Hi Caryn-
Wow, that picture is beautiful!  - It's interesting that I'm using Ubuntu (a Debian Linux system) - "peace and god will to all".

(For those who haven't thought about Linux as yet, it has open source code so that you have thousands of people available to help with any little problems, it almost never crashes, is almost impossible to hack, and the Ubuntu family is dedicated to free upgrades forever. They have a web presence that tells all about it.)

You're right, I began life as a Platonist. As the astronomer Eddington used to tell people, a description is nice, but when you can put something in numbers and use them to predict and describe, then you really have understanding.

The interesting part of all that is that in the end the math and logic vanish and all there is left is awareness of the Transcendental One.  Not even thought. Just awareness.

Maybe  can put that into an equation next week?

PUL
d

Not too sure that intellectual thought like maths amounts to real understanding. It's surely a mind made system of concepts that's presumed to predict or to be a facsimilie of reality, but which does not/is not.

Buddhism would argue that only holistic non relative (realised) awareness and intuition can connect with reality - that otherwise our conditioning causes us to see only what fits our pre-conceptions. Which in turn are driven by our egotistical orientation - we seek to perceive only that which we mistakenly think will make us happy. (and thus bring about the gold fish bowl of striving/grasping under the control of apparent but actually almost non existent free will)

Intellectual/conceptual thought as Plato held is nevertheless an important step in moving us beyond blind instinctive emotionalism - to bring head as well as heart into our decision making.

20th century history though has rather amply demonstrated the pitfalls and limits of heartless intellectual thought - our cult of the intellect has created a  world without heart. Fortunately there's been a considerable rising of compassion more recently - the Age of Aquarius and all that implies.

Gurdjieff, Buddhism and other traditions talk of the Jacobs ladder. That man (both over an individual lifetime, and collectively over subsequent generations) progresses from brute self interested instinct (felt as emotion) to intellectual understanding of the limits of this to the dawning of compassion/heart/care for others (felt also as emotion, but the opposite of self interest) to integration and balancing of the head (intellect) and the heart (the full range of emotions).

Man 1, man 2 and man 3 so to speak...

Indeed, indeed Ubuntu – the language of our forefathers - Nkosi (Father) Sikelel’ (Bless) iAfrika (Africa) Sounds like a good equation to implement.

Thanks for your replies this is a great discussion – all we need now, together with Plato, is Aristotle, Philo and Heraclitus to pop up and it’ll be as if we are in Athens mussing upon life!

Dave, I think you described the art of mathematics with great reason; "The interesting part of all that is that in the end the math and logic vanish and all there is left is awareness of the Transcendental One.  Not even thought. Just awareness".  

With this in my understanding; the thought control of logic reason transcends into higher awareness.

Boris yes I agree in a sense mathematics is abstract however in its abstractness there is a goal of logic within the correctness of the set out equation.  

You see,  mathematics is not accepted merely on the authority of the teacher of mathematics; every individual accepts mathematics because he gradually acquires knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals.

The construction of concepts and representations in mathematics gives the student of mathematics the ability to use correct judgment acting on the strength of what he knows.

And with this, as Dave said in the end the math and logic vanish, we see here it is the exercise of the science which leads to this point by cultivating the powers of understanding and our faculty of judgment. And indeed it is not a matter of becoming an expert in the science (although it is helpful) the discipline opens the all-embracing knowledge of the Spirit.

And with this the soul will be filled with a gladness which is not superficial good cheer, but has its part in the life-giving seriousness that increases our strength.

As you said Vajra “Intellectual/conceptual thought as Plato held is nevertheless an important step in moving us beyond blind instinctive emotionalism - to bring head as well as heart into our decision making”.  

Also Vajra what you said here;
"20th century history though has rather amply demonstrated the pitfalls and limits of heartless intellectual thought - our cult of the intellect has created a  world without heart. Fortunately there's been a considerable rising of compassion more recently - the Age of Aquarius and all that implies".

In my understanding;
At the beginning of Earth-evolution, the human being was part of a group-soul — as expressed in race, blood, family and so on — to a far greater extent than was the case later on. As evolution continues he becomes more and more of an individual, develops his individuality. We have heard what an important part certain forces play in the development of the individuality during Earth-evolution: consciousness that is dependent on the physical body; memory and remembrance which are dependent upon the ether-body; and karma, whereby a man can make real progress, in that his imperfections and faults do not remain but can be overcome by him as he passes through one incarnation after another.

This stage of our evolution is very important in that it developed our Intellectual soul and with this the incorporation of our Ego (not selfish egotism, a clear distinction must be made from this - not selfish controlling egotism – the Ego being the I AM)

And with this incorporation of the Ego consciousness, like you say, arises compassion.  Compassion because the ego consciousness is Christ like.  This is stage of our epoch named the fifth post-Atlantean period is very important to prepare us for the sixth post-Atlantean period as you rightly called the Age of Aquarius which is in preparation now.

We must reach the vantage-point of the true Buddhist who says that the Individuality in the Buddha was that of a “Bodhisattva” who was born as the son of King Suddhodana, rose in his twenty-ninth year to the rank of Buddha, thereby attaining a height whence he need no longer return to a body of flesh. That, therefore, was the final incarnation of the Bodhisattva Individuality who does not reincarnate in the era following the founding of Christianity.

Contemplating the Buddha we see a very special mission in the universe devolves upon an Individuality as sublime as the Buddha. The Individuality who became the Buddha had been sent from the hosts of Christ on the Sun to the 'Venus men' before they came to the Earth; the Individuality of the Buddha, therefore, had been sent forth by Christ from the Sun to Venus, as His emissary. This Individuality came to the Earth with the Venus men and had thus reached such an advanced stage of development that through the Atlantean, on into the Post-Atlantean era, he was able to attain to the rank of Buddhahood before the coming of Christ. He was in very truth a Christian before the time of Christ. We know, too, that later on he revealed himself in the astral body of the Jesus-Child of St. Luke's Gospel — since he need no longer return in a body of flesh. United as he is with the Christ Stream.

Gloria.

Spooky, I hear what you say and I do believe this is the challenge we are faced with today again relating to the very marked difference between the I AM and the egotistic way of thinking.

People often say that rising to the spiritual worlds is a fantastic illusion. They do not see that it is the loss of this knowledge which has brought materialism upon us, with the incapacity for social understanding to which it is allied, with the materialistic way of living, and attitude towards life.

This is the double edged sword.  On the one hand we needed to develop our Individual Intellectual soul and on the other hand we need to stay in touch with our spiritual origins.

This is where the art of mathematics comes in the objective training of the thought process in order to transcend above materialism with the abstractness of mathematical conceptulisation and at the same time transcending above the fantastic illusion the spiritual world often tends to play on us.

However, not everybody is a mathematical genius or whiz and here philosophy comes in;  philosophy does not comprehend the Inexpressible Word, but it can nevertheless still have a feeling for the soul element in the world when it reveals itself in the soul of man as the expressed word. Philosophy does not find the Unmanifest Light, but can sense it from afar, inasmuch as it appears, in its last activity, in human thinking, — that is to say, in that portion of the human spirit which is turned, to begin with, to the external world. Body, soul and spirit.

Spiritual study through philosophy is a helpful discipline, as studying any disciplined Theosophy order such as the teachings of Buddha and Christ wherein the Unmanifested Light comes to be manifested within.

Spooky, I haven’t heard of phaenomenologic but I hear what you saying in connection with language. It is a wonderful approach you have with this.  To contemplate not the dry unalive letters and words but the living essence of the language of words and spiritual meaning thereof. Beautiful! my approach is astrology wherein I find the discipline of the science together with the living word.

Again thanks for the replies, and the read.

Lots of love to all.

Caryn
Ubuntu

I think therefore I am!  I don't think therefore I also am!

Yes, I see the core of math is application of logic.  Another thought I had was one can reach highest complex equations/thoughts/ideals and from there it goes into a simplistic equation/thought/idea.  And this is well expressed in math and numbers.  Although I can't say quantum physics is simple for me!  But possibly if we look at numerology and numbers 1 to 9 we see the simplisty of the idea.  Another thought; reducing the complex into simplist is Love  possibly Love is the number 0.

So that's what Plato was doing!

Thanks for the numerical writings (I asked for it didn't i!)  Totally agree; it's not a case of reducing people and minds to numbers blah awful matrix way of thought - it is, as you said, as Plato (must have been) teaching the harmonics and resonating to the harmonical vibration or octave .. music of the Spheres really.

So, there are two concepts here;

1.  Studying math to train the mind into logic thinking.
2.  Tuning into the octave (expressed in numbers its simplist form)

I do think we all vibrate on certain notes, octaves, numbers which maybe in turn creates the colour of our aura?
In keeping with consistency one resonants harmonically with ones octave, sometimes we hit a flat, to high, or low note and to adjust and realign we concentrate on 0. Out of the 0 comes the harmonics.

sorry last sentence sounding a bit abstract ..

PUL
Caryn

Hi Dave

Quote:


This sentence makes me think of – awakening – not changing but awakening to the pre-existed understanding.

If we take a tree for example;  A tree is an art of creation from the (post Saturn days)(Steiner spiritual science). When we were in spirit forms before descending into pre-Earth we were part of this creation and we beholded the etheric material take form into a tree, through evolution. The tree and I evolve at the same time. Our thinking receives the concept of the tree because our memory databank within our soul tells us this is a tree.

The framework of the tree is there; inside our soul and outside in the physical. Inside to be released through rational thought identity as matter into the physical plane and as spiritual matter into the spiritual plane released through our carrier and transmitter of memory within our soul.

With this, if you and I had to look at the same tree in the physical it would look the same however, in the spiritual realm, because it is our memory which recalls the tree, the tree would look different for each person because of individual perception of how a tree should look or the emotion we place on our perception of the tree at the time we are looking at the tree, either it is full of leaves (happy emotion) or it is bare of leaves (sad emotion).

Now, somewhere there must be a collective perception of how the tree looks or at least should look and maybe here we could say this is where Don’s  ‘Night in Heaven’ comes in ..

So possibly what Plato was suggesting is to go beyond the ununiformed perception of the tree into the collective uniformed perception of the tree.

Reckon?

ps: how are you Don? long time no write.

Wonderful day to all


pps:  We had snowfall last night, the coldest weather in 26 years - snow in Africa! Yo!

One thing that existed before there was any-thing that existed is potentiality for there to be  existence, so we never realy have nothing. And if you consider potentiality, the totality of all potentiality is all-encompassing, and the basis for all manifestations. That sounds a lot like a definition of God as Creator. Rubbing two potentialities together creates a relationship that is non-abstract, so we actually can get something for nothing. Hawking suggests that the Universe may be the "ultimate free lunch.

However, my reason is somewhat impure, so I Kant critique it.

d