Would appreciate your views/thoughts on some tough (but I think very pertinent) questions that exercise my mind from time to time. Pardon the length.

It's fairly clear from a variety of traditions that we cycle from physical existence to the afterlife states and back again until at some point we achieve a state that permits moving on to the next level. Robert Monoe's explorations of the focus levels and the Tibetan Buddhist Bardo teachings tend for example to confirm this.

What's not so clear is exactly what in specific terms determines when, how and where we progress. There's snippets. It's clear we can get stuck, it's also fairly clear (or at least routinely taught/accepted) that some (like Tibetan Buddhist masters)  can exert considerable control - right down to predicting places and times of their future birth.

Others teach or suggest a 'happy happy' sort of scene - that basically whatever you do it's OK as in you'll progress to somewhere reasonable. That almost any even quite half assed struggling along the path in this life will do it for you.

Others like Tibetan Buddhism teach that even rebirth as a human is relatively unlikely for most, that the animal or hell realms are more likely and that we only occasionally come up for air as humans (where real spiritual progress becomes possible) after we burn off lots of negative karma through suffering - this in turn the result of ego. That the ability to determine rebirth requires an almost automaton lack of selfishness/ego so that compassion is left to function as the driver. (in the form of an urge to be reborn to help others)

Even in Robert Monroe the possibilities if you read between the lines (while he doesn't get as far as proposing hell realms per se if my memory is correct) is quite tough - lots of beings stuck in delusional states that are not exactly pleasant.  He doesn't specify what determines the nature of rebirth, and is clear that it's possible to get stuck for various selfishness related reasons. It's I think possibly said by some TMI that he didn't end up after death where he'd indicated he might either - that he has been contacted not where expected.

It gets even more complicated if you accept what Tibetan Buddhism says - that a individual can result in multiple rebirths or emanations. (bearing in mind that the concept of self is held to be essentially delusional anyway)

So to pose some biggies (not necessarily in hope of hard answers - but snippets/thoughts would be interesting):

1.  Does anybody have any very well defined experientially transmitted information to add to all of this?

2.  If so, just how probable is a human rebirth, and what makes it possible?

3.  Hell realms seem a definite possibility if you take it that they are mind created. What's likely to get us there?

4.  How (Bardo teachings excepted) might one influence one's rebirth (after death that is)?

4.  Is the Buddhist Bodhisattva teaching that we should basically keep on returning to this existence until all sentinent beings achieve realisation reflected or supported by evidence from elsewhere? Is that the way it is anyway, that humanity is some sort of collective as RM says.

5.  Or is it possible that that's a human-centric conceit - that we may be required to go all sorts of places for all sorts of reasons, and that taking vows to be reborn just screws it up? (I don't have too much trouble accepting that vows seriously entered into can probably influence rebirth)

6.  Is the above idea (that we don't get out of the asylum until we all achieve lift off) supported by traditions other Robert Monroe? I'm not sure about the Buddhist view on this.

7. Could it even be that it's all determined entirely by what you believe. That if you have a happy happy view that that's what you get. That if you have a tougher view that that's what you get too? Or that maybe it's impossible to not get caught up in selfish hoping (which requires a belief in negative possibilities) unless you achieve realisation or total loss of self???

Etc.

If we were to truly take on board Tibetan Buddhist teaching on this I think we'd all end up in monasteries or closeted in caves and striving after realisation. Not to mention that teaching would become a growth industry....

????

  Thank you all. It's great to be able to float this kind of stuff....

Vajra,

My philosophies are mainly derived from Bruce Moen's (have you read his books yet?)
and Michael Newton. I'll let others chime on philosophical issues. But I'll share some of my data...

I have seen and heard Monroe in the afterlife on many occasions. I've never seen him
below F27. Also, he's very busy, whether meeting with afterlife projectors or other projects
I can't even fathom... For example, I think he created some sort of Monroe museum for others to visit.

As far a deceased friend I have: I have bumped into him on many occasions there. He or some fragments of his energy spent a fair bit of time in the astral (F21-F26). Perhaps three to four years.
Now I can only find him in F27. From conversations with him, I think death was different than what he expected. He expected some sort of eternal heaven-like bliss coming from a Christian background. Instead, what he got was a continuation of "life" and work. I don't know anything about his re-birth plans, yet. Perhaps, he's taking his time, given his life was cut short way too early.

I also have experience working with students who are relatively new to the Earth life experience. As far I can tell, one human life leads to the next. In between, there are chances to reflect and ask questions to people who are more experienced.

Recently I asked what my first life on Earth was. Expecting a human situation, I was stunned to find I was a farm chicken   . My sense is after you master the relatively simple existences of animal life, you move onto lives of more complexity such as being a human.

-mike  

To be a devil's advocate. It can get really complicated when you factor in the possibility of our returning in the form of multiple emanations, simultaneously or otherwise. Also that it's not necessarily about individual selves, but (depending on how you describe it) God/primordial mind/universality/whatever manifesting as countless forms of life. Oh, and that time is probably a local concept with no actual existence.

Not to mention that what we perceive/experience in this relative existence (which includes the afterlife) seems anyway essentially to be mind made, or dream like. That the absolute or only true reality seems essentially unknowable to our human mind or intellect.

Point being that we (and writers over the centuries) theorise systems of rebirth based on whatever snippets of experience of other realities we hear and/or accumulate, but inevitably from a personal/individualistic perspective. For example: encountering Joe in focus 27 or whatever can potentially have a multitude of implications  - far more than the obvious conclusion that that's where Joe 'is'.

I guess it kind of begs the question too of how useful or fruitful speculation on this stuff is. Fun perhaps if you are that way inclined, useful in explaining experience and preventing fear of the unknown from preventing our opening (at it's most basic it's the best reason ever for not living a wholly selfish life - if this life was definitely  'it' we'd probably mostly behave like animals) but probably essentially a sideshow or a diversion from the real business of personal growth.....

Hi all, dave said: The seventh state, found in the center of the Mandala of the Wheel of Life is called "sat-chit-ananda", and is the state in which we reach "liberation"
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just thought this is interesting. yesterday i was talking to a lady on myspace and she asked me to explain the 7th heaven concept of course I'm thrilled anyone encourge me
so I'm thinking remember the phrase 7th heaven? it actually has a basis in many religions I just found out, that number. I'm working on a blog over there for her.

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sometimes we can't think too much about where the edges of the universe are, like in absolute terms like we wish we could. I'm like a rubber band, you can only stretch me so far and I snap back in place.
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so we have a tube worm on board as well a chicken and a duck, well shiver me timbers. I remember performing as this water dance team, there were 3 or 4 of us. the reason I said mermaids is the surprise element was breathing underwater, the thrill of being able to let loose of fear, as I was underwater and couldn't get to the top for a breath and something said, go ahead, you can breath and I could. then a man or guide pulled out my picture and said, I've tracked you down, I want to hire your team, I remember you from this other life.
so whatever, I'm available

Vajra:

What you're asking basically leads to the issue of "does reincarnation work as commonly believed?"

I echo what Dave suggested. Tibetan Buddhism is a dogmatic system that has been around for years. Some Tibetan Buddhists do things like 10,000 prostrations a day. I doubt you'll get into doing so.

It may be that reincarnation happens at an I-there/disc level.  One larger self sends out many incarnations, and each incarnation is a self in its own right. After meeting his I-there (as described in his third book),  Robert Monroe was told that his I-there has existed for "many" years. He stated that he didn't remember. He was told that he wouldn't, because he didn't exist. When it became time for his I-there to incarnate again, the right mixture of ingredients were put together in order to create his incarnation.

Bruce Moen wrote something similar in his third book, even though he tends to express the viewpoint that selfs/probes do incarnate more than once. He was told that he was created as a retriever probe. The right mixture of ingredients were put together to create his current self.

Thomas Sawyer's near death experience states the same thing. He states that only about 5% of Soul incarnates in the physical. The ingredients for an incarnating self can come from a prior lifetime, previous lifetimes, and even other Souls.

When Ron Krueger had a near death experience he met his previous lifetimes which were still alive and abiding in a state of oneness with each other in the spirit World. They didn't incarnate along with his current self.

If I have interpreted the messages I received from spirit guidance correctly, a self "doesn't" reincarnate over and over again. Rather, different smaller selves from a larger self incarnate throughout various time periods in a manner that isn't strictly determined by linear time.

If you consider what I wrote about Monroe, Moen, Sawyer and Krueger above my interpretation makes sense, because how could the evolutionary goal of the common viewpoint of reincarnation be implemented on an individual-smaller self basis, when new selves are created in order to meet the goals of a larger self?

Mendel mentioned Michael Newton's books. Michael Newton wrote that sometimes a Soul will have more than one incarnation take place at the same time.  If this is true, what happens when each smaller self returns to its bigger self? Which personality characteristics are maintained? There is liable to be some contradictions.  If personality development works in the manner commonly believed, it wouldn't be possible to reconcile the divergent personality traits of two returning selves and the Soul fragment that stayed behind in the World of spirit, because personality traits aren't worked out so easilly (By the way, dave a mbs has found different results than Michael Newton when he does hypnotic regressions. He has stated that Michael Newton provides a lot of suggestions when he hypnotizes people. This can be seen if you read his third book.).

There is another factor to consider.  Some people use the term Soul group rather than Disc/Over soul/Higher Self/I-there/Monad.  It is possible that they receive information in this way because not everybody is ready to accept the disc/oversoul etc viewpoint. Even when a person writes about the soul group viewpoint, it is understood that group members share their incarnational experiences with each other.  Some have written that this sharing is done completely. The fact of this negates the need for a particular self having to incarnate many times. It learns from its disc/soul group members. Plus, there are ways to learn in the spirit World that don't exist here. Supposedly, there are many spirits who never physically incarnate.

Another factor to consider, if people have to get enlightened while in the physical as the Bodhisatva viewpoint suggests, then where are all the takers? I became interested in Eastern teachings about 26 years ago, and I found that there aren't a lot of enlightened people walking around. At this rate we'll all be reincarnating forever. On the other hand, many near death experiencers have found that much of their spiritual selves are recovered during their NDE. This was my experience during a night in heaven experience I had. I instantly went from being a certain that there is no such thing has God, Christ and afterlife, to understanding for certain that these things do exist.

When people do past life regressions, it is possible that the lives of disc/soul group members are tapped into, rather than a smaller self that reincarnates over and over and over and over again.  Carried over injuries suggest that this is the case. For example, in his first or second book, Bruce wrote about retrieving a prior self named Joshua. Bruce had a liver disease in the exact same spot Joshua was wounded with a spear. After Joshua was retrieved by Bruce, he had his injury cured. Resultantly, negating the need for Bruce to incarnate with a physical disorder, if reincarnation is thought of in the commonly believed way.  Joshua is another part of Bruce in a disc sense, not in a smaller self that reincarnates over and over again sense.

I believe there could be some exceptions. If a self is really unhappy with its past lifetime, it might choose to incarnate again.  There also might be occasions where Souls reincarnate for service purposes.

But don't take my word for it.

P.S. You can go nutty trying to figure out this sort of thing. It's really tough while here in the physical. Welcome to the club of the beffudled.

yes I agree Recoverer did a good job here. I usually want to argue with him on certain points but I found it all fit in nicely with my own views, so..haha! was gonna make a joke but my guides said my humor sucks.

I would put it in slightly different words but my perceptions do fit with Alberts, not an exact fit, but it will.

I have to resort to blunt honesty and I hate doing it because I may be judged, but I have to get real simple language when I talk about the paranormal, or mystical experiences I've had. all my life I was abused, neglected by my mother. I was very attracted to her character deep down. wouldn't call it love, so much as a deep respect. yes you can love people who reject you. so one day I get much older but not much smarter.
I ask the universe a question expecting one day I'll get an answer. why has my mother never accepted me? then the answer came in a movie played in my head during the dream state. I had assassinated my mother as another person I had been. I saw the details and I saw the reason that was to me justified, she mistreated the slaves.
After seeing this I realized why I had returned to this life to rectify the situation and also she could learn, that the situation needed forgiving on both of our sides. karma in other words. after seeing what I had done I was amazed at myself to put it mildly but it all made sense and made forgiveness on my part that much easier and quicker, which, you have to understand I consider forgiveness in this world a feat of courage rarely understood, and less rarely truly done.

What we accomplished she and I, thru forgiveness was to not be bound to one another either in this life or the next. the freedom is unimaginable and inexpressible now when I think of mother.

I am not saying the small self keeps reincarnating life after life. what I would say it was a choice to come back this time because I did love her and I was sorry I did it. I was able to save her life this time. not going into that. its in my book.

I don't think it works that way on the other side that anyone is forced to come here and perpetuate suffering and dramatic scenes. I believe that we have choice, assistance of elders and couselors and we dive in because we get optimistic on the other side when we draw up the plans. its a lot harder once we get here, so some of us do the suicide route.

the way I can reconcile Alberts thought system with my own, is to try...here in C1 we are dealing with a very limited awareness of our total being, a conglomeration of perhaps many lives. there is limit here, there is unlimit there. its like I was shown in a vision a funnel reaching to the sky. at one end was this physical being who thought she was limited. at the other end the funnel opened up wider. through this funnel little bits of my higher self were fed into my daily C1 in a series of days. linear time.
Most of me, is not here in C1. Most of me is on the other side watching this me.
directing the movie, now that I'm receptive to her.
I call her the observer. she is finished and complete, I here, am always just beginning.

each life the memory of something prior that happened would need to be erased for the most part, so that all things would become new, and the right choices made, to learn to control one's passion and allow the higher self to control the mind.

but I cannot get my head around the idea of a committee of disc members trading pieces of themselves for another life to be projecting into physical area.
I can see new entities born from each life, new conscious beings like producing children, only if I see this is how we are co-creators with god, to share this ability to spin off holographic new beings from this life force we exist in.

I can see from an old fashioned perspective, that each soul remains intact, each soul bears fruit, brings the fruit back to the disc, or group of individuals and we all benefit from that. but I'm not able to see myself dimenished by any merge which takes place.

they told me I am not required to return. I feel very happy there will be no suggestions coming my way unless I create them!

well I hope I didn'tmanage to rile anyone up. not my purpose. Life is good, thats my only message these days.
love, alysia

hi Fahria  with human consciousness what it is, wherever one places ones attention one tends to produce that circumstance.
look to find demons and demons will oblige to show up. look to find angels and the same will happen. it is creative mind produces our exeriences. focus on higher thought and more of that reality is created.
fear thoughts create the same holographically. love thoughts will lead you in the place you want to go. never study the problem, only the solution. whatever you ask believing will be added unto you. protection is available for the asking.

Must say I'd be very slow to deny animals having existence independent of the body much as we do. Our two cats are very much a part of the family.

As best I can tell they give and experience love, they teach by their actions, are interested in what 'their' humans are up to, they respond positively when love is given, are pleased to be re-united after separation and so on. They reciprocate in relationships, have positive and negative moods and feel emotions like fear, anger, embarassment (?), loneliness and so on.

There's less discursive intellect about, but apart from that we're not very different. And the spiritual path if anything very quickly teaches us the highly limited usefulness of discursive intellect/conceptual thought - that there are other forms of more intuitive intelligence at work in us humans too....