What is this place that unbelievers like myself are destined for, that Christians are trying (or supposed to be trying) so desperately to save me from? Whatever it is, a god died so I wouldn’t have to go there. At least, that’s the story. I once read another story about some Christian monks who baptized infants and immediately dashed their brains out upon the rocks. The reason? So they would not go to hell. So horrendous was this place, that any cost–even their lives–was not too high a price to ensure that they did not go there. Hell, God's eternal torture chamber, where the greater part of all humanity will spend eternity. What is the purpose of this place? Well, punishment, Christians tell us. But punishment for what purpose? Since there is no remedial value to hell, no chance of learning your lesson and getting let out, what good does the punishment do? Even the most cruel human torturers usually have a reason for their torture. Make the appropriate confessions, tell them what they want to know, and the torture will usually stop. Or at the very least, you can eventually die. But Christians make God out to be the very worst kind of torturer–one that tortures for no other reason than to torture, and one that lets you stay alive forever, with no possible release from the pain.
As a Christian, I was always uncomfortable with this. In an attempt to explain hell while leaving God's reputation for fairness intact, I deferred to a more C.S. Lewis-type explanation. Rather than having God create a place like Hell and sending people there, I saw Hell more as a result of rejecting God. It was the ultimate "you got what you asked for." God was saying, "You really don't want me around? Fine. I'll leave." And the result was hell, the absence of everything good, which vanished when God did. Once you chose to leave God's presence, you chose to live in a Godless universe where the only thing left was pain and suffering, and everything else that was bad about life, or in a word, hell. But aside from making God out to be very petty, like a kid who throws down his marbles and folds his arms because you don’t let him win, this whole idea puts some very strange limitations on God. We'll examine it more later.

The lure of Christianity is that it offers such an easy way out of hell. All you have to do is believe. There are generally no rituals (except baptism in some denominations), and there are no good deeds to perform. A popular Christian bumper sticker sums it up well: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." And the utter horrific nature of hell provides a very compelling reason to convert. Who would not do anything to escape this fate, or to make sure that others avoid it as well? One can begin to understand the rationale of the baby-killing monks. Hell provides the ultimate motive to become a Christian.

Hell is also the strongest case against the Christian faith, for it is nothing less than the most sadistic torture ever devised. In America we pride ourselves in prohibiting something called "cruel and unusual punishment." We look aghast at dictatorial regimes that torture its prisoners and dissidents. Yet even the worst atrocities committed under the cruelest tyrants of this world are nothing when compared to what Christians say God has in store for us. A poignant way to illustrate this is to look at what Christians believe about Jews, especially Jews that were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. Although Christians generally do not discuss this, it is what they must believe, for it is built into their system of "divine justice."

Christians define as hell-bound anyone who does not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. This includes just about all practicing Jews. So imagine this scenario: as the millions of Jews slaughtered in Hitler's death camps passed into the afterlife, they awoke to find themselves burning in hell. Not only was there a lack of food there, there was no food. Not only was there poor drinking water, there was no water. Not only was there pain, there was the most intense pain imaginable, and it was unrelenting. Sort of like being tossed into the ovens of Auschwitz alive. And not only did this suffering just seem like it would never end, it really never would.

It's been over half a century since Hitler's death camps were dismantled. So for more than 50 years, millions of Jews, who were former prisoners of the Nazis, have been suffering to an extent not even imagined by the SS, and for a much longer time. In fact, we can imagine that many Jews are longing to return to the vermin-infested barracks, the moldy bread, the thin gruel, the backbreaking work and brutal treatment–if only to escape the agony of hell for a moment.

This is sick. Yet this is what I had to believe when I was a Christian. This is what the largest Protestant denomination in the world still teaches its followers (although usually indirectly), confident that God condones, and even created, a universe in which this occurs. And to what end? There is no point to Hell, so it becomes merely a cruel instrument of sadism. Sadistic torture of any person by another person is unacceptable. Why do Christians think it's okay when God does this?

And now back to the idea that hell might be a place of our own making, the consequence of rejecting God. If hell occurs when people don't want God around, and He leaves, what does that say about God? If all good things really come from God, isn't God big enough to fill the whole universe? Isn't He already doing it now? Why, in the future, must He parcel His presence to only those who appreciate it? Is the sun not big enough to give light to all the flowers, whether or not they are smart enough to realize from where those life-giving rays emanate?

And even if people really thought they didn't want God around, should God be such a poor sport as to leave just because of that? Christians describe God as a heavenly parent. What sort of parents would abandon a child just because it threw a tantrum and said that it didn't want them anymore? As parents, we are wise enough to realize that kids don't always mean what they say, or even if they do, that they are often merely acting as kids. And besides, we would never abandon them. Now the gulf of understanding that lies between adults and kids is not nearly as big as that which separates God from humans. So why can’t God be at least as decent and understanding to His own kids as we are to ours? Jesus said in Matthew 7: 9-11, "What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" I would like to add to that: "or what parent is there of you, whom if their child disobeys, will douse him in kerosene and set him alight? And what manner of parent who did this would call himself good?"

It is a sad day when people condone the abuse of one human being by another. It is also a sad day when people believe their god does the same.

"Hell and darnation are job security for priests who sell fire insurance."

Very well put, Dave.


Rob

very well written DaBears! I'd like to see your book someday!

and I agree with you, god must be a very very good sport!!

i especially like the prodigal son story in reference to what you've written. here we have a man who was good and stayed in the kingdom of heaven, doing everything according to how he thought god would want.
then you have this bloke squandering everything traveling the world, he comes back home busted, he's got nowhere else to go but home. god welcomes him home with the fatted calf, all is forgotten in the joy that he made it home, busted, but at least he's home.

so then the other good son, who never did anything wrong, never spent all his money, maybe never even had an earth life, he's jealous and wonders why god is celebrating this other son over him, when he was the good one.
I forget what god said. lol. help me out here. ok, I think god said, to the good one, you've never been a worry to me, but look, my other son has come home!  my heart is big enough for both of you.

Alysia, I think God said something about if you had a lamb go missing, you'd hunt for it and be all happy when you found it, while the others were sitting there like good little sheep.  However, it's been a while since I read the Bible, so I may be mixing it up with a different story.

Life has been considerable more relaxing since I figured out that it doesn't have to make any sense to me, Christianity is irrelevant to my life in all but purely practical ways (like blue laws), so I pretty much sit back and let them fight it out among themselves.

I find the title of this thread offensive to christians, eventhough I am not christian.  If there is a lie about damnation - make that the title of the thread.

If you look at the gospels, the teachings of Christ and find that they support damnation meted out unto nonbelievers, I'd be surprised.  Certain forms of christianity, of religion may teach these things.  Rage against those in particular but not christians in general. 

You are likely to offend people you never meant to offend.



Matthew

DaBears, the title of the thread does nothing to support the content, which my opinion stands, the content is exceptionally brilliant. (my opinion)

but the first time I saw the title, I have to admit, I was expecting a rant, I was pleasantly surprised to find there was no rant.

keep it up! all opinions are welcome here Rondele, and you should take your own advice, that you gave to me, we make a new rule here then, to qualify all our posts "in my opinion."

this way all can have an equal voice, we are all important. btw DaBears, are u a Christian?
I consider myself pagan, or Pantheistic. I embrace all humanity. we are all travelers.
I think you must be a cross-over Christian DaBears. the new breed. so young, so much a thinker! Be not afraid! listen to the heart...it will always speak to those who have ears.
love, alysia

Alysia-

I stand corrected.  In my opinion the post is offensive.  Thanks for the correction.  I over reacted to the Subject line.  I guess I should also say that in my opinion the post also violates the Guidelines.  I say that per the excerpt of the Guidelines below:

POSTING GUIDELINES & RULES:

It is a violation subject to banning to post any message that is:

Bullying; threatening; abusive; or harassing
Demeaning; mocking; defamatory; libelous; or hateful
An attack upon the beliefs of individuals or groups

For me, there is no ego invoved in saying the title is offensive; it merely is.  I am not a christian, and were I to be one, I would not fret over it.  We may progress spiritually to the point where sticks and stones don't break our bones, but that doesn't give license to malign an entire religion (either deliberatelly or not) in a forum.  Being "enlightened" does not mean that these forums should be completely unregulated - inappropriate posts should be removed.

Rather than delete this thread, I think it should just be changed in the title and main post so as not to malign the christian religion.


Matthew

Mactek wrote on Apr 19^th, 2007 at 12:03pm:



yes, thats true, we all want to be accepted and loved. good point, about we can choose our reaction, I see thats what I did, I got beyond the title immediately. (pat self on back)

I agree, not all Christians are mislead anymore than any other religion. therefore, DaBears, u want to think of another title?

and I see its important for DaBears to post his thoughts here, he's growing like the rest of us in understanding and when we write something down, we get more clear on our individual pathway..so I don't think we should trash any posts unless outright profanity occurs, but saying that someone is boring, that's another opinion and Justin u said as much.  how would u like it if someone says you are boring? which u r not.

I'm just saying think about how you treat others, as that's what will come back to you.

I still say I've never seen a board with so much diversity and acceptance anywhere. love, alysia

DocM wrote on Apr 19^th, 2007 at 2:09pm:

Doc, my opinion, u are asking the wrong person to change the title. love, alysia

I am a Christian but do not find the subject offensive. I do agree with most of what was stated in the original post. I have been doing much thinking over what is taught within the church. Some is good but some is also inaccurate due to misinterpretation, in my opinion, of the bible. I believe God is a loving, compassionate being and would not condemn anyone to a place such as hell. I believe that church leaders of the past have misled over the centuries through ignorance and not understanding who Jesus was and his true purpose. People have twisted the meanings of passages, read into them what was not there, and plain used or misused the bible for control. As I sit through church I weigh everything taught, against God's love. If it is in alignment with God's love, I feel it to be true. If it isn't then it's been misinterpreted. Because we have free will, we can condemn ourselves to a hell of sorts by virtue of the choices we make. These choices can make us feel like God has abandoned us. We are never seperated from God but it can seem so if we no longer choose to be aware of God.

Jesus' purpose was to teach us God's (version of) love. How to love like God. How to live with a loving nature according to God's definition. I believe that was why he came. He teaches us, through all the parables and his life, how that works. When we understand what that means then we know everything else is a result. The ten commandments become irrellevant, not because they're un-important but because obeying them is a result of living life according to God's definition of love.

Sin is a label applied to an act performed without love. The denomination defines it as a willful transgression against God. I refer to my definition in the statement above. It goes back to God's definition of love.

Modern christianity focuses too much on sin and the consequences of sin and not on what's most important, love. Like so many other things in modern society, the symptoms are treated instead of addressing the real problem. I recently turned down a nomination to the church board mostly because of the conflicts stated above. I'm reconsidering calling myself a christian since I feel I should be considered a follower of God. Jesus was the messenger.

Exactly, Traveler well said and thought out post!! What you wrote below right there says it all!!


------------------------------------

Jesus' purpose was to teach us God's (version of) love. How to love like God. How to live with a loving nature according to God's definition. I believe that was why he came. He teaches us, through all the parables and his life, how that works. When we understand what that means then we know everything else is a result. The ten commandments become irrellevant, not because they're un-important but because obeying them is a result of living life according to God's definition of love. 

Sin is a label applied to an act performed without love. The denomination defines it as a willful transgression against God. I refer to my definition in the statement above. It goes back to God's definition of love.

Modern christianity focuses too much on sin and the consequences of sin and not on what's most important, love. Like so many other things in modern society, the symptoms are treated instead of addressing the real problem. I recently turned down a nomination to the church board mostly because of the conflicts stated above. I'm reconsidering calling myself a christian since I feel I should be considered a follower of God. Jesus was the messenger.

LaffingRain wrote on Apr 19^th, 2007 at 11:45am:


Thanks for having my back!! Well I don't really consider myself really anything.. I am alittle everything.. I have pagan, some Pantheistic in me, some mysticism, new age, Christian Universalism, Buddhism, anything besides Christian fundimentalism..

rondele wrote on Apr 19^th, 2007 at 11:26am:

Alright, report me to Bruce than... I am sure he feels the same way about this as I do..

peace

pratekya wrote on Apr 19^th, 2007 at 4:37pm:

Great post my friend!
BTW how do you change the TOPIC!!!

Mactek,

You and I agree.  I also believe that it is empowering to bring to a poster's attention ways to post their point without offending the readers.  For me, the idea that DaBears brings up is that there is an ugly lie about hell, propagated by some.  Christ's message, and what it means to be a christian, a true christian are separate issues from the lie.  

In general then, the fact that some unenlightened christians threaten their flock with hellfire should not support the current title of the post.  

Some say "we are all big boys and girls, let the insults fly if they must, as it doesn't matter.  But that is what made me ask where you would draw the line?  People coud print an ugly comment or topic about any religion, race or creed....

That was my point in all this.  

As to the forum not being what it was when Bruce posted more, several years ago.....what can I say?  There are still stimulating topics that catch my attention.  Recently we were lucky enough to get input from PMH Atwater's input on Don' NDE thread, and I am hopeful to get other well known researchers posting on various issues. 

For me, this forum still grabs my attention.  I hope we can hear more from you as well in days to come.

Best regards,
M

DaBears,

You don't even know what "spirituality" means. You don't have a clue about biblical teaching, but you persist in spreading your anti-Christian venom on this site.   Being historically illiterate, you feel compelled to malign a whole religion with your ugly stereotypes.  You would never get away with this unless Moen and your pathetic New Age chronies didn't secretly give your bigotry a wink and a nod.  Therefore, I will stop my research on NDEs and soon cut short my other threads to make constructive use of you and your ilk as my whipping boy.  I've tried to be polite, but when a site lacks house-broken members, it will drip verbal diarrhea.  You bozos only learn through humiliation.   What a joke Moen's guidelines are! 

Don

Berserk wrote on Apr 19^th, 2007 at 8:18pm:

Don't tell me what I do or don't know! You don't even know me! I am not historically illiterate! I was raised Catholic and went to a Christian school! So, I know more than you think I know! Don't turn this into a debate on who's smarter or not! I am not here to comfort my ego.. I am here to speak my mind and think outside of the box! If, you and anyone else doesn't like what I write and think it's historically illiterate venom please be the bigger person and ignore it and report me to the admin!If, I don't agree, with your opinions I don't insult you! Have I once done that to you?? NO!! I let everyone speak their minds.. Because everyone is entitled to their own opinions! 



Yes, I may not have all the answers or have a clue about some topics.. Atleast I don't go around here thinking I'm God like yourself.. Telling people well you need to read this or that to know the real truth.. Who made you God and to say that I am not historically literate.. Maybe I got alittle of the truth that means the most to me and I want to stay with that... It's better to think outside the box, than to always rely on historical facts.. History repeats itself because it doesn't think outside the box.. That is how you find the real truth.. Truth is stranger than fiction mis amigo.. 

I don't care if this last paragraph doesn't make to much sense to anyone else, because it makes great sense to me and I know others who think outside the box may agree..

peace

Wow!
So much flac over so little. Maybe our sense of humor is getting rusty fromlack of use, hum?

It's just like life as a cave man - some days we gets da bears, and some days da bears gets you.


d

LaffingRain wrote on Apr 20^th, 2007 at 1:15am:

Yeah, those dreams sure did hurt.. But I believe they were just there to make me stronger as well... No, my father wasn't a minister.. I had a priest tell me that I was going to go to hell..

Nice, post Alysia..! If, people only knew why people rant about things that have hurt them...

peace

thank you NeverSayDie. well said, and what you say has been expressed before here. I'm sort of a record keeper.
To keep my focus positive, I'll just say I too enjoy the diversity and don't feel threatened by it anymore so I must have grown!
I always have gratitude that we even read each other here. our time is valuable to each of us, or should be, as our days are numbered, so we should thank each other for even paying attention to each other, my opinion.

but we don't in general acknowledge each poster for their contribution, whether it be yay or nay on a subject.  In my time here there always comes along a person here and there who is the exception to the rule. I could name a bunch. they leaven the whole energy of the board and you never forget them because they are the reason people come here, to gain a little tidbit of this or that, given away with no judgment attached.

It is my vision we will blend the yay and the nay over time, in a world wide situation, not just on this board, we will do it one by one by one.

I see a belt around the world of hands joined and all realizing we are one people and the lamb will indeed lay down beside the lion and the lion will not eat the lamb!

love to all, undistorted by hunger.

Never say die wrote on Apr 20^th, 2007 at 11:07am:

I agree, and what a great post! I will stop being a New Age ranter about Christianity.. Because some get offended by it.. Also, I don't want to create an us vs. them..

Sorry for starting a negative topic.. It was just my soul wanted to release it's frusterations that have been bottled up for a year or so..

peace

DaBears,

You don't even know what "spirituality" means. You don't have a clue about biblical teaching, but you persist in spreading your anti-Christian venom on this site.   Being historically illiterate, you feel compelled to malign a whole religion with your ugly stereotypes.  You would never get away with this unless Moen and your pathetic New Age chronies didn't secretly give your bigotry a wink and a nod.  Therefore, I will stop my research on NDEs and soon cut short my other threads to make constructive use of you and your ilk as my whipping boy.  I've tried to be polite, but when a site lacks house-broken members, it will drip verbal diarrhea.  You bozos only learn through humiliation.   What a joke Moen's guidelines are! 

Don
*****************
DB, welcome to the "threatened by Don" club.
You see, to date Jerkwater (aka Don/Berserk) has threatened to
"humiliate" and use as his "whipping boy":
-Spitfire
-Ra (I think that was his handle)
-Myself
-and now YOU, among others.
Reminds me a bit of Yosemite Sam, ol' Don
does. His arrogance is equalled only by his
ineffectuality..!

B-man

P.S. To Don, "spirituality" means groveling and genuflecting
before power, e.g. "O Mighty One, pleeeaassse don't hurt me,
I'll do anything you say!" *in a high, squeaky voice.*
Understand that fact, and you've understood Don! ('Nuff
said there...)

[Alysia:] "As far as Howard Storm choosing to send himself into hell..I think that's sick and masochistic. I wouldn't touch that book with a ten foot pole."
_____________________________________________________________

An ignorant and foolish statement!  First, when Howard had his NDE, he was an atheist and believed in neither God nor an afterlife.   Second, when his greeting party beckoned him to follow, he merely followed out of frustration.  He didn't realize he was out of body and had tried desperately to catch the attention of his wife, the nurses, and the doctors.  The discarnate greeters were the only beings who beckoned him and they seemed to do so in a friendly manner.  Only when they lured him away from the hospital into a dark fog did Howard gradually recognize their malevolent intent.  By then it seemed too late.  Howard was lost and had no clue as to how to return to the hospital.  The ensuing prolonged torment and excruciating torture left his spirit only barely aware that he still existed.  Finally, humbled, he soon realized that he must listen to the inner voice that beckoned him to pray for the first time in his life.  Christ rushed to the rescue in response to his prayer, taught him several chapters full of beautiful spiritual insights,  and transformed his life.  Howard became a pastor and  then quit to start an organization to feed and clothe the poor in Latin America.

Don

LaffingRain wrote on Apr 20^th, 2007 at 4:08pm:

Yeah, you misinterpreted for sure.. But what you just posted is excellent information about hell being basically an illusion and  PUL changes our reality of hell..

The book is pretty good.. It's just it has alittle to much Christian dogmatic views on the afterlife..