Beautifully said/written Kathy.

  I largely agree with you Recoverer, and i think there is a very good reason of why Yeshua warned us and his disples about our age, and its very corrupt and illusion filled nature where many would come proclaiming themselves as teachers or even Christs, and said that the best way to discern the false teachers from the real and helpful is by their fruits.  

 Now, other than doing channeled readings, what did Roberts do for others?  Or the lady who channels Elias, she sure charges enough money but how does she give back?  Look at how Roberts ended up and her emotional/mental state.

 But more generally speaking, everything is energy and information (in the form of unique vibratory patterns relative to other vibratory patterns), a book a person picks up is energy in "disguise".   Energy, especially in the form of other consciousnesses, has a more powerful and often largely unconscious affect on us than we might consciously realize. There is much going on below the surface at a subconscious level, and everything literally affects everything else, especially Souls affecting Souls.  

 If for example, Seth is a real nonphysical Consciousness and not a created thoughtform from Roberts and Co, then when you read one of their books, that books acts as a tuning in device to the energy and consciousness of "Seth".  

 Be careful and wise about what you choose to tune into, and allow yourself to be affected by.   Would you knowingly put harmful toxins or poisons in your body?   Most sane people wouldn't do that unless they are already addicted to a negative substance or energy to begin with (like cigarrettes and smoking), and so why would we do that on a mental, emotional and spiritual energy level?  Maybe on some level that we're not aware of, we still believe we "deserve" that, and so while consciously we may think we are freeing ourselves by reading such material, we're really only keeping the ego alive.  

 Even before i read or knew of Seth's derogatory statements about Christ and the denial of not only his death, but his resurrection, just picking up the book and reading a little, i got "bad vibes" from it.    I repeat, it was not a conscious thing where my conscious belief systems clearly differed from or conflicted with what Seth was teaching.   On an intellectual level, i found some of what i read to be interesting and "novel" in some ways.  

 But on a Heart level, i felt darkness, a subtle form of negativity and manipulation, and thought that such a reaction was a clear indication to stay away from that material however intellectually interesting it might be at first glance.   Whatever Seth is or comes from, to me it comes more from ego than not, and thus keeps ego alive, for like always attracts and begets like.  

 When i picked up Bruce's books, Rosie's books, Monroe's latter books, i got "good vibes" from them, and at the same time they were also intellectually interesting.  

 But at the same time, i also think that we choose to have experiences with negative or even misleading conditions, consciousnesses, etc. for deeper reasons too at times.  

 So, its not black and white, and even if Seth is a deliberately misleading consciousness (which he very much is regarding the guide of guides Yeshua), then while i would think that it would be wise in general for people to stay away from him and his teachings and energy, realistically speaking there may be something there which may teach them something about themselves or about life in general even if it means being mislead or what not temporarily.  

 We have negative, misleading, and painful experiences for ultimately good reasons, usually, i believe.    It's good and noble to want people to not have to go through any such things, but from a more expanded spiritual viewpoint, its not realistic or even completely desirable.  

 Sometimes the child needs to touch the hot stove to learn better or to learn something about self, to simplify it.   Sounds harsh, but its so often true when considering humans and our commonly rather stubborn nature as a species.  

 And, no one person, nonphysical consciousness, book, etc. is all negative.   There is wisdom and good things to glean or pick up, from Seth or any other person.  Again, we just need to learn how to discriminate and balance the right brain (the acceptance, and all is good part of us) with the left brain part of us which sees the individual affects, reactions, or relativity of things.   All in all, balance is more important.

 But relativity again, if something is more toxic and harmful than not, usually its best to just completely leave it alone.  

recoverer,

I am not sure at this point if you think I was being nonsupportive of you. I did not, do not, agree with you, but still support you on whichever path you follow.

As to the quote you cited, it was readily apparent of the irony of the statement and not from the point of view of discrediting Jesus, but from the standpoint that in a culture of the time, Jesus understood the basic premise that we view the outside word through the filters of our own experience and being and that if we are truly to love our neighbors like ourselves, we must first love ourselves. If we are not open to love, we cannot receive it nor offer it. If we cannot trust ourselves, how do we trust others. That is the irony, that we must first grow internally and spirtually and then to reflect that inward radiance outward to view the world and treat them as honestly as we treat ourselves.

Obviously, language is open to interpretation. Again, mine is true for me, but I do speak for anyone else.

E.

Recoverer,

The only personal rationalizing and justifying is you -- your very need to post the above topic suggests that you are out for your own agenda and seeking support. The fact that you allowed yourself to be victimized by cult-like mentalities is your issue, not mine. You can post all the examples you want, but, in the end, you come across as the very type of guru you seek to exorcise.

You can rant or rave about the problems of society, about the confines of the intellect, the justification of what you believe to be the only way to see the world. Many like you have come and gone and those slightly more extreme than you have forced people to seek the gurus. The only theme that radiates through in 99.9% of your posts is that you are outraged by being duped and feel it necessary to tell others they are being duped as well and to rally against the demons in your head, manifested in whatever way you choose at the moment. Deal with your issues, deal with your past, but do not expect me to sympathize, because I will not feed into your insecurities for the sake of providing a soapbox.

So ended this 26th day of April, 2007.

E.

On your last comment, recoverer, we both agree.

Also, you are most welcome. 

E.

Regarding agendas, my agenda is to not sit on my hands when people promote sources of information that purposely try to misrepresent Christ.

I think Don's remarks are to the point, since they not only raise the issue of "what is divine" but also "how do we go after it", the issue of dedication. Our capabilities become important in this, as does our motivation.

As both Paul, and Shin Budhism, have taught, we are all of us imperfect - in proof, we have to be here where we have to solve problems. That doesn't mean that we are doomed, nor does it mean that we won't evolve, but simply that what we have here and now is all we've got. Evdently, the best we can do is to do what we know best.

If I wish to go to bed and start off toward the kitchen, I'm not likely to get my wish. I have to focus in the proper direction. I'd like to have a nice eternity. So I focus on my idea of what God is like. It might not be divine to anyone else, but it's the best I can see, so I go for it. And, as we can see, this is not always a correct choioce - maybe I have a cot by the stove tonight whle the bedroom is being repainted - Oooops.

Seth is out of the Egyptian tradition, and is the trickster spirit who persuaded Osiris to get killed and chopped up (I forget the details). My guess, whether it happens to be Jane Roberts' idea of the divine or not, is that Seth is a spirit who is using his mount (Jane) to further his own interests. To the degree that Seth can stir up a response in the world, it serves to further his nature. That's how entities exist (ask one) - they identify with some part of a person's thoughts and then create tendencies to do certain things - and to find a mount who would spread his thoughts like gospel seems like a major blessing for Seth.

What was that Juditha wanted to do - something like fold, spindle and mutilate him? That sounds appropriate somehow, but in all fairness, we must remember that the Inquisition was brought about by people who were dedicated to the "divine" as they saw it. Folding, spindling and mutilation , or whatever, aren't precisely the best we could do - or are they? :-]

dave

Shirley said: After all, what is a prophet, if not a channeler of material?

One other thing.  Jesus (according to the bible) never asked to be revered/worshipped..in fact, he pointed to one greater than himself..
____

good point Shirley.  Yes he did, he said I and the father are one. now that's one phrase I don't think they messed up too badly. if we could see ourselves as divine also, we would not feel so separated from our good and from each other.

it will always be to each his own and human nature is to kill what you love. why? I know, I watch TV and listen to love songs. I read about human nature.

we have to learn to control animal passions and reach to the divine from whence we started and where we will return.  the ironic thing here is nobody sees JC was also a man who overcame his passions with perfect love.
nobody has gotten to perfect love yet, but we sure got the logic part down.   hang in there, perfect love means we will start doing miracles right and left and hardly even think twice about it.

it's exciting. I'm ready!