Conversation Board - Question about reincarnation

maze

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Question about reincarnation
Jul 6^th, 2007 at 1:39pm

Hello!
I´m new here and registered mainly because of this question... I`m not perfect in english but I hope you understand...

I`m not sure can anyone give me clear answers...

I`m really confused about this reincarnation thing...If I had have about 10 lifetimes on this earth and when I die does that mean that those persons I have been once does not exist anymore??? And when I reincarnate again into someone else does that mean that this person who I am now does not exist anymore??? What about my loved ones?? When they decide to reincarnate and then die and come back to spirit realm in another person does that mean that my loved ones are gone forever????

I have to say that it`s really depressing if it goes like that way....

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dave_a_mbs

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #1 - Jul 6^th, 2007 at 3:04pm

HI Maze-
There is exceptionally little research in this area. I'll try to summarize what I know, and others will doubtless add their own interpretations.

One researcher has pretty well proven that systems with internal information flow, like people who are thinking, or groups that are working in an area of research, create new information by first accumulating whatever is known, and then by combining it in every possible way. There is good (philosophical) reason to believe that the physical world evolves in a similar manner, by accumulation of the properties of reality, and then recombining them in every possible way, so that the universe keeps expanding, and actually is accelerating (slightly) in its expansion. This type of theory suggests that everything can be reduced to cycles of self-generation. The physicist David Boehm suggested that this could be called the "implicate order" (what we have) that forms the "explicate order" what it becomes. Among other interesting things, this type of theory is fractal, meaning that it generates itself over and over, as it projects itself into new areas.

As a result, this type of theory suggests that when we die, the valid aspects of our existence remain in the world where they continue to combine with reality, producing echoes of our former life. At the same time, the "persona", the primary location of the information flow that is associated with each of us, is superposed onto the surrounding reality in various ways, so that both reality and the "persona" are supported. As an example, many people look into the sky and see faces in the forms that clouds exhibit as they billow across the sky. The faces are a superposition. The "persona" seems to stick to its reality in a somewhat similar manner.

Because the residual information and activity defining the personal viewpoint slightly alter the probabilities by which things combine, they lead to changes that tend to reinforce their presence. This leads to a tendency to be reborn - and it appears that this eventually becomes 100% certainty, even if we wish to stay dead. An exception is the person who has detached from all earthly attachments and desires, who is then able to stay forever in "heaven" - at one with the entirety of reality.

Reports from past life regressions tend to indicate that this cycle occurs more or less as a natural sequence of events. Those parts of our reality that are valid persist. Those parts that are invalid, or self-contradictory, eventually self-destruct. Thus, the valid aspects of ourselves and our friends remain, while the squabbles and hassles tend to die away. This tendency for invalid relationships to cancel themselves out is the essence of karma, and is a simple cause and effect process, nothing mysterious. Often, regressions will discover that those close to us in this lifetime are old friends with whom we've shared many lifetimes, and many different roles.

If you read some of Bruce's material you will get a god idea of the kinds of problems the dying person experiences, and the kinds of self-delusional traps that occasionally they fall into. Some of them are ridiculous. These are caused by attachments, such as pride, desire, hatred, guilt or other strong emotions. When the attachments are removed, the person goes on into the rest of the "afterlife experience", and eventually to rebirth.

My personal suggestion is to stick around and join in the ongoing discussion, and to develop your own abilities to do retrievals of stuck souls. This will both broaden your awareness, and also generate merit by which you can't help but advance.

dave

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hawkeye

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #2 - Jul 6^th, 2007 at 3:18pm

Hi Maze, I believe that the being you are never dies, it only changes through having lived the lives you mention of. So when you say you die, only the vehicle, namely your body, dies. Who YOU are will always exist. This includes all your loved ones, friends and everone else whether human, animal, plant, etc. It is my belief that you will at some point see and be reunited with all whom you love and love you. Forever is time related, and time only exists within the confines of Physical Reality, of which you are experiencing during this lession of life experience.

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Kyo_Kusanagi

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #3 - Jul 6^th, 2007 at 4:30pm

maze wrote on Jul 6^th, 2007 at 1:39pm:

I`m really confused about this reincarnation thing...If I had have about 10 lifetimes on this earth and when I die does that mean that those persons I have been once does not exist anymore??? And when I reincarnate again into someone else does that mean that this person who I am now does not exist anymore??? What about my loved ones?? When they decide to reincarnate and then die and come back to spirit realm in another person does that mean that my loved ones are gone forever???? I have to say that it`s really depressing if it goes like that way....

It's quite the contrary. In truth, the depression (which is always caused by a misunderstanding of the Universal Laws or some aspect of the truth of the matter) is turned around (Byron Katie says, only you can enlighten yourself, via the true meaning of your thoughts, feelings and ideas... turn each of them around, and ask yourself what does each teach you?) to Joy.

If you've had 10 lifetimes, or 10 million lifetimes on this Earth, on other planets, even in other past universes before this one, when you die (which you don't, ever. it's only the physical body and various energy bodies, which are transformed and transmuted, see even they don't 'die', much less the true you, the soul, by its very definition the eternal 'I am'), the (essence, totality, simultaneity of the) person that you once were, is every bit 100% the same as the (essence, totality, simultaneity of the) person that you are now (ie. after death).

In fact, upon death, you are so much more. It's quite the contrary, the real difficulty of 'incompleteness' and 'memory loss' of ALL whom you are (ie. all lives and existences combined, not merely those from the past, but also across individual manifestations of your own soul beyond time) is when you're in a physical body in any specific lifetime. The joy of reclaiming who (all) you are, occurs naturally after death (this is not by any purposeful design, at least not directly; but a mere consequence of the mechanism of physical incarnation vs extraphysical existence).

Imagine - all the memories, the joys, the dreams, the aspirations, the emotions, the experiences, the interactions, the RELATIONSHIPS, the love, all of these from all your many different lifetimes, as each and every man and woman you've been, as human and as extraterrestrial, as intraphysical and as extraphysical, etc. *ALL* OF THESE (BEINGS, IN THEIR ENTIRETY) ARE WITHIN YOU, INSEPARABLY AND FOREVER A PART OF YOURSELF.

They can never die, because you (and whom really are you, once you've realized a higher level of truth via evolution in exactly an analogous way to the waking up to greater clarity after death of a lifetime, but ultimately, essentially, totally and simultaneously God Her/Him/Them/OurSelves) are eternal. A simple truth.

AND SO IT IS EXACTLY (but of course) FOR EACH AND ALL YOUR LOVED ONES. They are eternal, in infinitely more ways than they might realize. When you (truly!) love someone, it is not only the physical shell or even this particular lifetime that you're loving, but ALL of her/his/their past lives, personalities (for true love is *unconditional*), existences and everything and everything that they are, have been, OR WILL BE. Always & Forever.

Quote:

When they decide to reincarnate and then die and come back to spirit realm in another person does that mean that my loved ones are gone forever????

Hahahaa!

I/We hope you see the silliness in that question for yourself, and may you be able to laugh at it for *yourself* (for we are certainly not laughing at you, but at the silliness of the concept. Still, misconceptions can cause pain, all of which is completely unnecessary. And that is what makes it really tragic, yet simultaneously (to laugh or to cry? let's do both) laughable.)

Your loved ones are never gone forever, only that you (or for some of them, even themselves) forget themselves, other aspects, lifetimes, levels or eternal existence of themselves. If you can recognize the beauty, truth, totality of themselves, seeing within and through their eyes, ALL they've ever been (all their past lives, all their past life relationships with yourself/yourselves), and ALL they'll ever be in all infinity of the future, then you've seen Love. You've (been willing to) see/seen their true Self / that which is yourSelf, for Love is the Realization of Oneness, between *all* themselves and *all* their past/future existences, and between *all* themselves and *all* yourself.

And time (including lifetimes) isn't some sort of cruel barrier to separate you from your loved ones (*chuckle/LOL*), or even to separate you from your past/future lives (even more laughable! *ROFL*), for what is Time, but really an Expression/Exploration of YourSelf through your Universe(s), Your very Own Creation.

(WHAT WE CALL) "GOD", IS THE ESSENCE, TOTALITY AND SIMULTANEITY OF YOUR SOUL, OF ALL-WHOM-YOU-LOVE, OF ALL-THE-COSMOS. THESE THREE ARE ONE. WE UNDERSTAND THIS AS GOD/LOVE.

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xsurf

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #4 - Jul 7^th, 2007 at 12:31am

maze wrote on Jul 6^th, 2007 at 1:39pm:

Hello!
I´m new here and registered mainly because of this question... I`m not perfect in english but I hope you understand...

I`m not sure can anyone give me clear answers...

I`m really confused about this reincarnation thing...If I had have about 10 lifetimes on this earth and when I die does that mean that those persons I have been once does not exist anymore??? And when I reincarnate again into someone else does that mean that this person who I am now does not exist anymore??? What about my loved ones?? When they decide to reincarnate and then die and come back to spirit realm in another person does that mean that my loved ones are gone forever????

I have to say that it`s really depressing if it goes like that way....

Let me speak from a Buddhist perspective.... We are all reborn not only from lifetime to lifetime, but also reborn every single moment because of ignorance conditioning the whole rebirth momentum... until you realise the nature of reality and then you overcome the cycle of rebirth, right here and now (let's not talk about afterlife first). That means the factors conditioning rebirth ceases right here and now, you no longer reborn even right now, because there is no more ignorance.

Like what my friend Thusness/Passerby said:

Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".

As you can see, rebirth is not the reincarnation of an fixed entity of a self. There is only a momentary Self, of Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, etc. That is why I said you are reborn every moment. Even right now there is no fixed Self, just as the word 'Weather' does not refer to a fixed entity but an ongoing everchangingness of weather conditions -- cloud formations, rain, lightning, wind, etc.

This conditions changes moment to moment and is carried to the 'next life'. However, it is not a fixed 'self' that is reincarnated. When you are reborn in the afterlife, you bring along your karmic and mental factors, but you no longer remember your previous lives. (Though it is possible to recall past lives through various methods)

So to summarise, in relative truth, you are still you, but in ultimate truth, there is no 'you' to begin with. It is only by ignorance do we attach to the notion that there is a truly existing self that is permanent. And it is this ignorance that conditions rebirth. In reality such a self cannot be found.

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xsurf

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #5 - Jul 7^th, 2007 at 12:57am

maze wrote on Jul 6^th, 2007 at 1:39pm:

What about my loved ones?? When they decide to reincarnate and then die and come back to spirit realm in another person does that mean that my loved ones are gone forever????

Hi, a person who passes away does not necessarily enters into the spirit realm. From the Buddhist perspective, there are 31 planes of Samsaric Existence (see http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/bhumis.htm ), which Spirit realm is one of them, and Human realm. If you attain Nirvana then you transcend cycles of rebirth in all the 31 existences.

We are reborn in accordance to our karma. Karma is not a system of judgement by a supreme deity, it is a conditioning of your consciousness. Especially in Buddhism, Karma is neither an adventitious elemental defilement, like it is for the Jains, nor a subtle and transcendental deterministic fate, like for certain schools of Hinduism. Karma is simply the correlation between cause and effect. It is a natural law. The last moment of death is also vital... for example if your mind is full of hatred and ignorance it is easy to be reborn in the lower realms of existence.

Even though there are higher and more enjoyable realms of existence, it is best to be reborn in the human realm because of the opportunity and all the great conditions to gain deep insights into reality. Realms such as celestial realm may not have such great conditions, though enjoyable, they may just be obsessed with their enjoyment. Human realm is the best place to gain enlightenment.

So anyway, in relative truths your relatives certainly aren't 'gone forever', they are just reborn in another lifetime according to what his conditions ripen. It seems an inevitable course for everyone though, though it may take a very very long time for some people, to reach enlightenment and realise our true nature. Then all the illusions of being a separate individual self is transcendended (therefore we are all 'one' in a higher sense), and we realise our true nature/buddha nature to be luminous-emptiness, or in conventional terms, consciousness that is empty in nature. Some people call this our 'true self', but most often than not there are tons of misconceptions of the nature of 'true self' even after one has some glimpses of this reality. True self must not be misunderstood to be eternalistic nor as a background (see http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/mistaken-reality-of-amness.html ), and is not separated from moment to moment manifestation. It must be understood in terms of non-duality and emptiness. This is a deeper subject, won't dwell on it more in this thread.

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george stone Super Member Offline Afterlife Knowledge Member Posts: 857	Re: Question about reincarnation Reply #6 - Jul 7^th, 2007 at 1:17pm Than what happens at the moment of death?do we go into a dream like state,and not remember our love ones?This to me does not make sense at all>George
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vajra

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #7 - Jul 7^th, 2007 at 3:16pm

I'm no expert on this. I've heard the view expressed that after death we return to the dharmakaya (the primordial I am or absolute state before rebirth. And that after birth we can be reborn in multiple locations or as multiple emanations of the same energy.

Not sure that that makes it any clearer, but I guess the point is that while there is an apparent self in this life, and while both conventional and a more refined essence of that self may continue (and even be contactable in the afterlife) it may be a mistake to see that as a sequential or linear cycle of existence - given that time may not apply, the likely existence of a self which is in some way a composite of multiple past lives, and the possibility that multiple emanations may be possible.

In other words we may be attempting to theorise based on a self centred, sequential time based and inaccurate understanding of what's going on.....

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xsurf

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #8 - Jul 7^th, 2007 at 11:14pm

george stone wrote on Jul 7^th, 2007 at 1:17pm:

Than what happens at the moment of death?do we go into a dream like state,and not remember our love ones?This to me does not make sense at all>George

Though it is possible to see visions of relatives, it doesn't have to always be the case.

The states happening immediately after death are very well documented in scriptures such as the Tibetan Book of the Dead, wonder if anyone read it before. It has v close similarities with most near death experiences. You may want to grab the book, it should be in any major bookstores.

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xsurf

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #9 - Jul 8^th, 2007 at 12:16am

Quote:

I'm no expert on this. I've heard the view expressed that after death we return to the dharmakaya (the primordial I am or absolute state before rebirth. And that after birth we can be reborn in multiple locations or as multiple emanations of the same energy.

Not sure that that makes it any clearer, but I guess the point is that while there is an apparent self in this life, and while both conventional and a more refined essence of that self may continue (and even be contactable in the afterlife) it may be a mistake to see that as a sequential or linear cycle of existence - given that time may not apply, the likely existence of a self which is in some way a composite of multiple past lives, and the possibility that multiple emanations may be possible.

In other words we may be attempting to theorise based on a self centred, sequential time based and inaccurate understanding of what's going on.....

I have to disagree with you... though it is possible to have multiple emanations, someone not liberated is utterly under the influence of karmic forces. That's like you enter into sleep... dream scenes just come up spontaneously and you have no control over them... this is similar to the case of death. Karmic fruition occurs without your ability to control them.

If you become liberated and enlightened, become a Bodhisattva, then you are above the influence of karmic forces (does not mean karma no longer occurs for you, they still do but you are not identified with them). Then they can do multiple emanations.

Next, you're quite right about the Dharmakaya --- at the time of death there will be the experience of Clear Light -- though most unenlightened people will not recognise it and the experience passes within a second... then one undergoes another cycle of rebirth.

However I must also mention that Dharmakaya is not to be mistaken as the I Am. I Am is the reflection of the Absolute... it is not the Absolute itself. There are many stages of realisations, and the I AM is not the complete realisation yet. Please see: Thusness's Six Stages of Experience and Enlightenment is a gradual process and the many other similar articles in the same blog.

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jonathandilas

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #10 - Jul 8^th, 2007 at 3:09am

maze wrote on Jul 6^th, 2007 at 1:39pm:

I`m really confused about this reincarnation thing...If I had have about 10 lifetimes on this earth and when I die does that mean that those persons I have been once does not exist anymore??? And when I reincarnate again into someone else does that mean that this person who I am now does not exist anymore??? What about my loved ones?? When they decide to reincarnate and then die and come back to spirit realm in another person does that mean that my loved ones are gone forever????
.

Hi Maze,

these other reincarnation lives exist at the same time while you're living in the phyiscal system. It's like some games on your harddisc on your computer. One game may play in the midage and another one in the future, but they are all at the same time on your disc and you can enter that game whenever you want. So if you die in a physical manner you disconnect from your body, but that doesn't effect the other reincarnated selves. They continue their living and will die at another time.
And after being dead you may wander through your alternative realities or you may connect to another life temporary, but at the end of this process, as we hope, you will come to focus 27 to get informed about your further activities.

Jonathan

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vajra

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #11 - Jul 8^th, 2007 at 6:25am

Thank X. In truth my understanding of the finer details of that stuff is patchy. I wasn't aware of the distinction in Buddhist thought on emanations or of the precise meaning of the Dharmakaya.

Guess I was however raising the possibility that much as you say that (a) the after death process is something most of us can't control (it seem to be widely implied that we can in some spiritual frameworks, but the fact that we can maybe become conscious of parts of it doesn't mean this is necessarily the case) and (b) that the processes set out in these frameworks may or may not reflect any reality, or be the whole picture or whatever.

We're so limited by the fact that we can only theorise about this stuff in terms of our time/space/relativistic/self centred intellects....

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dave_a_mbs

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #12 - Jul 8^th, 2007 at 4:40pm

Hi George-
I think the question about what happens relative to our loved ones arises from the assumption that the natures of our loved ones are forever separated from our own nature. And with this question, we open up the structure of the "Astral Levels".

Let's start from the top down. In the beginning there is only the Ultimate Creative Impulse, Bergson's elan vital, St Thomas Aquinas "Uncaused Cause", or some call it "Mind" (but that carries a lot of freight about thinking that isn't necessarily valid), or we can pick a word like Braham, Allah, or Javeh, the descriptive label God, or perhaps Creator, or even the hippies' term, "Cosmic Consciousness". Whatever this is, there is only One. For those who are in a spiritual level of the afterlife in which they perceive the truth of this, we say that they are in the "Upper Astral", and we believe that these souls have access to the experience of their connection with God to the degree that they allow themselves.

From this One, comes everything. Therefor, in at least one way we all can recognize that, in St Paul's terms, "I know you all, all children of God." That is to say, there is at least one way in which we do not differ from God, and thus, with respect to that way, we are coextensive with God. So, in a real way, you are God, your loved ones are God, and we are all God together.

Now looking at it from the bottom up, what we find is that we are each individual lumps of active protoplasm engaged in survival. As we grow, we begin to incorporate consideration of others in our awareness, and eventually we discover love, compassion etc. Still, because we are not yet spiritually "street wise" we tend to view the material world is the primary and ultimate basis of everything. We also relate all our ideas back to the material world. Thus, when we love, we view the target of our affection as separate and different from us. Further, we have found at least one way, based on material explanations for our experiences, in which we can find our selves different from God. (As a quick example, I can't wave my arms and fly out my window. Thus, there is something that a Creator might create that is beyond me, hence I am not God.) To the degree that we cling to the notions that are differentiating as opposed to those that are unifying, we also stay in the illusion of the primacy of material reality.

Those who die while clinging to the idea of materiality wind up in an astral reality in which they remain individuals. That doesn't mean that they cease to be elements of Godhead with a common unifying nature, but it does mean that they are not yet aware of their God-nature. As a result, these souls are not in a location in which they have perpetually direct access to the nature of God, but rather they exist in a lower spiritual state, hence we call it the "Lower Astral".

The state into which we are born in the world is always material, because that is how birth is defined. The spiritual state, however, varies according to our ability to accept our ultimate oneness with everything and everybody, as well as the basic values this entails. These values are conveniently summarized by the three primary forms of yoga, Bhakta (love), jnana (awareness) and karma (action). (These arise from the three gunas, the three basic aspects of reality, structures, relationships and processes.) What happens to us once we are living here is that we can increase the love we feel and rediscover our loved ones in the Upper Astral, where they manifest as projections of God, or we can cling to their material qualities and rediscover them in Lower Astral. Occasionally, severe negative emotions keep a few souls stuck in the mental fringes, earthbound, which is the BST level that Bruce's rescue work targets.

For you and me, depending on how much we are willing to accept at the moment of death, we can turn loose of everything and return to Godhead, or we can turn loose of a lot of stuff, and stay in Upper Astral, or we can cling to the earth and Lower Astral, or if we are sufficiently screwed up we can get stuck in a BST or a haunting mode. (Very unlikely.) All major religious traditions have stories of how these levels work and what happens to the dead, but the sum is essentially a matter of choosing where we allow ourselves to go. Again, for you and me, we do not lose our loved ones, but we retain that awareness of them that is most appropriate to our own level of advancement. The most perfect level of advancement is to merge our own nature with that of God, following the awareness that there is at least one way in which that is possible. To the degree to which we do that, not only do we not lose our loved ones, but our love is expanded more or less infinitely. In a sense, with death comes the ability to love in a manner beyond the levels to which mere mortals are restricted.
PUL
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Starboom Full Member Offline Posts: 135 Norway Gender:	Re: Question about reincarnation Reply #13 - Jul 8^th, 2007 at 5:46pm Thanks Dave, that was beautifully written. May I ask what sources you have this information from? And not only that; I also wonder how much you have read versus how much you have experienced of what you just wrote. I'm very much a skeptic, but great post nonetheless.
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george stone

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Re: Question about reincarnation
Reply #14 - Jul 8^th, 2007 at 10:53pm

Hi dave.nice post.I have seen people who have past over,and they look great,happy,smiling,and solid.If you have read the post that I had on this board,about mary who died some 60 years ago coming down the road to meet me and talk to me,just like she was still living here,and she was at the same age as when she died.I even saw her mothers face appare on the side of marys face.and her mother died at the age of 80,but when I saw her here she looked to be in her 20s.So they do know us from where they are,George

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