done so by now I fear. Even if just to claim james randi's 1m dollar prize. If, on the other hand, they just claim to visit "astral worlds" then no one can prove if these exist outside their imaginations or not. Sorry to be blunt about it, but that's the situation as I see it.
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orlando123
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Re: Why is it so hard to scientifically prove Spir
Reply #20 - Aug 3rd, 2007 at 12:13pm
 
the_seeker wrote on Jul 19th, 2007 at 12:58am:
the afterlife experiments seems to prove that (some) psychics are real.  so why doesn't the scientific community accept such proof?  because of their bias, of course.  it's the same reason people wouldn't believe that the earth revolved around the sun, or that the earth was round.  


I expect this is true to an extent (though not ALL scientists are opposd to research into spiritual or psi matters) but I can;t help but think that if someone could consistently go out of his or her body in this world then this could fairly easily be proved beyong any doubt and such a person would be keen to do so.

I mean - for example, the person could be supervised in a locked room, they could then go into a trance and visit another room/building/country/ etc and come back and report on something that was happenning /being displayed etc there. This, maybe repeated a few times, would be solid proof. It would then be up to the scientsist to admit something amazing was going on and that they would have to adjust their theories , or find a new one, to incorporate it.
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orlando123
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Re: Why is it so hard to scientifically prove Spir
Reply #21 - Aug 3rd, 2007 at 12:16pm
 
LaffingRain wrote on Jul 19th, 2007 at 2:20am:
or the force. whatever. something out there loves us.



I like to hear of this "PUL" in accounts of NDEs etc, but if this is the case why does this "something"allow so much pain and injustice and suffering to go on? Or is it not as omnipotent as we have been led to believe? Even moving away from humans, a natural world where animals each each other alive to survive is not good evidence of PUL..
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